The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 1 of 3 | Tuesday June 20, 2023
The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 1 of 3 | Tuesday July 4, 2023
The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 1 of 3 | Tuesday July 18, 2023
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Get ready to uncover the profound complexities of plea bargaining in our latest Murder Police Podcast. We’ll pull back the curtain on the labyrinth of decisions that define the negotiation and mediation process in high-stakes murder cases. You’ll gain a deeper understanding of the emotional rollercoaster victims’ families endure, and the weight of the decisions they make. We promise, it’s an eye-opening journey you won’t want to miss.
Then, we transition to the pivotal role of procedural justice, shining a light on its importance in providing clarity to families navigating the legal process. We also examine the perseverance and loyalty required in solving cold cases, as well as the invaluable role of a strong relationship between the homicide unit and the Commonwealth Attorney.
Finally, we peel back the layers of teamwork in handling cold cases, and the crucial role of experienced detectives in understanding case nuances. We share the compelling Charlie Sowers case, reflecting on the impact of the plea bargain on the family and the commendable efforts by the judge and prosecutor to ensure they were guided through every step. This episode is a testament to the relentless pursuit of justice, and the essential balance of a united team in achieving it.
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Episode Transcript
The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 3 of 3
00;00;00;22 – 00;00;05;07
Rob Wilson
She was. She wasn’t happy. And I get it because I did deserve more time.
00;00;05;10 – 00;00;06;02
Wendy Lyons
Yes.
00;00;06;05 – 00;00;26;22
Rob Wilson
But I think it was the right decision. The judge and the prosecutor, General McNeill, did great job of explaining the process and a potential outcome in reminded her of her original conversation with me. It’s like, I just want answers. I don’t want their live for us this.
00;00;26;24 – 00;00;39;28
Wendy Lyons
Warning! The podcast you are about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast. The murder of Charlie Sowers, Part 3.
00;00;40;03 – 00;01;02;04
Rob Wilson
We did, but we can’t play it for you.
00;01;02;08 – 00;01;36;09
David Lyons
Well, in the end, the inference will be because you’re stupid. Yes, absolutely. In today’s climate, is that whether that’s simple, you know. Having had at least one, I’ve had more. But I had a big one, one time where that was the case. Is that in the hard thing for the jury, too, is that if they’re linear thinkers, if they’ve got to know an end and the man was alone and a white in and I remember talking to a reporter who covered the trial and we were at a gym one day and he said, you know, if it was me, I would have had to known who had the hammer in their hand because it was
00;01;36;09 – 00;01;59;00
David Lyons
that and and Jonathan Goforth, the Tyrone in the nefarious black guy that never was there. He threw another guy in that never existed. But that’s hard for a jury and it’s hard when you’re doing that because when you’re testifying, it’s those are the nuances people will never understand. Probably when you have to redacted an act like that is a person doesn’t exist and you’ll look stupid.
00;01;59;03 – 00;02;05;21
Rob Wilson
You really do. Because like you arrested on that statement, it’s like, well, you didn’t hear 35% of it. Yeah. Yeah.
00;02;05;23 – 00;02;29;14
David Lyons
That’s why, you know, a lot of people don’t like plea bargains. But a lot of times you take a plea on who you feel is the less culpable. And that’s tricky, too. Yeah, because we put people, all of us who put people in prison before that maybe didn’t even pull the trigger. But you have to make a decision on Fisher bait because the power of that statement, even though they’re going to attack it, might get over those humps with.
00;02;29;16 – 00;02;32;29
David Lyons
Yeah, that’s what a difficult thing for a jury to put to put together.
00;02;33;03 – 00;02;52;24
Rob Wilson
It really is. And again, those trying those are nightmares. And, you know, going into it, when you make the arrest and it’s like, I can imagine this thing three years down the road, the interview being cut to shreds, you know, being redacted. And what are we going to be left with? And it was it was looking to be a nightmare.
00;02;52;24 – 00;03;13;12
Rob Wilson
But on there in two, they both knew that they put themselves there and one of them was responsible. And you can roll the dice and be like, the jury could be like, well, we can’t decide. So you can go free or they can be like, both y’all were responsible. So 25 to life for both of you. So there’s a gamble on both sides.
00;03;13;15 – 00;03;35;27
Rob Wilson
And this one, again, it was Charlie’s daughter. She was she was wonderful. When I explained her that I was opening it up, she’s like, I honestly believe that neither one of them went there to kill him. They went to steal his money. He caught them, he fought them, and it went too far. And she’s like, They’re young enough people.
00;03;35;27 – 00;03;44;15
Rob Wilson
I don’t want to see. Their entire lives are ruined for this so that was huge for us in like plea bargaining.
00;03;44;17 – 00;03;52;02
David Lyons
I was going to say that when you had mentioned the daughter, as is how she responded to complicity. You know, because the one thing everybody wants is full on murder.
00;03;52;02 – 00;03;52;12
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
00;03;52;12 – 00;04;06;00
David Lyons
And then when you start talking about manslaughter and reckless ones and all the different mindsets and stuff, people start getting kind of shaky because. Yeah, what do you mean, reckless homicide? Yeah. The law did all dictates that. Which so she I guess was okay with the idea, the use complicity.
00;04;06;02 – 00;04;28;05
Rob Wilson
She was in. I’d talk to her too. In that first meeting I was like, listen, so much time has gone by. Some witnesses have died. Like, I think I can show probable cause that they did it, convicting them as a whole different story. And she was. But at least I’ll have peace to know who did. I was like, You think you know peace until they walk out of a courtroom on an acquittal.
00;04;28;08 – 00;04;29;05
David Lyons
Yes.
00;04;29;07 – 00;04;51;14
Rob Wilson
There’s no worse feeling as like. So there will be the possibility of pleas for manslaughter. Sure. You know, I went ahead and told her that because I knew if it played out with the pointing the fingers at each other, that was going to be a real possibility. And sure enough, it was. So we start negotiating. And had you ever gone through mediation on a case, a trial?
00;04;51;17 – 00;05;11;23
Rob Wilson
No, it was it’s fairly new and I think it got brought up with COVID. They were trying to speed up, you know, because they were getting so far behind in the court dockets. And it’s a really interesting process. You’ve got a retired judge that comes in. The defendants are they’re the prosecutors, me and the family are in the courtroom and that’s it.
00;05;11;26 – 00;05;39;28
Rob Wilson
The judge, the mediator comes up and basically explains what’s going to happen. And we had a retired judge, Judge Adams, from Madison County. She was fantastic because it would take a certain personality to do mediation. You’ve got to be able to really relate because at that point, she separated the defense and their attorneys will go into a room and we stayed in the courtroom and she would come out and basically me or the the prosecutor would give a synopsis of the case and obviously she’d read through the case file and such.
00;05;40;00 – 00;06;00;17
Rob Wilson
And she would talk to the families like, you know, did some really good work here. But, you know, you all have some obstacles. And luckily I told these to share them beforehand. And so when she get a little like I just don’t things like sharing I told you that this was going to be a real possibility. You know, you wanted to find out who did it and we did that and you didn’t want their entire lives ruined.
00;06;00;20 – 00;06;17;07
Rob Wilson
Okay. And that’s why we’re here right now, because we could go to trial and we could get 30 years or we could go and they could walk out. I was like, So this is a negotiation that happens on every murder case. Sometimes they go to trial, but a lot of them plead out. And it really just depends on the strength of the case.
00;06;17;09 – 00;06;43;25
Rob Wilson
And because at the time that it passed and witnesses that had died, our case wasn’t going to be great in trial. But, you know, we were able to provide the answers that Sharon and the family wanted, and they wound up playing on a manslaughter. And again, she’s telling us in the family the facts of the case. But then she’s going into the defense room and talking to the defendants like you both put yourselves there.
00;06;43;27 – 00;06;58;08
Rob Wilson
What do you think a jury is going to do? Do they do do you think they honestly care who hit him over the head? You both went in there to steal so you could both get life or you could walk? I don’t know. You know, here’s some middle ground that I think that we can all work with. So it was really a fascinating process.
00;06;58;08 – 00;07;04;16
David Lyons
Yeah, I think the best part is having the victim’s family participate. Yes. Procedural justice is is the term for that nowadays.
00;07;04;16 – 00;07;05;04
Rob Wilson
Oh, I didn’t know that.
00;07;05;04 – 00;07;19;00
David Lyons
Yeah. Is that the whole idea is is clarity and transparency on what the process is instead of them. God forbid reading the paper one morning and. Right. And see a plea bargain was made on their father. I mean, and that’s probably happened in the past or.
00;07;19;03 – 00;07;23;09
Wendy Lyons
You know, did she know these people. Oh, yeah, she knew them personally.
00;07;23;12 – 00;07;42;14
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And she knew she was one of the ones early on that knew more than likely that Rachel and Edward did it. And that was so frustrating for her thinking that Dave and Chris weren’t working hard. But here’s the case file. It’s 300 pages long. They busted their asses on it. And again, they just they got to the edge and then Dave had to leave the unit.
00;07;42;14 – 00;07;54;02
Rob Wilson
Chris got pulled, you know. So who’s going to pick it up? Everybody else has a fall caseload. And even if we didn’t have a cold case unit, if a call had come in on an old case, somebody would have been assigned to track it down.
00;07;54;03 – 00;08;20;02
David Lyons
Yeah, that’s important to realize. Yes. They don’t get put in a vault and never seen again. They’re always accessible. And and you know, there I’ve said it before too, is that sometimes time does get on your side. As the Rolling Stone said. Yeah. Hands on your side. It’s frustrating. Yeah, but in the lack of having work ability in that moment to actually push the train forward, just like you have the penalty, you pay witnesses time, people’s memories change or they relax a little bit.
00;08;20;02 – 00;08;21;21
David Lyons
Time can be a benefit to.
00;08;21;21 – 00;08;48;26
Rob Wilson
Yes in again. It’s like some of the cold cases I worked or solved. There was like, Oh, that DNA really solved that. And I’ve now as a ticked off ex-girlfriend Yeah you know is have relationships break and with that the loyalty to that person goes away and especially in a situation like this where it’d be different if she wasn’t there and he told her she’s not in any trouble, but she knew she was there.
00;08;48;26 – 00;08;52;07
Rob Wilson
So she kind of had to It’s like, I’m not going down for this all by myself.
00;08;52;10 – 00;08;58;05
David Lyons
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Yeah, I think all of us have laid down more than one case for that.
00;08;58;07 – 00;08;59;03
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;08;59;03 – 00;09;01;21
David Lyons
It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing.
00;09;01;22 – 00;09;04;20
Wendy Lyons
So how much time did they end up doing?
00;09;04;24 – 00;09;08;08
Rob Wilson
Or ten years? They both took ten years.
00;09;08;10 – 00;09;10;22
Wendy Lyons
And they’ll have to serve all ten.
00;09;10;24 – 00;09;14;09
Rob Wilson
Well, 85%. Well, this may in one man.
00;09;14;09 – 00;09;16;02
David Lyons
One year, maybe it.
00;09;16;04 – 00;09;24;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah. MAN two is 20% so but yeah, believe is ten years. So I think yeah, they’ll do eight and a half years.
00;09;24;19 – 00;09;36;11
David Lyons
But these days it, you know, it, it, there was probably a not that we like, I don’t put like, put math to it but these days maybe that’s not a real deal. I mean because juries can shock the shit out of you too.
00;09;36;16 – 00;09;44;00
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Well I think we talked about on Schumacher how I was floored on that one. Yeah, they came back with a man one or and two, and he’d been stabbed over 100 times.
00;09;44;01 – 00;09;44;27
David Lyons
There we go.
00;09;44;29 – 00;09;59;03
Rob Wilson
Mike, How is that self-defense when you don’t have any wounds on yourself except slices on your palm where you know, your hand slid down on the knife blade and as just about said, I have a great respect for jurors, but on that one, they just got it wrong.
00;09;59;06 – 00;10;03;12
David Lyons
Yeah, that’s that happens every now. Fortunately it’s infrequent, I think.
00;10;03;13 – 00;10;25;29
Rob Wilson
But yeah but you’re right. It is getting tougher to get harsher sentences, right? Yeah, it really is. Like, heck, you’re getting more time for, you know, like drug charges in your typical murder because they walk in a lot of the murders do it. It does boil down to a self-defense type situation. You know, you’ve got maybe two gang members, you know, going back and forth at it.
00;10;26;02 – 00;10;40;27
Rob Wilson
And like he said, he’s going to kill me. I saw him out on the street. He pulled it, put his hand behind his back. I pulled out my gun and shot him. You know, there’s some reasonable thought there that, you know, this guy said he’s going to kill me. I know he has a gun and he just put his hand, you know, where I can’t see it.
00;10;40;29 – 00;10;46;04
Rob Wilson
Do I wait for him to shoot me? And so there is you know, I do get that street mentality.
00;10;46;04 – 00;11;09;19
David Lyons
Well, in in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, the Stand Your Ground or in Castle Doctrine. Yeah, very strong in the state. I don’t know what are some of the listener states are in Kentucky it’s a it’s a crime for the police to list you as a suspect. Yes. If there’s an articulable to self-defense is that you can actually have a misdemeanor if you commit that by putting them and accuse them in, you know, absolutely little reason to believe that that was a self-defense.
00;11;09;21 – 00;11;28;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And, you know, when James Carlos taught me a lot about that, we handled that basically by if we thought it wasn’t truly self-defense or there was some shaky ground to it, we just take it to the grand jury. Exactly. And let you know, 12 citizens of this city decide, No, I think he was in the right. Okay.
00;11;28;10 – 00;11;29;17
Rob Wilson
So to spoken which.
00;11;29;18 – 00;11;36;05
David Lyons
Which is how your community ought to be represented and absolutist in many ways, which is a beautiful thing. I think that’s the appropriate use of a grand jury.
00;11;36;08 – 00;11;53;26
Rob Wilson
But that mediation was and I had it again not too long ago on a shaken baby case, a cold case, and it worked out. That guy wound up get taken 29 years. Yeah, but he’s kind of dead to rights and he had some PFO stuff. So that’s what really jacked it up to 29.
00;11;53;26 – 00;11;55;22
David Lyons
But persistent felony offender. Yeah.
00;11;55;25 – 00;11;58;15
Rob Wilson
Sorry. I keep forgetting that everybody understands our lingo.
00;11;58;17 – 00;11;59;05
David Lyons
Exactly.
00;11;59;05 – 00;12;01;04
Rob Wilson
Yeah. That’s why we have Wendy here, too. And I’m like.
00;12;01;06 – 00;12;01;22
David Lyons
I don’t know if I.
00;12;01;22 – 00;12;02;17
Wendy Lyons
Knew what he was saying.
00;12;02;17 – 00;12;04;04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, because you’ve been around too long, too.
00;12;04;08 – 00;12;06;19
Wendy Lyons
I was just like, Huh, You know, you do before then.
00;12;06;26 – 00;12;27;27
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s like in. I don’t know if I’d be crazy about mediation on a fresher case, maybe, you know, because. But I do think it’s a good way. Especially my big thing is the victims families represented. And what a great judge to slow down and talk. And that’s a common sense. We all know that. And I think that’s what victims families are craving.
00;12;27;28 – 00;12;31;06
David Lyons
Yes, that’s the information I want to just make. Make some sense of this.
00;12;31;06 – 00;12;50;28
Rob Wilson
Yeah, In some sense, the commonwealth does a really good job with their victims advocate, right. Keeping families up to date on the status of their cases and how it’s traveling through the court system. So they do a fantastic job with that. But it’s at the finish line. They can be completely sane and supportive and then they’re like, what, only 15 years?
00;12;50;28 – 00;13;03;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah, you know, and I get where they’re coming from and, you know, they just don’t have the knowledge that I might have or the prosecutors about the court system and how it can go sideways real quick with a jury.
00;13;03;23 – 00;13;17;09
David Lyons
Have always left you so much room for them because they’re in a place I hope I hope I live every day of my life to the last without having to deal with what they’re dealing with. I never want to be in that box that they’re in. And so I always think we were all that way. That’s why if they got mad at me, I was fine with that.
00;13;17;09 – 00;13;18;08
David Lyons
Sure. Yeah.
00;13;18;08 – 00;13;19;20
Rob Wilson
You have to let them down. Yeah.
00;13;19;20 – 00;13;53;25
David Lyons
And a lot of them, I mean, is chisel. Pete, that’s a that is the worst thing that’s going to happen in their life, period, in their story. And so, yeah, I can understand that frustration. Yeah. You know, sometimes, like you said with that one jury thing and Schumacher sometimes it is just wrong. Yeah. Or we got we I think we were always fortunate where we were at with the prosecutor’s office that we had was I’d stack it up against anywhere because I do look across the country and watch other places where I think things are delta variant weekly and there’s a case on the West Coast right now and I can’t remember the name of
00;13;53;25 – 00;14;07;07
David Lyons
the victim, but there’s it’s an uproar right now because evidently there were witnesses to a murder and everything. And now the prosecutor is saying, well, the police didn’t do our head in our job. And the police were like, we took the case and they said, we’re just not going to do it. And now.
00;14;07;07 – 00;14;07;28
Rob Wilson
Right.
00;14;08;00 – 00;14;14;16
David Lyons
Now, who’s now you know what? Who’s missing is the victim’s family. Yeah. Who’s watching this thing? This pie turning very political, right?
00;14;14;16 – 00;14;21;16
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So and that was a wonderful thing about Brie Larson. Their arrest, his sole. He was never afraid to go to trial.
00;14;21;19 – 00;14;22;19
David Lyons
Oh, Lord. Now.
00;14;22;21 – 00;14;28;15
Rob Wilson
Now he’s like, I believe in this case, we’re going to go. And he tell the victims names like, we may not win, but we’re going to take our swing.
00;14;28;17 – 00;14;29;11
David Lyons
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
00;14;29;11 – 00;14;45;07
Rob Wilson
You know, and especially if they were, you know, everybody says, yes, I want my day in trial until you see the suspect walk out of the courtroom. Yeah, that’s what you think. And. Right, We’re doomed. Like there’s a chance, you know? But if you want us to go in, we’ll go in with both space up. And he wasn’t saying with Lou Ann.
00;14;45;07 – 00;14;47;08
Rob Wilson
And I know Kim Henderson is the same.
00;14;47;14 – 00;15;04;19
David Lyons
And you what? Just to make sure that we’re clear on this, You’re not bringing them crap either, though. This is not a reckless thing. You do it like it was with Ray and all of them. It had to meet what they thought was there, but then they had the reality. But that’s not saying they would ever take a flimsy case or something that’s weak.
00;15;04;19 – 00;15;06;07
David Lyons
Right, and swing the bat. They would never.
00;15;06;07 – 00;15;21;27
Rob Wilson
Do. Well, that’s where you have to have that great relationship, especially with the homicide unit in the Commonwealth, because we could we could take a crappy case in psych. Well, it’s your problem now, and I think that’s actually become a problem here. But it’s now getting remedied in the homicide unit.
00;15;22;00 – 00;15;37;25
David Lyons
I may or may not have worked for a lieutenant years ago that actually dumped one, and Ray’s lap that way just cared about clearance. Oh, yeah. And I’ll never forget that. We went and had the meeting in. I presented it was a circumstantial thing with an arson and a death. And remember, Ray looked at me and this was the neatest thing.
00;15;37;25 – 00;15;56;11
David Lyons
Ray, look at the heat. Listening goes. Davey, do you think this kid lit this fire that you know? I said, Kid, young man lit this fire that killed this guy? And I said, Absolutely. He goes, We’re on. Yeah. And I swear at you, I’m just gonna say, I’ll just say it. The lieutenant at the time looks over and goes, Basically what we’re saying is that David’s brought it over to you and said, You Charles, the fuck up.
00;15;56;11 – 00;16;08;13
David Lyons
Now. Yeah. And anyway, Ray looked at me, goes, Would you, David, leave and close the door on your way out? And what I heard coming out the other side of that door was almost it was profound. Yeah. Somebody got taken to the woodshed.
00;16;08;13 – 00;16;22;20
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So. Yeah, but it’s funny. I think Ray stole that line from him because he used that on me before I go testify is like, Well, now it’s on you, Junior. Don’t fuck it up. Oh, yeah, exactly. Thanks for the vote of confidence right before I go on the stand for 5 hours.
00;16;22;20 – 00;16;28;27
David Lyons
But he would never, ever take any of your work. That’s what I loved about that. And he would never take your work if he didn’t believe it. Yeah.
00;16;28;29 – 00;16;51;13
Rob Wilson
And that’s. You have to have that. And I always did as a detective. Like, I’ll take over a circumstantial case and like, I believe this is what happened, but we don’t have DNA, we don’t have video or whatnot. And I’d sit with Andrea or Kim or whoever, and like, now I see what you’re saying is, like, I’m on board because I, I want to be a complete team because I don’t want to hand them crap that they didn’t want.
00;16;51;13 – 00;16;53;29
Rob Wilson
And we lose. And they’re like. Way to go, idiot.
00;16;54;02 – 00;16;54;14
David Lyons
Oh, yeah.
00;16;54;21 – 00;17;12;10
Rob Wilson
So at least if you got that approval, you were in it together, right? You know, we’re all invested in this and we’re going to do our best. We understand that. Circumstantial, you know, And more times than not, they went down. Yeah, because the Commonwealth was fantastic at presenting cases. But yeah, I always wanted that approval just for on down the road.
00;17;12;10 – 00;17;20;01
Rob Wilson
If things went sideways, they could never point the finger at means like, you know, you lone wolf did this. But yeah, I just wanted to make sure it was a team effort.
00;17;20;05 – 00;17;40;08
David Lyons
Oh yeah. Well, as a matter of fact, Luana read Corn, who just left the office and Commonwealth attorney is. I’m trying to schedule her to come in and talk about what that’s like to do their job and and to be the first female Commonwealth attorney in Fayette County. Maybe for a lot of region of the state. Yeah. And and to talk about these same dynamics we’re talking about sex work and things like that.
00;17;40;08 – 00;17;41;16
David Lyons
So that would be that’d be a good.
00;17;41;17 – 00;17;42;21
Rob Wilson
Oh, yeah.
00;17;42;23 – 00;17;47;04
David Lyons
I’m also interested in at some point in bringing some victims advocates in and like, hey.
00;17;47;04 – 00;18;06;03
Rob Wilson
Dale, bless their heart. That’s what they have to I mean, they’re the ones that get the call. You know, they that families had enough that day for whatever reason. They had a horrible day and they’re dealt with dealing with them on the phone and talking them off the ledge. And a lot of times, you know, they’re irrational, but I can get where they’re coming from.
00;18;06;03 – 00;18;06;11
David Lyons
Sure.
00;18;06;11 – 00;18;19;26
Rob Wilson
Absolutely. You know, so you know that bless those victims advocates for what they have to deal with and, you know, keeping that person on board and explaining things again and again and again. It’s a, I would imagine, an exhausting job.
00;18;19;28 – 00;18;25;20
David Lyons
Absolutely. Anything you’ve got on Charlie Souers remaining questions.
00;18;25;24 – 00;18;29;01
Wendy Lyons
Well, was his daughter satisfied with the sentence they got?
00;18;29;03 – 00;18;35;09
Rob Wilson
She understood it. She was she wasn’t happy. Sure. And I get it because I did deserve more time.
00;18;35;12 – 00;18;36;04
Wendy Lyons
Yes.
00;18;36;06 – 00;19;01;18
Rob Wilson
But I think it was the right decision. The judge and the prosecutor, Jenna McNeill, to a great job of explaining the process and a potential outcome and reminded her of her original conversation with me. It’s like I just want answers. I don’t want their life ruined. So we’re actually able to remind her of her own thoughts. Originally, when I reopened the case, so she relented.
00;19;01;18 – 00;19;14;11
Rob Wilson
It’s like, now you did say that I agreed. You know, it’s I can. And that’s where we are right now. You know, I know it’s not what you want. I know it’s not what they deserve. But I think this is the best outcome we can get. And she understood.
00;19;14;11 – 00;19;22;21
Wendy Lyons
It. I think it would be frustrating if I were her that she knew all along. Like she just knew who did it.
00;19;22;21 – 00;19;24;15
Rob Wilson
And Dave and Chris try to.
00;19;24;15 – 00;19;25;02
Wendy Lyons
Prevent.
00;19;25;07 – 00;19;31;13
Rob Wilson
You know, they knew. But again, it’s that what you know and what you can prove that there’s a mile in between that.
00;19;31;15 – 00;19;43;06
Wendy Lyons
Well I think also that’s mighty big of her to say she doesn’t want the rest of their lives ruined, because if that were my father, I would say I hope they never see the light of day again. So that was my big bottom.
00;19;43;11 – 00;19;47;17
David Lyons
If somebody that’s my my family, I’ll just tell you I’d bail them out. Yellow bond and.
00;19;47;24 – 00;19;48;12
Rob Wilson
Hunt them down.
00;19;48;16 – 00;19;51;04
David Lyons
Yeah, we. We won’t have a trial. Yeah.
00;19;51;06 – 00;19;52;25
Rob Wilson
So I mean, they could get away with it.
00;19;53;00 – 00;19;59;21
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. Well, and if it got tight, they decided to Billy Richmond and escaped. That would be okay. Really?
00;19;59;23 – 00;20;02;22
Rob Wilson
Oh, Billy’s given out more than he’s caught.
00;20;02;23 – 00;20;03;20
David Lyons
Oh, he is.
00;20;03;22 – 00;20;08;12
Rob Wilson
Billy was brutal himself, so I love that we can bash him. He’s not even here to defend himself.
00;20;08;13 – 00;20;09;05
David Lyons
Exactly. You got to.
00;20;09;05 – 00;20;15;24
Wendy Lyons
Actually think Don Evans from the stories I was hearing, he probably took it. He took his share of ashes from Billy.
00;20;15;27 – 00;20;16;24
David Lyons
Oh, yeah, sure.
00;20;17;01 – 00;20;26;13
Rob Wilson
Well, that’s interesting, because I had a great run of like 20 years with great people. And you had a really good unit, too. Yeah. There is a you know, it’s some really sharp guys, and.
00;20;26;13 – 00;20;30;13
David Lyons
He was all learning everything every day. You learned? Yeah. I mean, every day.
00;20;30;13 – 00;20;48;29
Rob Wilson
You know, it’s a part of me really misses it. But, um, I think what I really miss was gone several years ago. Yeah, that camaraderie, like my team dissolved, like I looked up one day is like, Wow, I’m the last one there. Nothing against the new guys that came in, but we didn’t have those shared experiences, you know?
00;20;48;29 – 00;20;58;24
Rob Wilson
And I’m almost a generation older than some of those new guys, you know, and it’s like they’d start making jokes about me being old. I’m like, Wait, I used to do that discount. When did I become the old man?
00;20;58;26 – 00;21;00;05
Wendy Lyons
Yeah, yeah. You’re the oldest.
00;21;00;05 – 00;21;00;19
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
00;21;00;25 – 00;21;15;28
David Lyons
Leaving depends on your desk and stuff like that. Yeah, but I’ll tell you, the itch is always there because we’ve done some unsolved and we’re aware of some other unsolved. And there is a part of you when you listen that are in my mind starts registering just like, like a machine on what would I do with this? What about this?
00;21;15;28 – 00;21;19;27
David Lyons
That it did it and you start and there’s a piece of you that damn near puts a key in the car.
00;21;19;27 – 00;21;20;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
00;21;20;08 – 00;21;23;16
David Lyons
And goes out and starts knocking on doors and then you realize you don’t do that anymore.
00;21;23;16 – 00;21;34;18
Rob Wilson
Yeah, well, Chris and I still have to that we’re working with the homicide unit right now. One that I picked up. I think you’re the one.
00;21;34;21 – 00;21;36;02
David Lyons
Oh, God, Yes, yes, yes.
00;21;36;02 – 00;21;52;20
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Close on that. And we’re close on another. So we’re talking with the homicide unit and the Commonwealth. There’s some evidence issues that we need to figure out, but I think these two or two that will all go down eventually.
00;21;52;20 – 00;21;53;18
David Lyons
And I’d love.
00;21;53;18 – 00;22;07;15
Rob Wilson
To say, yeah, it won’t be us. I think Travis Holt, if they allow him, time is working cold cases, but they’re so busy right now. Yeah, I think for the last three years we’ve had a new record of murders in Lexington. Like we keep breaking it.
00;22;07;15 – 00;22;10;05
David Lyons
It’s a huge turnover constantly. Yes, of people.
00;22;10;09 – 00;22;16;21
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And that’s again, we talk about it five years. You’re just like really starting to feel confident about, you know, your abilities as homicides.
00;22;16;26 – 00;22;34;26
David Lyons
You know, I brag, you know, I retired three years ago, just a date stamp. This a little bit in my last command was special investigations. And when I’m out working across the country, as I always brag legitimately, that in that command, I had two shifts of narcotics detectives. Those were the most senior investigators in the police department, period.
00;22;34;26 – 00;22;45;26
David Lyons
End of story. Yes. And and I was blessed to have them because what I was seeing happen over in general investigations. Yeah. Was was that huge turnover. And I felt so lucky to have all that.
00;22;46;02 – 00;22;48;21
Rob Wilson
I guess Matt Evans just got hurt seeing every day.
00;22;48;21 – 00;22;59;07
David Lyons
Oh, yeah, exactly. And just latchkey. I mean, they were so good. He felt like that may take Repairman as the command. I mean, you just get him a new water found was the thing I could get him.
00;22;59;07 – 00;23;09;01
Rob Wilson
You know I was always amazed at the, like the high level work that Matt and Jerry did, you know, not just bust in street corners. We’re talking cartel busts.
00;23;09;02 – 00;23;11;13
David Lyons
Exactly. And how that had in a murder investigations.
00;23;11;13 – 00;23;16;11
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I think. Did you have Bill and Steve on about the Blue Sky Parkway?
00;23;16;11 – 00;23;21;04
David Lyons
Yes, that one I think is I’ve talked to mad about it. I think we’re going to try to work that out.
00;23;21;06 – 00;23;27;22
Rob Wilson
That would be a fantastic. Yeah, it’s because that was one of the few murders that I am aware of that actually went federal.
00;23;27;27 – 00;23;28;27
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly.
00;23;28;27 – 00;23;39;08
Rob Wilson
So and that was due to the, you know, the crossing state lines with cocaine and international travel. And yeah, he has a fascinating case, Bill. And Steve did exhaustive work on.
00;23;39;09 – 00;23;45;04
David Lyons
Yeah I think that that would match agreed you know to be a couple of issues Wolf to sidestep like a lot of cases.
00;23;45;06 – 00;24;02;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And I got one of my best compliments ever. It’s like someone is talking to us like we can’t decide if you’re the mad Evans of Homicide or he’s the Rob Wilson of Narcotics. Thank you very much. Yes, I just yeah, I think the world of the work that Matt’s done, it’s just I’ll keep I’ll read in the paper because we don’t.
00;24;02;18 – 00;24;11;25
Rob Wilson
Narcotics and Homicide aren’t even in the same building. Right. We don’t talk all that much. But I’ll hear something. I was like, How the hell did we get that many kilos? Him? Matt Evans Of course.
00;24;11;27 – 00;24;12;22
David Lyons
Exactly.
00;24;12;22 – 00;24;13;19
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
00;24;13;21 – 00;24;16;20
David Lyons
Well, if we’re there because you want to bail us out.
00;24;16;22 – 00;24;23;09
Wendy Lyons
Well, Rob, thank you for sharing this very interesting case. Great job on solving it. After more than a decade.
00;24;23;10 – 00;24;37;29
Rob Wilson
It really goes to Chris and Dave. At the beginning, they laid the groundwork like, say I showed you the work. You know, they have 400 pages. I have 35. So, you know, they figured it out. But time was on my side. Like Dave said. So yeah, all credits to them.
00;24;38;04 – 00;24;41;09
Wendy Lyons
Well, and ultimately, I think it comes back to what you said. Teamwork.
00;24;41;11 – 00;24;51;13
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And it’s yeah, one thing we’ve learned about cold cases is in again. I was thankful for being there at the scene. Even though I was in a primary. I picked up knowledge, I listened to Dave, so I.
00;24;51;13 – 00;24;52;07
Wendy Lyons
Had knowledge of it.
00;24;52;08 – 00;25;09;02
Rob Wilson
Because it’s so difficult picking up a case. You know nothing about a cold case. I mean, there’s so many questions that aren’t in here and they may not be relevant, but you don’t know until you go back and figure it out. It’s like, Oh, and you spent ten days, two weeks finding that answer. It’s like, this is crap.
00;25;09;06 – 00;25;23;19
Rob Wilson
And the original detective probably knew it, but knew it not to be important enough to put it in the case file. Right. So you have to do a lot of rework that runs into dead ends on ones you don’t know about. But on this one, I had an elementary knowledge of the case and that really helped get it going.
00;25;23;21 – 00;25;35;07
Wendy Lyons
Goes to show you. That’s why it’s important to have that teamwork and, you know, sitting in that bay, like you said, with everyone together, you at least picked up on some things that that maybe otherwise you wouldn’t have known or wouldn’t have been in the case files.
00;25;35;08 – 00;25;36;09
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;25;36;11 – 00;25;41;12
Wendy Lyons
Well, thank you again for coming to join us. And we can’t wait to have you back on your next one.
00;25;41;14 – 00;25;42;19
Rob Wilson
Looking forward to it. Always.
00;25;42;19 – 00;25;56;04
David Lyons
Yeah. Thanks again. It’s always fun to reminisce on some of that stuff. I hope the audience get to board with that. But but. But it is fun and yeah, and but I think most of our listeners, like I said before, that’s what they’re interested in, is what that’s really like to work.
00;25;56;04 – 00;26;15;17
Rob Wilson
With the everyday life. Exactly. Now it is it’s a and that was a good thing about my unit is like we knew when it was time to work hard, right? And we knew when it was time to play hard. Sure, sure. And you have to have that balance. And everybody was on the same page and you worked three days straight and there’s not a joke told you No.
00;26;15;17 – 00;26;18;21
Rob Wilson
And then you can take a breath and write. Have some fun.
00;26;18;24 – 00;26;20;14
David Lyons
Exactly. Well, again, thank you a bunch.
00;26;20;15 – 00;26;21;05
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;26;21;07 – 00;26;56;28
David Lyons
Good deal. The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at Murder Police Podcasts sitcom, where you will find shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast Merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.
00;26;57;00 – 00;27;21;00
David Lyons
We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.
00;27;21;02 – 00;27;24;13
David Lyons
And please tell your friends lockdown duty.
