Published:
Cold Case Investigations with Detective Rob Wilson | Part 1 of 2 | October 26, 2021
Cold Case Investigations with Detective Rob Wilson | Part 2 of 2 | November 2, 2021
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Cold Case Investigations with Detective Rob Wilson
What makes a case ‘cold’? Who investigates them? How are cases picked for investigation after sitting for years? What challenges do they present to an investigator?
On The Murder Police Podcast, we really believe in moving beyond the story, and teaching the listener the how and why.
The two episodes that offer Cold Case Investigations with Detective Rob Wilson, do just that.
Detective Wilson will talk at length about cold cases, and how they are investigated.
In addition, he will be answering listener questions about the Melanie Flynn missing person investigation in Lexington Kentucky, that is at the core of the book The Bluegrass Conspiracy.
Rob will also offer terrific advice to amateur detectives that pour heart, soul and time into cases whether they know the victims or not.
So, download, listen and learn. As we like to say, letter in True Crime with The Murder Police Podcast.
Show Transcripts
Part 1 of 2
Det. Rob Wilson:
For every hundred murders that happens in Lexington I’d say the homicide unit knows who did it 90, 95% of the time.
Wendy Lyons:
Good Morning. The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
David Lyons:
Welcome to The Murder Police Podcast, Cold Case Investigations, with Detective Rob Wilson, part one of two.
David Lyons:
Welcome to The Murder Police Podcast. I’m David. In the next two episodes we’re going to take the listeners through a journey and an educational trip on learning about cold case investigations. To do this we have asked Detective Rob Wilson to return to The Murder Police Podcast. Listeners will remember him from other cases that we’ve covered. Detective Wilson just retired before we recorded this, from the Lexington Police Department and was the last cold case investigator when he left.
David Lyons:
Three top things to listen for in this podcast. One is detective Wilson is going to talk about what a cold case is, how they become cold, how they are selected for investigation, and the challenges in those. Additionally, we had asked listeners before that if they could ask a cold case investigator one question about the missing case of Melanie Flynn in Lexington, Kentucky, what would that question be? And Detective Wilson is going to answer those listener questions.
David Lyons:
And finally, we’re going to talk about Gabby Petito without really talking about Gabby. This tragic case of the young woman that was found murdered has been covered very well across the country in virtually every news outlet and by many other true crime podcasts. What we’re going to talk about in this case though, is the amateur detectives, because this case of Gabby Petito really brought that to the forefront of a lot of people’s attention.
David Lyons:
Detective Wilson is going to talk about how he feels about getting assistance from people in the community, and offer advice for people who do have their heart in the right place and are trying to make a difference.
David Lyons:
With that, let’s get to the interview with Detective Rob Wilson and talk about cold case investigations.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to The Murder Police Podcast. Today we are talking with Detective Rob Wilson. Rob, thank you so much for joining us.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, thank you very much for having me again.
Wendy Lyons:
David, how are you over there?
David Lyons:
Doing good. This is going to be a super show for everybody that’s interested in homicide investigations.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, for those listeners who have not heard Rob on our show before, he’s done two shows previously, which I highly encourage you listen to. But Rob, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your history?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, I’ve basically been in Lexington my entire life. Went to Lafayette High School, then the University of Kentucky. Then got onto the police department around 1998. Did three years in patrol. The next 20 years were in the homicide unit and I just retired last Friday.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, congratulations on that retirement.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Thank you very much.
David Lyons:
Yeah, welcome to the 15th of the month club.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, I’m looking forward to. I got bored the other day. I was stuck in the parking garage and was like, “How many hours is 23 years?” And I gave roughly five hours at overtime, generously, I think for each week. It came out to close to 75,000 hours that I’ve worked as a police officer. And it was just… That was mind boggling.
David Lyons:
Oh, that is. I never thought of it in that aspect, but that’s pretty spooky actually.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, we do have some that stayed on. I won’t mention any names. But look, guys, there’s some that have been there for 37 years. You could have done it, Rob.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Not a chance.
David Lyons:
Yeah, it’s not a marathon or a contest. It really isn’t, trust me.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, Rob, do you feel comfortable talking about what your next venture is?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, I’m just going to take some time right now and look into maybe doing some contract work for investigations.
Wendy Lyons:
Very nice.
David Lyons:
Well, tell us a little bit about that career. And that was a quick exit from patrol into investigations. I know back at the police department by contract you have to have three years, but back then we didn’t have a contract. So getting in that early was definitely a hat tip to who you are because they don’t ask you in early if they don’t think you’re going to work out. But take us through what that looked like on the evolution of becoming a homicide detective and how you developed in that.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, as soon as I decided I wanted to make law enforcement my career, being a homicide detective was the end goal. That’s what I wanted. And I figured I’d have to… I just assumed everybody wanted to be a homicide detective. And so once I looked into it I knew I had to do three years on patrol. Wasn’t really happy about that, but I knew I had to do it, and come to find out I really enjoyed it.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And to be a homicide detective you have to be a patrol officer, and an active one. And then one that’s engaged in your sector, your beat. That’s where I learned how to talk to people. That’s where I got my confidential informants. So it was essential. That three years in there I gained so much knowledge that I didn’t even really know I was learning at the time. Just interacting with different people, different races, different genders, different neighborhoods, different socioeconomic variations.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But the three years came up and an opening came up in robbery homicide. I didn’t think I’d get it. I was still pretty young or whatever, and I don’t remember how many people I interviewed against, but went through the process. And I got the call from John Dixon, I believe was the Lieutenant over homicide at the time. He called me up and said I got the spot. So I was super excited, and then I got really scared.
David Lyons:
Yeah, because you’re there. And by the way, John Dixon was probably one of my favorite bosses in my career. So a big shout out to John. He was an amazing guy to work for.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah.
David Lyons:
Well, let me take it back a little bit. You said that from the time you decided to be the police, answer two things. Why did you want to get into policing, and even more so, what interested you in death investigation? Because I think the listeners, for the most part in our audience, have that interest in this, wrapping their minds around that. Can you detail that because I’ll bet that they had the same interest in some aspects?
Det. Rob Wilson:
I never really thought about it, but I think if you break it down it’s the little boy in me that wanted to play cops and robbers. And then when I decided that was going to be my profession, if I’m going to go catch bad guys I want to go after the worst of the worst. I want to get the monsters. And so that was just my drive all along. And yeah, I’m really glad I did it because it was an extremely rewarding career.
David Lyons:
Did you use the word you got scared when you got in?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. I have a lot of reverence for that position. And once you go into homicide it is a steep learning curve. You make one mistake and maybe a killer gets away. I’m not downplaying any other unit, but if you’re in another unit that’s dealing with property or something like that, then if you make a mistake then maybe somebody just doesn’t get their lawnmower back.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So you’re dealing with… And we had sex crimes at the time, so if you make a mistake, collect a piece of evidence that you shouldn’t have simply by a mistake because you’re new, and that becomes inadmissible, but that was part of your probable cause to charge, eight months later you lose that at a suppression hearing, then they may have to drop the charges all together.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So I asked a lot of questions. The people in the unit at that time were fantastic. They had a lot of experience. James Curless, Paul Williams, Chris Schoonover, they were great. They really took me under their wing and I learned from the best.
David Lyons:
Absolutely. And talking about learning, and I think I know the answer, but do you agree, do you have a lot of spin up time when you get up there or are you pretty much thrown into the fire?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Thrown into the fire.
David Lyons:
Amen. And a lot of people, I don’t think they appreciate that sometimes, that you… I know that most people it’s just you’re up there for a matter of days and you land your first one.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, I remember one of my… It was a murder trial and I’d probably been on six, seven years in the unit at that point. The defense attorney was crossing me over an interview, a technique I’d used in an interview of a suspect. It was like, “Well, you’ve obviously had so much training in this.” And I was like, “Ma’am, I had no training.” It’s all on the job training. She assumed I went to schools and learned about how to interview and interrogate people. And that simply wasn’t the fact. You learned as you went. And that’s why I refer back to those years on patrol were so valuable.
David Lyons:
And that’s a good point too, for people that might be interested in moving into death investigations that are on the road now. If you were to talk to one of those people and you knew that was their goal, how would you sum up some advice to a patrol officer about how to achieve that goal? What do they need to do right now?
Det. Rob Wilson:
First of all, they’ve got to care. You may not be doing the job you want right now, but do that job to the best that you can. And that’ll only reflect on you, because as you know, detectives, when they receive reports they read those reports. And if you do a half-assed job, well then you’re known as a half-assed officer. So when you’re out there taking a report you need to treat it like it’s extremely important because of who’s going to read it.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And also we get called and it’s like, “Hey, will you all do this interview?” And we’re like, “We’re certainly glad to help, but why don’t you want to?” “Well, we don’t really do these interviews.” And Matt Brothers and I always used to tell them, “You do more interviews in a day than we do a week. Consider every call you go on an interview. You’re interviewing the victim, you’re interviewing the neighbor. There may be a suspect. Go ahead and talk to them as well.” So just treat those opportunities as learning opportunities,
David Lyons:
Yeah, grab it while you got a chance. And you make a good point but I think what stops a lot of people is that, you said too, that that position has an elevated status inside police departments. Sometimes I think it’s incorrect the way people look at it. A lot of people think it’s a prideful position or a glory position. And I’ve always said that very few things will deliver humility to somebody like that will. I think the only other way you could get humility harder would be to play Fortnite and let an eight year old beat you. Right?
Wendy Lyons:
Don’t be knocking on your stepson, Jeffrey here, come on.
David Lyons:
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, seriously is it… I think that the perception from the outside because of movies and TV is that it looks like some big dream job. And Dr. Greg Davis, we interviewed him a while back and he referred to that same thing in medicine, is people think that… They have a perception of it that’s not real. So that’s important things for people to know, especially if they’re out on the road, is to develop little skills early.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, and people come up and ask me, and it’s like, “Well, is it just like the movies, or just TV?” I’m like, “Maybe two minutes of it.” I go, “The rest of it is you’re documenting what you did. You’re putting your case file together. You’re talking with the attorneys, the prosecutor. You’re talking with your supervisors. You’re getting to-do lists ready to go, what you need to get done after the arrest.” Yeah, they don’t show that in the movies because it’s not sexy.
David Lyons:
Oh yeah, exactly.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But yeah, there’s a lot of work behind the scenes that needs to get done after you put the handcuffs on.
David Lyons:
Huge.
Det. Rob Wilson:
For example, the days of when you had to proofread an interview transcript and the interview was four hours long. And we had fantastic staff assistants in the Bureau of Investigations at Lexington Police Department. You get to be good friends with all of them.
David Lyons:
Absolutely.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And the thing is is that you still have to read that work because they’re trying to understand what we’re saying in that interview. But I remember hours with an ink pen going through that because it still has to be accurate. And you’re right, people from the outside don’t see that.
David Lyons:
Yeah. But yeah, you’re right. That staff, Brenda Estes who just passed, Sandy Jordan, who’s up there right now. We couldn’t do it without them.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Exactly. I stay in touch with Linda Cummins, and a bunch of them, and their names are going to fail me and I’m going to feel really bad about that here in a minute. But that’s another thing too, I think people from the outside that are curious about this world, I don’t know if they realize how much those people in those positions know about everything you and I did.
David Lyons:
Right.
Det. Rob Wilson:
They knew more than the supervisors did.
David Lyons:
Oh, without a doubt.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, because everything that went into the dictation tank and all of that stuff. It was amazing. The ability for them to pack that knowledge around. And of course, they kept the secret like everybody else did. They were amazing people for that.
David Lyons:
Another thing that always interested me about fact vs fictions, I love crime novels, fiction novels, the Pray series, the Harry Bosch novels. And there’s like, “How real are those?” And I was like, “A lot of them are fairly accurate until the end where the bad guy pulls a gun on the cop and the cop gets to kill him and it never goes to trial.”
David Lyons:
It’s like, who did it but at that point of the time of the shootout, do you have enough to charge him? A lot of times you don’t. So it wraps it up with a nice little bow, but in reality that hardly ever happens and you got to put the cuffs on and really defend your case in court.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Exactly. Dot those I’s and cross the Ts, for sure.
David Lyons:
So when you get up there and you’re baptized in a fire, you’re learning as you go, and I’m going to agree with you, that that group of people you listed would probably be the A team as far as developing people. I have no doubt because I got to work with all of them too. How did that progress? For example, do you remember the first case you got?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, I started out, I think as well I should have, I got assigned to robbery and I was a second on a couple of murders with Chris Schoonover. Megan Liebengood, we did that. I was his number two on that. I think that was 2004 and I got up there in 2002.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But yeah, my first case as a lead investigator in a homicide was Kelly Gray. We got called over to Venetian Road, over near Center Parkway. A female white with a gunshot wound to the head. It appeared to be suicide. Something just didn’t look right. The angle, the entrance wound was closer to the back of her head as opposed to the side.
Det. Rob Wilson:
As you well know, there’s never any perfect suicide scene. There’s always a question that a family member will be like, “It’s not suicide, it’s murder, it’s murder.” And you just have to work through that. So we pulled the two sons down to headquarters to do formal interviews to them. See who was the last time to talk to mom. And just through the course of the investigation their stories weren’t adding up. And we finally focused in on Kelly, who was the last one to see her. And Kelly had some mental issues. And we finally got him to confess that he had gone through a moment and believed he was saving his mom’s soul and wound up shooting her in the back of the head with the 357.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So that was my first one. And it was a good one to learn on. I leaned a lot on Chris. That entire night he was walking me through it and telling me, “I think you need to interview this guy next, because he’s the next step.” So I never quit learning from Chris. And up until my last year I was still asking advice. You can never learn too much about an investigation.
David Lyons:
For sure. And what a case to get too, because it sounds like you got handed a genuine mental health issue.
Det. Rob Wilson:
It was. I think he got the appropriate sentence. He was sent to a mental institution for, I think probably close to a decade, until the doctors deemed he wasn’t a danger to society anymore.
David Lyons:
Yeah, and people don’t understand that. Maybe we will do a show on that one time, because you have people that I don’t think they understand how hard that is to feign that and how the system has a lot of evaluations in place to catch that. But when you get one of those that’s a different challenge, a different challenge.
Det. Rob Wilson:
It is. You got a couple of extra hurdles to get over. The Brenda Cowan murder, a lot of people… Matt Brothers and I, he was the lead on it. We tried to interview the suspect and people came out, “Oh, he’s just pretending to be crazy.” And we’re like, “No, he’s mentally ill.” He truly was. This wasn’t somebody trying to get away with anything. He was having people speak to him in his head. And I can’t say I’ve never been fooled, but you recognize fairly early on when someone has a true mental illness. It’s darn near unfakeable.
David Lyons:
Right. And Brenda Cowan, by the way, was a Lexington firefighter that was killed in the line of duty by that suspect. And you’re right, it stands out. It stands out. Because I had them feign.
David Lyons:
I had a guy arrested and charged with murder one time. And I guess he thought after he gave me his statement that he should throw the mental thing in, and he started looking at the doorway like he was talking to his stepson. And I was like, “Okay, you all have this conversation. I’m going to go finish your paperwork.” And that one you could see a mile away.
David Lyons:
Well, how did you… During this career, and 20 years is a long time in that unit, tell us about how you migrated or got into the cold case investigation and how that was.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, the first cold case unit got started up, was it 10, 12 years ago, roughly? Chris Schoonover , we got a federal grant to create a cold case. And at that point Chris was without a doubt the obvious choice to be the investigator in that. James Curless was still the Lieutenant and Paul Williams was the Sergeant.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And Chris did great work. He’s so dedicated and so meticulous. I really admired him for it and I’d just sit there and watch him read in his office for eight hours a day sometimes, just going over old case files, old case files, taking notes, getting to-do lists. And so I’m lucky I got to watch him do that for when my time came around.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Chris did a lot of good work. I believe he closed one or two old murders. And then finally the funding had dried up, and we were always worried about staffing positions in the police department. I believe it became considered a non-essential position. And so they ended that and Chris continued on for a little bit longer, and then soon after retired.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And then a couple of years go by and Commander Albert Johnson, I believe in January of 2019, recommended to Chief Weathers that we reopen it. Chief Weathers gave his blessing and Commander Johnson asked me if I’d run the unit, and was happy to do so.
David Lyons:
That’s interesting stuff in the idea that, again, people in the community don’t understand, is that everything inside of a police department is based on budgets. And I’ve always said that they are a business. They usually take up most of the operating capital in a local government.
David Lyons:
And as much as we would like to believe that the police departments and the state police and the FBI are just like on TV where people are tirelessly pounding away, and they are, there’s a limit. And especially when budgets get tight. And unfortunately things like cold case do become like luxuries.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, it’s fringe. And you can say all you want, but the backbone of any police department is the Bureau of Patrol.
David Lyons:
Amen.
Det. Rob Wilson:
You have to have those guys on the street answering 911 emergency calls. So that’s what you have to take care of as a chief of police. You have to make sure the Bureau of Patrol is taken care of. Anything after that, then I think the CLEAR Unit is fantastic, the neighborhood officers. But it’s the people that are front liners in the community, those are the essential personnel.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Then I think the investigators come in. And then a cold case, because I think it’s very needed, but it’s not necessary, if that makes any sense. But certain spots have to be filled before you get luxury positions.
David Lyons:
Let me ask you this. How does a case get cold and what does that mean?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, in our unit we don’t really have any hard lines of when it’s cold. You could work a case for eight months and it still be hot. As long as you’re doing stuff or there’s stuff to be done, that primary investigator will stay with it. And even when it does go cold, as long as that detective is still in the unit that case stays with him.
Det. Rob Wilson:
I never solved my very first murder. It happened in 2002. Well, that was my second one. It stayed with me even though I wound up going to cold case, but it would’ve stayed with me as long as I stayed in the unit.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So the only time it really gets defined cold as coming to the cold case unit is it remains unsolved and the lead detective retires, transfers out, or something like that, then that case file would move to the cold case unit.
David Lyons:
Well, some people would ask, and again, maybe it’s not unreasonable. Why do they even get cold at all? What are the things that get in the way of working a case? Even if a case is hot, are there things that, as much as we may not care for them, that get in the way?
Det. Rob Wilson:
The biggest thing that will slow down an investigation by far is lack of community cooperation. For every hundred murders that happens in Lexington I’d say the homicide unit knows who did it 90, 95% of the time. But when you don’t have the community assisting, when they have knowledge and refuse to share it… The DNA is great and ballistics are great, but nothing beats witnesses cooperating with the police department to secure an arrest in a conviction.
David Lyons:
And it’s fundamental to our system of justice.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Is that… I’ve ranted a little bit and I won’t rant a lot today about how it’s actually part of your social contract, that if you want to live in a civilized society you have to dip in. And it’s frustrating because I know we hear it a lot of times, well, people are afraid to come forward. And it was my experience, and I don’t think this has changed, that that exists but it is not the entire piece of the pie if you break it down. Because there are people that just don’t because they won’t.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Correct.
David Lyons:
I can remember one time interviewing a witness that after we’d identified a suspect, and she actually watched a guy get stabbed to death with a screwdriver and get rolled up in a carpet and dragged out of the apartment. And once I took her statement… I actually just asked her politely, I said, “Is there any reason why you didn’t bring this forward before?” I just wanted to know. And her exact response was, “Because it was none of my damn business.” And I’m like, “Okay.” That’s not fear or anything, but I think that’s a problem that we need to have addressed because I’m pretty sure it’s killing the unit right now.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. I’ve actually had a murder, an individual was shot in a drive-by and his sister was standing right there and knew the shooter. And I get the information. I was like, “Oh, this is going to be a quick one to solve.” She refused to cooperate. And I was like, “Why wouldn’t you help me catch the person that killed your brother?” And she said, “I ain’t no snitch.” And I didn’t know what to say at that point,
David Lyons:
It becomes its own cultural phenomenon. It’s unreal. It starts to defeat itself. And again, there’s no rhyme or reason to that except-
Det. Rob Wilson:
Because.
David Lyons:
Yeah.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And when people bark at us for not being able to solve a murder you just want to point to that.
David Lyons:
Yeah, because I remember when I was in the unit and then I had that short stint of when part of the units that I supervised was that unit, was how many times people in a family would call and yell at a detective. And not always yelling, more out of frustration and say things like, “Everybody knows who did this.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes.
David Lyons:
And they were probably right.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes.
David Lyons:
But the only response you had was, “Everybody but us knows who did that.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes.
David Lyons:
So that’s a frustrating thing.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, and you get to the point, it’s like, “Ma’am, I’m sorry we haven’t made an arrest in this case, but would you please go talk to your nephew because he has the information that will give me probable cause to make an arrest. I’ve talked to him three times. He refuses to speak with me. If you have any influence over him I recommend you speak with him and have him come down to headquarters because he’s holding the key to the gate.”
David Lyons:
Right. There are so many binders up in that unit and all over the country that have names of people that are high likelihood. And again, they have connect the dot people all the way up to that name.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes.
David Lyons:
And that’s a sign of a very good investigation. The only failure is on the community side at that point to at least meet halfway and say, “Okay, I can make that connection between these two dots.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
And there are certain situations where I understand their predicament. I don’t live in that neighborhood. But not all of it is fear of retaliation. It’s just, I refuse to cooperate with the police department. So in a situation where, “Okay, I live down the street from the suspect. If he sees you all knocking on my door and you all come in for an hour, then I’m going to have problems.” And I get that, but that’s not the case all the time.
David Lyons:
Exactly. And I think that’s my thing with it that I’m trying to get across is that we can’t paint that with a wide brush.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Correct.
David Lyons:
That’s very misleading. And again, like with mental health, is even though you’re not a mental health professional, when you start meeting people you start to get an idea that this is probably going to be the case. And the same thing when you’re talking to witnesses and things like that, you pretty quick put together whether it’s a valid concern. Because we have had people, but again, it’s not the biggest bulk.
David Lyons:
There’s been shootings where there literally are scores of people standing there. I mean literally scores, and they’re watching what happened and when the police get there nobody saw a thing. And that’s the cultural deficit in that too. Not even the anonymous tip because you want the witness statement. But holy cow, just the tip, that launch, would be great.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes.
David Lyons:
Well, good stuff. Now when a case winds up in that status where it hasn’t moved for a while and you’re a cold case investigator where a department has the luxury at any given time to have a cold case investigator or more, is there training available for cold case investigators?
Det. Rob Wilson:
There is. There’s not much. The department sent me to one in Washington, DC this past May. It was very beneficial. So there is training out there. There were federal agencies, state police, local detectives, prosecutors, medical examiners. There was about 200 people there. It was very informative.
David Lyons:
Yeah, that sounds good because I guess, and the reason I wanted to back into that is that how do we decide which ones get looked at? And that probably means a lot to victims’ families.
Det. Rob Wilson:
For sure. Well, I thought I had a brilliant idea of how to approach that, but I never got a chance. We hit the ground running. What I wanted to do was… And Lexington’s a fortunate size city for a cold case investigator. There’s probably, I think 60 to 65 cases assigned to the cold case unit that are unsolved murders. But we also have a couple of missing person cases that we believe to be homicide.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But when Albert Johnson asked me to take over the unit my idea was to take a month off. Just sit at my desk. I’m not answering my phone. I’m not doing anything. I want to go through every single case file and separate them into categories. I believe these to be potential DNA cases, and set those 12 to the side. This has legs as far as I think with a couple of new interviews, maybe we can break through what the original detectives had already pushed close to the line. So set those aside.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And then maybe read the ones that are too old. Pieces of the case file have gone missing. The probability of solving them is really low. So I don’t want to waste too much time with those. I’m not going to forget about them, but let’s go to say the low hanging fruit first with the DNA.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Go through all of those, submit a bunch of lab requests and send them off to KSP Lab. Hopefully something comes back. And while I’m waiting on those I’m selecting case files that is going to be old fashioned detective work, knocking on doors and re-interviewing people, finding new people to interview.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So that was my plan. But it was funny. When Albert asked me to take it over, he’s like, “Would you want to do this?” I was like, “Well, on one condition. Don’t make me work the Melanie Flynn case.” And not out of any disregard for Ms. Flynn or her family. I know good investigators have gone through that case with a fine tooth comb, and really good investigators. And if they didn’t find anything I’m not going to.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And I saw Chris work very hard on that case. In fact, it was pressured from the higher ups to get some resolution for that case. So he spent a year or more running… He went to Tennessee, New York, interviewing people. So he put in a lot of good work, and me having so much reverence for Chris, he spent a year and a half on that. There’s not one thing I could come up with in that case file that Chris Schoonover hadn’t already thought of.
Det. Rob Wilson:
So I was like, “Albert, I think we’d be doing a disservice to all these other cases that I think have potential.” And he’s like, “I agree.” He’s like, “It’s your unit. You handle the cases like you want.” I bet I’d started that job and on day five I get a call about the Melanie Flynn case. And you get that feeling when you’re talking to somebody on the phone, it kind of rings true, God, I’m going to need to go talk to this guy. Before you know it I was sucked right in.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And we spent a solid six months. I traveled out to California. Some federal prisons. Talked to some individuals out there and just dove back into it. And it was really interesting. We’re not done. There’s still some things that I need to do. I keep in touch somewhat with the brothers of Melanie, Brad and Doug. I told them, “I’m not promising you anything, but I’m going to promise you that I’m going to look into it and I’m going to try and I’m going to exhaust everything we can.” So that’s still not done.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But it was kind of funny. We hadn’t had a tip on that case in years and five days after I say I’ll do this, but I want to work on these other cases, I got sucked in. And we spent months down at the Kentucky River with backhoes and ground penetrating radar. And so I could see how Chris got sucked into it.
David Lyons:
And again, you made a good point. It’s nothing against the victim or the family, but you have to triage cases. And I’m going to go along with you. I’ve never heard it put that way, but it was fine tooth combed. Over the years it’s never sat. I think that in the public some people think it sat-
Det. Rob Wilson:
Correct.
David Lyons:
… and alive and well. I’ve looked at it. Most of us, when I was commanding that unit and even when I was back in, all of us have taken a look at it, and a lot of eyes. And that’s not saying somebody could miss it. But they do get to a point. Most cases will get to the point that absent something truly new coming in, that they stagnate. That there’s the cold case element.
David Lyons:
On that case for sure I think that it’s important for people to hear that as sporadic as they are, as information does come in on that. For the people who’ve never heard because we’re making assumptions here, tell us about what we’re talking about. When you say Melanie Flynn, people locally will probably have an idea what that is, but what’s the overall, when we say Melanie Flynn, what’s that mean to the audience across the country?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, it got it’s fame with a local book called The Bluegrass Conspiracy, and it centered around corrupt Lexington police detectives. And we’re certainly not going to cover anything up. They were very corrupt. They were criminals wearing badges. But they were involved in drug activity to the cartel level, loose associations. There was a murder of a federal judge I believe, prosecutors, really scary stuff.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But in that, there’s Melanie Flynn was dating or had a relationship with a detective with Lexington Police Department, Bill Canan. That relationship went sour and shortly after that Ms. Flynn went missing. And the book talks about all the other stuff, the drug smuggling. But it also brings along Melanie Flynn’s cases. More than likely the Lexington Police Department had something to do with her demise. And it’s certainly a theory.
Det. Rob Wilson:
There are a couple of other theories. But that’s what we’ve been looking at. Chris spent a lot of time looking at alternative theories because everybody had exhausted the avenue to the Lexington Police Department. So yeah, there was just so much work that went into that case, and the case file’s incredibly large. Just to read it would take five to six days.
David Lyons:
And what timeframe are we talking? When did Melanie go missing?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Late seventies. Late seventies.
David Lyons:
So it’s been some time?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. And I mentioned Doug and Brad Flynn, they’ve had a rough go. And again, the relationship with the Lexington Police Department wasn’t always great with them and I’ve apologized to them. But it’s a new day and age and I promised them I’d do my best, and really thought we were onto something down at the river. And it still may be accurate. Just because we didn’t find anything doesn’t mean that it’s not accurate.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And when I mentioned I flew out to a federal prison in California, went to interview an inmate who was a former detective with the Lexington Police Department, and he provided the information. It was hearsay information. It wasn’t a smoking gun, so to speak. He’s like, “This is what I’d heard.” And so that’s what led us to the river, and that’s not the first time that that location on the river has been brought up.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, wait, I have to ask something. I didn’t realize that the person who was the inmate in California was a former detective.
Det. Rob Wilson:
He was.
Wendy Lyons:
Was he there because of this corruption or was he-
Det. Rob Wilson:
No, he ran with the people that… It’s no secret, Drew Thornton and Bill Canan were the main people in The Bluegrass Conspiracy. He was a detective along with them. He was arrested by DEA in, I believe, the early eighties for drug running and then a couple of more charges. And he was a three strikes you’re out. So he’s spending life in prison out in the federal pen in California.
David Lyons:
And that would have a sense of credence to it just because of the association. So I could see where you would go with that.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. And again, we talked to, I believe Chris and Mike Malone, who was with the Commonwealth attorney’s office, spoke to Bill Canan in prison. They came away convinced that he didn’t have any knowledge, because if he did he could parlay that into a pardon.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And he even says, “Boys, if I knew where she was I could blame it on my dead friend Drew Thornton and you’d all let me out of this prison, wouldn’t you?” And they were like, “Well, yeah.” He’s like, “If I knew I’d tell you because I don’t like it in here.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
So I think that holds a lot of credence to him saying he doesn’t know what happened to her. Because he really could, he could have got his sentence cut much shorter than it was.
David Lyons:
Gotcha. Well, I’ll tell you what, I posed the question to some of our listeners on social media several weeks ago, knowing that we were going to sit down with you, and asked does anybody have any questions about the Melanie Flynn case. And granted, it’s still an open, active investigation, and I know it frustrates people, but there’s legitimate reasons why these things aren’t shared. And we could do a whole other show on that. And I know right now I’m thinking of times when information leaks really hurt case investigations.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
So we know that. But I think some of the questions I saw that came through were actually pretty intuitive and pretty insightful. So what we’ll do is I’ll have Wendy read those to you and then we’ll take it from there. And just to help our listeners out, maybe to answer, because this is an opportunity people don’t get is to speak to somebody that’s been that close to it.
Wendy Lyons:
Hey, you know there’s more to the story, so go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons.
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David Lyons:
Lock it down, Judy.
Part 2 of 2
Det. Rob Wilson:
And when do you quit? Could you be five feet away? Could you be two feet away and you quit? It was so hard to give up because your thing is like, well, that kind of matches with what he was saying.
Wendy Lyons:
Warning: The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Cold Case Investigations with Detective Rob Wilson, part two of two, brought to you by Hero Industries, designing and manufacturing, uniquely branded products for first responders, government agencies and corporations.
David Lyons:
Gotcha. Well, I’ll tell you what. I posed the question to some of our listeners on social media several weeks ago, knowing that we were going to sit down with you and asked does anybody have any questions about the Melanie Flynn case? And granted, it’s still an open, active investigation, and I know it frustrates people, but there’s legitimate reasons why these things aren’t shared. And we could do a whole nother show on that. And I know right now I’m thinking of time is when information leaks really hurt case investigations.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
We know that, but I think some of the questions I saw that came through were actually pretty intuitive and pretty insightful. What we’ll do is I’ll have Wendy read those to you, and we’ll take it from there. And just to help our listeners out, maybe to answer… Because this is an opportunity people don’t get is to speak to somebody that’s been that close to it.
Wendy Lyons:
Okay, the first question that we have here is by a listener by the name of Jackie. She wants to know, “Rob, where do you think she is?”
Det. Rob Wilson:
I don’t know. There’s a lot of plausible theories. I don’t know, I really don’t know. Like I say, we’ve looked into several avenues. Certainly the river has been looked, at certain individuals’ houses. There was even a theory that because Drew Thornton was a pilot and that he took her out and either she died or he threw her out of the plane for knowledge that she had about their drug running. There’s also even a theory that there was an accidental overdose, that it wasn’t this sexy murder coverup, it was she overdosed and people panicked and got rid of her body.
Det. Rob Wilson:
As much as it’s frustrating, you can probably hear it in my voice, after the decades, close to 40 years, people cared about this case. They looked into it. Every detective picked it up, and I did as well. I don’t know. We’re not stopping. Like I mentioned, there’s at minimum one more thing I need to do to follow up on that may lead to additional information. But honestly, I can’t tell you which theory I believe in because they’re all plausible.
David Lyons:
I think one impression I had walking away from it years ago was, and I think it’s true with a lot of cases, that as you expand your theory base and you go wider and wider that there’s a point where I think you have to get cautious because we start to romanticize certain elements. And I saw that in some of the investigations I worked because you have to widen those, but it gets dangerous because the less… In my opinion, the less centric you are, the more risky that is.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. You certainly don’t want to put blinders on, but you do have to filter through theories that, God, that sounds amazing. What if they did do that? You have to look at the probability of it. And you have to investigate those, but you can’t spend too much time on them.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And you’re absolutely right. And the longer a case stays open, the more theories are going to get thrown at investigators. And we have to follow up on those. It’s just been so frustrating, and I can’t even imagine what that family has gone through. Have so much respect for Doug and Brad and how they’ve handled themselves. And even I’ve spoken with them, they’ve been frustrated at times with Lexington Police Department, as well they should have. But I just tried to be as candid with them as I possibly could.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And I’m retired, but I’m not giving up. I’ve still got some irons in the fire. And like I said, Brad and… I talked to him not too long ago. He provided some information that we’re going to follow up on. It’s just as long as the information comes in, it’ll be work. You can never promise results, but you can promise your work.
David Lyons:
Yeah, I can validate and attest to that, that it’s not sitting it, because in the time I was there, new things would come in and would… it’s never sat, to the point where it has its own conscious in the police department to where, when we find things in different places, there’s, I’m going to say an immediate reflection. Right before I left, we found some remains in a car in the Kentucky River. Do you remember that?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Oh yeah, I do. Yep.
David Lyons:
And I remember that the age of the car was from back in the ’70s. And from what I understand through coroner’s office, they’ve eliminated that as a possibility. But when it happened, I guess if people could understand how much of the front conscience is for everybody, because the fire department and we… Some of these people didn’t work there, I didn’t work there in the ’70s, but whenever something like that happens, there’s an immediate reference to Melanie’s case. And I don’t know if that comforts the family much or if the… Because I think the public doubts that sometimes, but man, it’s on the tip of everybody’s frontal lobe.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Oh, anytime we find remains, I’ll give calls, “Are you going to ship those to the lab DNA to see if it’s Melanie Flynn’s?” We’re going to try to get DNA. And what we do is submit it to NamUs, which is a database down in North Texas State University.
David Lyons:
I believe it is. Yeah.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. That has DNA results or matches from family members for missing persons. If we find remains, we can enter it into NamUs, and hopefully it matches up closely to a relative of that missing persons, and so that’s how we identify them.
David Lyons:
Well, thanks Jackie for sending that question, because it’s a good question. It’s not simple at all and it unfortunately doesn’t have an answer, but I think we’re all hoping one day we do find that out.
Det. Rob Wilson:
For the Flynn’s sake. Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Amen.
Wendy Lyons:
Before I pose the next question, why don’t you tell our listeners how old was Melanie when she went missing?
Det. Rob Wilson:
You’ve put me on the spot. Late 20s.
Wendy Lyons:
All right. Well Chris asked the question, “Even with a lack of evidence, what has been the most credible tip thus far?”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Goes back to what I was saying before. I think we’ve had a lot of plausible tips. The fact that we haven’t found her, I can’t put any more weight in one than the other. We’ve walked through a couple that certainly could be true, we just don’t know that so I don’t know which tip would be the most valuable.
David Lyons:
And again, that last one at the river, that one-
Det. Rob Wilson:
I had high hopes.
David Lyons:
Yeah, just because of the way that one rolled in, and the amount of effort that got pushed into that. But I love that question that Chris asked. That’s what I think I love about our listeners. That’s a very intuitive, insightful question about comparing that.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. And what you look for is a tip that has several other independent tips that match that. When you’re getting information from different sources that match up, you think you’re onto something. When you get one tip and it’s a sole tip, you’re going to look into it, but this is just one person. Who knows how valuable it is or whatnot. But when you get three or four tips from different sources stating the same thing, we’re pretty optimistic that it’s accurate information.
David Lyons:
Yep. And to go back to that again, too, one more thing is there’s a big difference between a tip and a theory.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
And again, the file is full of theories. And some of them are well intended, I’ve got no doubt. And we’ll move to that conversation in a minute about what people can do to help in these cases, but that’s an important thing is there’s a huge diff between having a theory and an actual tip. Yeah, what’s the next question, Wendy? That was good.
Wendy Lyons:
The next question is by Sandra. It’s another great one. “My question is how did someone admit to knowing where her remains were, yet after exhausting searching with ground penetrating equipment borrowed from University of Kentucky, using equipment to tear up concrete, ground, et cetera, how was nothing found? And were her remains moved?”
Det. Rob Wilson:
The fact that they could have been removed is a possibility. I doubt it. Let’s just say the theory that she was buried down near the river, probably do that in the middle of the night. It’d be really difficult to go back and spend hours digging up. And where are you going to put them? It’s pretty much taken care of. I doubt somebody would run the risk of being discovered digging down by the river. They had to that night, if that’s what happened; they buried her. They were crunched on time, had to wait until night and buried her and did the best they could. I seriously doubt they would come back.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And as far as the equipment, the ground pinning trading radar, we learned that there were two significant floods after Melanie went missing. Talked to several residents who were around at the time. So much stuff was moved, erosion taking place over 40 years. The information actually could have been correct and the remains were just washed away in this flood. Now, Dave, you know the river typically gives up its people. I would think if the river took it away, that somewhere a bone would land on a bank or something like that. But you just never know.
David Lyons:
And we’re talking 40 years. Depending upon the conditions and everything, what little remains would be there? And I’m not Dr. Emily Craig, but from experience, I’m going to tell you, they would have to be the larger bones would be the only thing left, femurs and things like that.
Det. Rob Wilson:
A skull. Yes.
David Lyons:
Exactly. And if it did wash up on a beach that can… If you get on the Kentucky River for the miles that it goes, and would it be noticed? But it does change shape; water finds its own, and that river carves itself.
David Lyons:
Just about a year ago in Kentucky, there was a river bank, a small river bank that exposed some remains, and that one generated interest in the Crystal Rogers investigation because it was in that area. I don’t think it connected to that.
David Lyons:
But again, there’s a body of water that rises and erodes and erodes and all of a sudden exposes a grave. And were launched on that. And again, Sandra, that’s a fantastic question that she asked about all the king’s horses and all the king’s men, and that you can do that, but you’ve got these other things in nature and time that are fighting against you too.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Before we go on, a big shout out to the Kentucky State Police. They were right there with us digging and sweating. RJ Corman provided a lot of equipment to us, free of charge. Yeah, they were right there with us the entire way.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And it got frustrating towards the end because this witness that I talked to in California gave us an area to search. And when do you quit? Could you be five feet away? Could you be two feet away and you quit? It was so hard to give up because your thing is like, well, that kind of matches with what he was saying. And we were already down there a month, two months, and it’s like, okay guys, we’re four acres into this search. Are we just going to keep going until Harrodsburg? It was really tough to finally call it quits because you’d hate to find out 10 years later that you were five feet away. Man, that was a tough call to pull the plug on that.
David Lyons:
Well, Sandra, thank you for the fantastic question.
Wendy Lyons:
The next question is equally as good, one that I’ve heard similar stories over the years, not quite exact, but Peggy stated, “I lived in Richmond at that time and was married at 20 years old. I worked at a gift shop inside Rupp Arena. I knew nothing about this. At that time, there was nothing but gravel lots across from Rupp Arena to park my car in. It was a huge lot, and I was kind of scared to walk in it. It now has a hotel in it and probably several other things. With property developing like that, a person could have been hidden underneath any one of those new buildings at that time and no one would’ve been the wiser. Lexington was a very scary place, as I remember it.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. Not saying that couldn’t be a possibility, but we really never had any information that that was the case. Was it Jimmy Hoffa’s supposedly buried underneath Giant Stadium in New York?
David Lyons:
Exactly. Yeah.
Det. Rob Wilson:
It could be true, but are you going to tear down Giant Stadium? Are we going to tear down the Hyatt? I’m not saying her theory is untrue, we just don’t have any actual leads or information to say that that’s true. But again, I look at the plausibility. You’re talking about a high traffic area that you would go to. Even in the middle of the night, they have security guards on construction sites walking around. I just think there’s easier avenues to get rid of a body as opposed to driving to downtown Lexington, roughly Broadway and Vine and getting rid of a body.
David Lyons:
You make a good distinguishment between plausibility and possibility, just like tips and things end up theories. That’s a rumor that had been going around for some time too, is that she might be under the foundation somewhere. And of all the jeezle Pete hundreds of rumors and theories that are in that case, it makes it difficult. But I love the way Peggy brought in that personal recognition of where she was in her life. And I think a lot of people remember it that way, where I was and what I was doing. Do we have any more questions?
Wendy Lyons:
We do. We have two more, actually. One of them, the next question is by our friends at The Lexington Podcast.
David Lyons:
Oh yes, yeah.
Wendy Lyons:
They want to know, Rob, “The Harold Leader reported about two years ago that, quote, “A man on his deathbed,” end quote, led investigators in a different location than originally thought. Who was the man? And what did he say? Also, how extensively was the Kentucky River/rock quarry searched? Any and all connections to the bluegrass conspiracy?”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, I won’t mention the individual’s name. He asked me not to unless this came to an arrest, and he recognized that he’d have to be a witness, so I’m going to honor his request. And I don’t know if we’re talking about the same person, I assume we are, but he was certainly not on his deathbed. He was certainly older, but I wouldn’t consider him on his death bed. First of all, I don’t know if we’re talking about the same person. And the connections to the bluegrass conspiracy of the Lexington Police detectives having some potential involvement have been investigated. Again, that’s a theory that could be true, we just don’t have the evidence to prove that it is or was at the time. A.
David Lyons:
And it came from the Herald Leader, and I’m pretty sure that that’s Eric and Jonathan. They’re going to be accurate on quoting something. I wonder if they confused that with Bill Canan, because didn’t Bill have cancer at some point?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, he passed, I want to say a year ago, so that could be who they were talking about, but he certainly did not provide any new information in the Melanie Flynn case.
David Lyons:
Gotcha. Good question, though. I’ll just recommend it. The Lexington Podcast did an excellent expose on the bluegrass conspiracy that I’d recommend people listening to.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, it seems like they have really good information.
David Lyons:
Oh, they do. And they’re thoughtful. I just can’t say enough good about them. They’re thoughtful and they’re sincere and accurate.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. I wish I had better answers for their question. It was a good question.
David Lyons:
We’ll probably arrange a meeting one day.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Sounds good.
David Lyons:
Because they would love to drill you.
Wendy Lyons:
Our last question is by someone by the name of Kat. Kat wants to know, “Who was the last person to see her?”
Det. Rob Wilson:
That escapes me. Chris [inaudible 00:17:09] would be the person to answer that question. But I believe she was just on her way to see her doctor, so it would’ve been a friend, her leaving her apartment or work that she’d talked to. And I believe was in the middle of the afternoon, so it was just a normal day. And was supposed to go to her doctor and never showed up, apparently.
David Lyons:
And I think, if I remember correctly, and this is loose, is that there were people who possibly saw her vehicle on Nicholasville Road. And we’ve got to say possibly because it’s pretty loose, but that’s what I recall too. She was on her way to a doctor, and that there.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And I would say that was probably accurate because I think the doctor’s office was on Nicholasville Road, so that certainly could be true.
David Lyons:
A little bit loose, but I just remember when they were piecing those early parts together.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, you can’t completely disregard it, you just can’t verify it.
David Lyons:
Well, I want to thank a Kat and the rest of the people that sent in questions. And that’s why we love our listeners that pay attention; fantastic questions. They would be welcome inside the homicide bay anytime toss theories around, in my opinion.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, and I think also with a lot of amateur detectives, as people like to call them, a lot of people nowadays with social media research and Google, et cetera, research things, and you have to wonder how many things… And I certainly watch on documentaries amateur detectives, if you will, that stumble upon stuff that really crack cases open that maybe eyes didn’t catch or maybe a new set of eyes catch or inquiring people like me just want to keep digging and digging until they find something. How do you all feel about that?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, as an investigator, all that you want in any case is information, accurate information. I don’t care where it comes from. But you can get overloaded with inaccurate information, and that will bog an investigation down.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Dave, you and I have talked about private investigators or grassroots detectives looking to help out in cases, and I’ve always welcomed them, anybody willing to help. Now, I can weed them out pretty quickly of who’s sincere and who’s a quality investigator or somebody just looking for their 15 minutes of fame. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt and bring them in to an extent. And I’ve worked really well with a couple of private investigators. Brian Engel, Al Bornet. Of course Al was a retired sergeant, spent some time in homicide, I believe. Yeah, they’ve assisted me in cases when I’ve been overloaded and there’s non-legal investigations that can be done, and they’ve helped me out and been a tremendous asset.
Det. Rob Wilson:
But yeah, no, I’m not opposed to anybody trying to help an investigation as long as they do it in the right way and are respectful and recognize it may not seem fair, but it is a one way street. What I’ve told them is, “I hope you understand we have to protect the integrity of the case. I’m not going to be able to talk to you about everything involved in the case, but you’re going to have to tell me everything you’ve done.” That may not sound fair, but that’s the way it has to be. And the good ones understand that completely and they still want to help. That’s a good first impression when they’re willing to do that and play by those rules. Yeah, I certainly welcome any and all help and information.
David Lyons:
And I’m a big believer in it, too. Sometimes we call that crowdsourcing. And I don’t have an aversion to it. I think that one thing that you said that I like is I’m to the point where I don’t even like it when they are identified either by themselves or other people as amateur detectives. I used the word grassroot. I thought about the other day, because Wendy’s always got some true crime thing on. That’s the only thing that the TV… They were burned in the images of the TV in the house. There’s nothing else that gets played.
David Lyons:
And I watched, and the thing is that they can be very resourceful, and they have time. And I think that’s where, when I look at, yeah, this has legs, as we would say, is that first you hit it: What is your motivation? And a lot of these people that I’ve seen that really do good with this that I see on TV, they didn’t do it to get on TV, they have an internal passion; something calls on them and speaks. And the ability to take and dig and dig and dig is so critical because that’s actually what kills you when you’re actually doing this for a living is the lack of time. We talked about that. I don’t even like calling them managers. They’ve got to find a better name for themselves because I think they can have a lot of value.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Because there are some good ones out there. I come across people all the time in everyday life. I get into a conversation with them, and we’ll be talking about cases and they’ll come out, “Well, did you do this in this situation?” And we just go down. It’s like, you’d be a really good investigator.
David Lyons:
Amen.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And he was a high school teacher. But I think it’s the type of person, the type of mind that you have, a certain skill or a curiosity that makes a good investigator. You don’t have to go to a police academy to get that. Now, there’s a benefit as far as the legal aspects of it, but there’s some smart people out there that I think would be very good investigators.
Wendy Lyons:
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Wendy Lyons:
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David Lyons:
Well, when we’re talking about this kind of thing where we’ve got grassroots people, amateur detectives, or people that are just helping and everything, I guess one thing to talk about is maybe the legal ramifications about where things start and stop and what it takes to get things introduced under a case and survive court. And one thing that brings this up is that at the time we’re recording this, the big hot case right now is Gabby Petito. And there’s a huge, huge motion by people to get involved in this at varying degrees. And I’m watching it, and most of it I’m thinking, okay, we could turn some help with this and everything. But then there’s a part of me that the worry wart is like, could people be crossing boundaries and areas that may not be beneficial to the case? When, in your opinion, if somebody was going to work on a case, which is great at the crowdsourcing, what are some things, as an investigator, Rob, that you would look at as far as when they brought you the information and when they brought you information that would make it play out best?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Well, let me go back to what I was saying where I talk to several people that have just normal jobs, a teacher, a banker, whatever that would make really good investigators, but they don’t have to go through an academy to be a good investigator, but you have to go through that academy to learn legal issues like search and seizure, crossing boundaries to go on a property. Even the best intended grassroots investigators could knowingly come across evidence, taint it accidentally or go onto a property that’s not theirs, and they’re actually committing criminal trespass. Even with the good intentions, you could potentially mess up a case. I’m all for anybody that is willing to help me in a case, but I have to talk to them. It’s like, “You have to be very cautious. If you get information, give it to me, and then we’ll work it. We’ll go from there. Don’t ever get information and go take that next step without me.” It’s not that I’m micromanaging, there are just certain things legally I know that they don’t. And I don’t want someone to find a piece of evidence it’s very valuable and all of a sudden it’s determined inadmissible on down the road and it gets lost in a suppression hearing. Even though they’re very well intended, they just don’t know a lot of legal steps that you have to take to secure that evidence.
David Lyons:
And that’s a good point. And I think that’s where my worry comes in for some people is I would never want to see somebody who’s so well intended get in a jam. Because a lot of people make, they make assumptions, like you said, like stepping on other people’s property or going into someone’s house. For you and I, that would be a constitutional violation, fourth amendment, and we would have the evidence thrown out, and we may not even have a job, depending upon how mad the boss has got, which is reasonable. For them, that’s usually called criminal trespassing or [inaudible 00:26:29].
Det. Rob Wilson:
Right. And talk about the good intentions, I recently watched that Richard Jewel movie. That guy had the best intentions in the world, and it turned on him real quick.
David Lyons:
What a great example.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, I’d hate to have somebody, especially with this Petito case, somebody with the best intentions, it’s so high profile that they could discover something and then wind up messing up the actual investigation. And it’d be awful for them.
David Lyons:
It would, because their heart is not in that. They don’t want to make that… I like too that you talked about bringing the information too, and I’d guess we could agree quickly.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yes, absolutely. As soon as you find it. And like I said, I’ve mentioned a couple investigators that I’ve worked with in the private sector, they know exactly what to do. “Hey, I found this out, let me know if you want to do something else with it.” And I’ll evaluate. It’s like, okay, let’s push this a little forward. It’s got some legs. And then we’ll discuss what needs to be done. But yet, they have to understand that they’re in constant communication with the police department, because the last thing we want is a case wrecked.
David Lyons:
Exactly. I think that’s good advice. I think it’s what people need to hear. And again, with the Gabby case is, for example… And some of the people I’m just going to be candid. I don’t know if they’re really well intended or not or if they’re just seeking 15 minutes of fame. But when you’re talking about poking and prodding around, connecting with people to me would be a problem in the wrong time too because, for example, you can run a witness underground very quickly.
David Lyons:
One of the things I see in social media with Gabby’s case is, and I guess this is where we need to teach civics classes in school again, is that people talking about, for example, with the person of interest or suspect. And I’m going to tell you, it doesn’t look good for this guy. There’s no way. But you’ll have people say, “Well, it’s time to bring the parents in and make them talk.” And I’m like, well there’s that pesky thing called the constitution. And even when they catch this guy… And I don’t know his name. I really don’t care to say his name on here. Even when they catch him, he can just invoke and it stops. It’s funny how I think people put that together. And I worry that if people divulge too much, if they lean too much, that that’s why it’s important to connect with somebody and to build a rapport. That’s got to happen. Communication skills are a big deal.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely. You mentioned giving witnesses and family members time to breathe. We talked about that, I think, last time with Chris. “Did you all keep in contact? When did you go talk to the family?” It’s like, well, we weren’t going to bother them that day. They were planning a funeral. We have other things we can do. Because we have to have their cooperation. You don’t want to bug them in a horrible time in their life to where it’s like, “I’ve already told you everything I know. Just please leave us alone. Give us it’s our time to grieve.” And I understand that, but there’s a tact that goes with it, so it’s very light treading.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And then you get all these other people that want to help out. And you may contact the family one day, but you have no idea if these other individuals, they’re getting on social media or bombarding them. It’s like, “You need to bring your son in,” and all this stuff. And you’re going to shut them down.
Det. Rob Wilson:
And you brought it up exactly right. It’s like, I believe more than likely… And I’m never going to Monday morning quarterback an investigation. I’ve had it done to me, and I don’t like it. Yes, I would agree with everything I’ve heard on the media, which doesn’t mean it’s true, that more than likely this guy had something to do with her death. But you brought it up brilliantly, if he hadn’t even run away or gone to hide, he could’ve just said at his home, “I’m not going to make a statement with you without my attorney, and my attorney’s recommending that I don’t speak with you all.” Where did he go?
David Lyons:
And you’re done for that moment. And that’s the other thing too is that in all of this is that what if you’re wrong? And again, we could get into a whole big thing in society now about this cancel culture and calling people out in public and everything. But what if people are wrong with the parents and whatever? But I did see some good things that there’s a few insightful people that I saw a little bit of a debate today about with the parents about parents of criminal suspects. And I’m not saying they are, but there are certain dynamics that happen in families that you and I, and somebody that’s been around it, even though we’re not crazy about it, we’d look at it and say, “I recognize that, and it’s a possibility.”
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, but do you have to tread lightly with it. And again, those are tough cases. My heart goes out to those investigators that are running that because they feel the way the entire nation, I’m using quotes, “knows” who killed Gabby. But it’s such a different story than knowing and proving.
David Lyons:
And that’s what I think they’re hearing all the time. And then again, you’ve got some people, well intended or not, that could be running the wrong interference out there.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, and sometimes it really bogs it down if you’re providing information, but it’s really misinformation.
David Lyons:
There we go.
Det. Rob Wilson:
You’re talking about they’ll relay information’s like, “Well, I heard this from this person I talked to.” And then you spend time, it’s like, okay, you didn’t hear that from them, they heard it from someone, so it’s actual hearsay. And by the time you track it down, it got started eight people ago and it’s not even close to accurate what you told me. You get that telephone game going on all the time where, “I’ve got this information. I know this.” “How do you know it?” “Well, I talk to Mr. Taylor.” “You talked to Mr. Taylor?” “No, I heard it from Mr. Smith.” And you go down that rabbit hole, and it winds up the information is just not valuable whatsoever.
David Lyons:
And there’s a lot of time wasted.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Wasted. Yes.
David Lyons:
Yeah. And coming back to Melanie Flynn, I think that there’s been so many theories, again, shot forward that have to be looked at.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
And that, I think, makes it very difficult, and hopefully with that. I guess summing it up is that definitely everybody would want help with any of these cases. I know I wouldn’t turn it away.
Det. Rob Wilson:
No. If that phone rings, I’m going to answer it, I’m going to listen to it, I’m going to write down the information, I’m going to check it out. And hopefully, it’s the last piece of the puzzle that it I needed.
David Lyons:
Yeah. Because we take information from all walks of society.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely. We have anonymous tip lines. You can call the Bureau of Investigations, 258-3700. There will be a detective there ready to listen to you.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, and I think also you don’t know when that one tip or that one amateur detective may have something that blows the case apart, so you hate to not take heed to every one of them because it may be that one piece you’ve been missing.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. You’re doing a great disservice to the investigation if you’re the investigator and refuse to talk to somebody that says they have information. And I’ve seen it play out to where this isn’t the most credible person that’s calling in, but they’ve got a piece of the story that I didn’t have before, but it’s corroborated by other pieces of the puzzle. This person may not be the most trustworthy witness or caller, but they provided valuable information. And the public doesn’t know everything we know, so they may assume. It’s like, “Well, I’m sure they know about this person. Please don’t assume that.”
David Lyons:
That’s where I was going to go next. How can people help? And again, I think it’s just great that people are getting involved in investigations, and as long as they understand some guidelines to protect them and protect the case and protect the family. For example, Melanie Flynn, what do you think we need to hear on that?
Det. Rob Wilson:
Oh, I don’t know. Anybody with information call. More than likely, if they call in the police department today with information, those detectives would take the information, probably call me or Chris and say, “Hey, have y’all heard about this information?” We just say, “Yeah, we looked into it. It wind up being a dead end. Please feel free to look into it yourself.” Because I’m not perfect. Maybe your eyes see it differently. Or we can say, “No, we’ve never had that call. You need to run with it.” Yeah. But just because it happened in the late ’70s, if we get information, I guarantee you in this day and age the Lexington Police Department will follow up on that information.
David Lyons:
And with any case. Again, nothing’s too small, nothing’s insignificant. It’s something that somebody thinks is in inconsequential can actually, like you said, piece something together in that puzzle to make it run a lot faster, so nothing’s small.
David Lyons:
I think this stands true and will be timeless, that there are very few murder cases where only one person knows, and everywhere. Because at some point, they’ve either had help, they’ve confided in somebody. We were talking offline about, for example, how many cases that we might have cleared with that old saying, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned where they’ve told somebody or they’ve confided or, as somebody that they knew took an article from them one night, like a gun and didn’t get an explanation. Hell, I’ve interviewed people that helped move bodies rolled up in carpets. And they were like, “I knew it was heavy, but I didn’t think.” And I’m like, okay, well I’ll hold a judgment in the back of my mind as to whether you’re telling me the truth. But there’s so many ancillary pieces that people are walking around with. And we’ve all seen cases that finally close and go because maybe something like a conscious gets to them, or maybe they get angry at somebody. But the idea that there’s a perfect crime is ridiculous.
Det. Rob Wilson:
We’ve worked years and years and years around murders, and you and I could sit around and probably plan the perfect murder because we’ve dealt with these investigations. But if you and I set out to kill someone and get away with it with all our experience, I bet we’d mess up 25 times.
David Lyons:
Hey, man.
Det. Rob Wilson:
There’s always a thing you don’t think about. I hate to say any murder is unsolvable, but again, we go back to the community. There is always somebody out there that knows about every unsolved murder, all they need to do is pick up the phone.
David Lyons:
Right. There’s always an integral piece that’s not being discussed.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, Detective Franz Wolf, who was with the unit for a long time, he’s still in the department. He’s in forensic services now. When he was brand new to the unit, he had… I think his first murder was a real stinker; guy shot and set on fire. And he worked at as hard as he could. And he came to me, as I was a senior detective, he was like, “What else do I need to do on this? And I read through the case file.” And was like, “Put it on the shelf. Buddy, you’ve done everything that I can think of.” Sometimes you just have to sit and the phone will ring, and that will give you the thread that you can pull the entire sweater apart with. Sure enough, six months later a phone call came in and he’s had it solved within five hours of that phone call. And it’s all due to community cooperation.
David Lyons:
And building relationships with people.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Sure. Yeah. It’s just treating people with respect in every encounter that you make with them. I mentioned that in my years on patrol. I got a lot of confidential informants when I was on the streets, and it just came from treating people with respect and helping them out when I could. It’s not charging them with a drug charge and hanging that over their head. That’ll work for one case, but once they’ve worked that off, they’re done with you. It really is about creating relationships in the community.
David Lyons:
That’d be a neat show to get a bunch of people together to talk about those wins, because I can remember real quick, something similar to that is I’c gone out with a woman one time that in downtown Lexington, and she was working; she was a street prostitute. And met her, introduced myself, just offered that if you could ever help me everything. And I got the typical salutation that started with F and ended with U. But amazingly enough, it was within maybe about six months during a brutal murder is I got a phone call from her one night on my pager, back when we had pagers, and she led me right to one of the suspects.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. And I think it’s different too with these people may have knowledge about drug cases or whatnot, and that’s not necessarily worth it to them because they do still have to live in the community, but a lot of the informants that I’ve had are decent people, and these murders shock the conscience, and they can’t let that go. There’s a couple that, after a while, they didn’t even ask for any money. And it’s like, “This is just wrong. This kid was a good kid. He shouldn’t have been gunned down.” I’m hearing this. It turns out to be true.
David Lyons:
And we find them in walks a life that a lot of people won’t appreciate.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
I think that was just an amazing experience in and of itself. Well, Wendy, do you have anything else of Rob on this cld case investigation stuff that you’d like to ask?
Wendy Lyons:
No. And Rob, who am I to tell you how to do your job? You’ve been doing it for so many years, and you do it exceptionally. I think, from somebody that sits in watches this a lot on TV, a lot, do take heed to what people say when they call in, it may… Like you already know, it may just be that one small tip, or maybe something that you maybe just didn’t think of getting so busy in your day-to-day tasks or this case, and then now this case is added on. And it may just be that one thing that you think you know what? I never thought of that.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. No, like I stated, please don’t assume that the information that you have is not valuable. We’ll make that determination. And I have people call in all the time. It’s like, “Hey, I just wanted to let I heard this.” And it’s like, “We’ve had several other calls, but seriously, thank you very much for the concern and the time that you took to call in and help out the police department.” Even if the information’s not valuable, I always try to go out of my way to thank them for their time and their concern.
Det. Rob Wilson:
If I could, since I retired, the budget’s tough on the Lexington Police Department right now, and my spot may not be filled. I think it’s an important part. Please don’t bother chief Weathers, because he’s a great man and a busy man, but if you all think that the cold case unit is very necessary, please contact your councilman. I understand times are tough, but I hated walking away because there’s a couple that I know I could have put down with another six months or a year. And talked to friends, it’s like, it’s going to be tough to retire. And that’s why, because it’s tough to let that go knowing that there’s somebody out there that could get away with murder if I retire knowing that it’s not going to be filled. I think it’s an important unit. And it’s not necessarily to solve them, but to the victims’ families that someone is still looking, someone still cares. I think it’s an important unit, and hopefully it gets filled. But if you find out it’s not, please contact your councilman.
David Lyons:
Yeah, and on a local level, that’s a good idea. I’ll tell people that I enjoyed working with the council members when I was there. We’ve got great government representation in town, and they’re extremely receptive. I’ll tell you this: In Lexington, if you’ve never reached out and had a discussion with one of your representatives in the council, you need to start doing that because you’ll find that they’re very receptive and talented, and they really care about the community.
David Lyons:
Taking that outside of Lexington, that could go across the country, is that we know that these victims, surviving family members and friends need that resolution. They need things move forward. Emphasizing that, even in tough times, about the importance of that is a big deal.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah. There’s good people that could certainly step into my shoes and continue it on and make some arrests and give the family some peace of mind.
David Lyons:
Excellent. Well, first of all, want to thank the people that took the time to message us on the Melanie Flynn case.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah. Thank you. Great questions.
David Lyons:
Oh, they were amazing. And when they would come in, I was like, wow, that’s good stuff that. They’re really thinking, they’re insightful. And I think that sums up our listener base, actually, is that people are looking for more of a deeper conversation on these matters, and they represent that well. And thank you, Rob, for taking the time to come talk. And congratulations again on your retirement.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Thank you very much. I always enjoy coming to talk to you guys.
Wendy Lyons:
Yes. Thank you so much.
David Lyons:
We’ll do much more. And then finally too, I think that we just need to maybe say a little bit about hoping that eventually Melanie Flynn’s case comes to rest and that the family gets that resolution and the community gets it because everybody… This town has tracked that case forever, and hopefully we get to a point where we put that away.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, nothing would make me happier than give that family some answers and some peace.
David Lyons:
Right. And Gabby Petito. We talked a little bit about that. We’re not done any shows on guessing what happened to her or anything like that, that’s being covered in other places, but it was a good segue into people assisting police, especially people that are, I think, doing valuable investigative work on the side with the time they have.
Det. Rob Wilson:
Yeah, as long as the relationship is established with the police department, then it can be very effective.
David Lyons:
Amen. Well, good deal. Well, thank you again, Rob.
Wendy Lyons:
Thank you, Rob.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons.
David Lyons:
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David Lyons:
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