BONUS EPISODES
Part 1 of 2 | Monday May 2, 2022
Part 2 of 2 | Monday May 2, 2022
The coroner. Countless TV shows and movies portray coroners, but like most entertainment, it is far from reality.
On “The Role of the Coroner with Jessamine County Kentucky Coroner Michael Hughes”, Wendy and David are joined by Coroner Michael Hughes, his wife Olivia Hughes and Jessamine County Coroner Cassie Robinson, for a personal conversation about what coroners do in real life.
In this Bonus Series, you will hear all about what it takes to be a coroner, and how one gets to the office, as well as the training that takes place and the duties and responsibilities involved.
But as usual, The Murder Police Podcast goes much deeper. We will also learn about valuable relationships, both in the coroner’s office and with other stakeholders, and the community. Coroner Hughes leads a true team working with his wife and the deputy coroners in his office, so much a team, many might be jealous.
Diving deeper, we learn about the emotional toll the work can take, as well as the spiritual gratification the work can bring, as this team provides after-care to an amazing degree to the surviving family and friends of those that have passed away.
Download these episodes, and sit down with us as we learn together.
Show Transcripts
Part 1 of 2
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I had the opportunity to see the death process pretty close many people that I worked on because I was on an emergency response team in the hospital. Many of those patients died as a result of their injuries, but I just felt like there was something that wasn’t always being fulfilled in those situations. I can recall several instances of medical professionals notifying a family member that a family member had passed or died. It was left at that. That’s all they had to say.
Wendy Lyons:
Warning. The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons:
The role of coroner with Jessamine County, Kentucky Coroner Michael Hughes, part one of two.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to The Murder Police podcast. I am Wendy.
David Lyons:
I’m David. Well, Wendy, we just completed a fantastic interview with three amazing people. I’m excited to get this out. I fell in love with it the entire time I started to put it together and post. Why don’t you tell the listeners what they’re about to hear in this two-part series?
Wendy Lyons:
Well, in this series, we’re going to go over what involves the role of a coroner, and I’ll tell you, I was really amazed at what this job entails. I had no idea.
David Lyons:
Likewise. I had worked with corners and deputy coroners for several years at the police department when I was in the homicide unit and had an understanding, a practical understanding of what it was like as far as their duties go, but in this interview, Michael Hughes, who’s the coroner in Jessamine County, Kentucky really opened my eyes to a lot of intricacies that I wasn’t aware of.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah, me either. I guess most people probably, like us, thought, and not to be disrespectful, but you think that the role of a coroner is just to come pick up the deceased person. Really, that’s all I thought it was. I learned it’s so much more than that. The fact that they really own that crime scene before anybody else does, I had no idea of that.
David Lyons:
Yeah, exactly. The other thing, too, is that we get the audience to hear is some of the technical things like what are the qualifications required to be a Kentucky coroner, and how do you get into the coroner’s office. That’s an interesting thing, too. The guests, we also, of course, had not only Michael Hughes, but his wonderful wife, Olivia Hughes, who is a volunteer in his office, which is what we’re going to hear, too. This is like a partnership that I’ve never heard of before. Then of course, then we had Cassie Robinson, who is one of his handful of deputy coroners. Together, they talked about the training and the certifications that they have to complete, the importance of relationships both in the coroner’s office and outside of the office, their general duties and responsibilities, and I think that’s what you’re alluding to was those things that I never knew that they did.
David Lyons:
Then I think, and this will speak to you, too, is probably the most unique thing is the aftercare that they provide for families and friends of deceased people in the wake of this death and how long that extends, and there’s even a really neat story of a family unification that would’ve never occurred if the Deputy Coroner Cassie Robinson wasn’t pursuing, assisting the family so much, and we’ll leave that up to the listeners to hear that.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah, and one final thing I’d like to add if listeners have not heard the podcast we did on the murder of my best friend, Angela Wooldridge, that’s how I came to know Michael and Cassie and Olivia. You just said how they stick by your side after the death of someone, and they really do. I just hope that our listeners tune in here what these coroners and deputy coroners and Michael’s wife put into this job, and it really is their heart and soul.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to The Murder Police podcast. Today, we have with us the Jessamine County Coroner’s Office that’s out of Nicholasville, Kentucky. Mr. Michael Hughes, thank you for joining us. How are you today, sir?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I’m very good. Thank you very much for having me.
Wendy Lyons:
Yes, sir. Thank you for coming. With us also we have Ms. Olivia Hughes, Michael’s wife. How are you Ms. Olivia?
Olivia Hughes:
I’m fine. Thank you.
Wendy Lyons:
We have Cassie Robinson, deputy coroner with Jessamine County Coroner’s Office. Ms. Cassie, how are you?
Cassie Robinson:
I’m great. Thanks.
Wendy Lyons:
David, you’re here again. How are you?
David Lyons:
Yeah, I’m a perennial favorite, I guess. I’m doing fine and I’m excited to hear these people tell everybody what it’s like to be a coroner.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, with that, let’s begin. Michael, again, thank you for coming. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your role in this Jessamine County Coroner’s Office.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, thank you for asking. I was elected to this coroner’s office for the first time in 2010, and I’ve been repeatedly reelected each time, and each term is for four years. So this means I’m on my 12th year right now.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, that’s awesome. You have obviously a lot of experience, and I know you’re an icon around here. Olivia, I know also you have a large role in this department as well. I’ve had contact with you myself not too, too long ago over an incident involving my best friend, and you were the first person that I talked to and you were exceptional and very welcoming and warming and speaking to me. So why don’t you tell me, aside of taking those intake calls and calling back friends, families, whatever, tell the listeners what else your role is and what you do there with coroner’s office?
Olivia Hughes:
Well, my role has always been a volunteer for the office, and I encompass just about everything that the coroner does, the deputy coroners do, and administrative work. I think the thing that God really led me to is actually speaking to the families and the decedent’s loved ones after they’ve passed away. I feel like I have made a lot of friends in doing this role.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, again, I know you were certainly a warm welcome for me when I was going through what I was going through not really knowing which end was up and you really helped to guide that in a great direction. So thank you for being there for me.
Wendy Lyons:
Cathy, I can’t leave you out. I didn’t get to talk to Michael, but you were exceptional, and you and I have spent literally hours on the phone talking. With your role, I’m assuming as a deputy coroner, and correct me if I’m wrong, you assist Michael, but if Michael’s not available, then you assume his role. Is that correct?
Cassie Robinson:
That’s correct.
Wendy Lyons:
All right. So I’m guessing, in your role, you also received the same training for what is that, Department of Criminal Justice?
Olivia Hughes:
Yes. We received the same training through the DOCJT.
Wendy Lyons:
So you have the same role as him and that you go onto the crime scene and you do investigate that scene and you determine a cause of death, I’m assuming. Is that right?
Olivia Hughes:
Yeah, that’s right, and it is an investigation. We have to investigate to figure out what-
Wendy Lyons:
What, where, how, why, who.
Olivia Hughes:
Yup.
Wendy Lyons:
Very, very neat. So you both, all of have really, really great roles in what you do. I don’t know how each of you do it. I commend you for what you do. I certainly couldn’t, but I know behind the scenes you do your professional role, I should say, but I think it’s notable that you all reach out and spend the time that you do with families and friends because people want answers, especially people like me. I love details, and I want, as you recall on the phone when you and I have spent, I want every detail and I want to start from the very beginning and I don’t want you to leave out one thing, and if you do, I backtrack and I get you right back there. So thank you all for doing that and being there for people. I don’t know how you do what you do, but I’m grateful that you all do it for Jessamine County here.
Wendy Lyons:
Now, Michael, I’m assuming, is Cassie your only deputy or, Cassie, does he work you like the only deputy or do you all have more?
Olivia Hughes:
We have a whole team. It’s not just me. We have a whole team that’s-
Coroner Michael Hughes:
We actually have three deputies, and the reason we have that many is, often, cases require the presence of two of us. We’re very fortunate in Jessamine County to have the assistance of the fire department when we need lift assists because of an extremely large decedent. Of course, we work hand-in-hand with law enforcement and emergency medical personnel. In the city, that’s Nicholasville Police Department or Wilmore Police Department, and in the county, it’s Jessamine County Coroner’s Office, but the other reason we have three deputies is so that we could fairly rotate the schedule so nobody has an excessively large amount of call days. When we do call, our deputies don’t have to remain in the office. They can go about their lives, whatever they want to do, and they stay in contact by telephone with our central dispatch office.
David Lyons:
Who are the other deputies? What are their names so we can get them on the record? I think people would be interested to know.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Other than Cassie, we have Stephanie Manley and Paul Warner.
David Lyons:
Gotcha. Of course, they’ve had the same training through department, DOCJT, correct?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Yes, absolutely.
David Lyons:
So tell me a little bit, too, about when you said call days and, Cassie, jump in here, too. What’s that look like because, like you said, they don’t have to be in the office. They can be bouncing around in their normal life. What’s a typical period look like when somebody’s on call?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I think I’m going to let Cassie answer that because she’s on call more than I am. I make myself available to all the deputies every single day that I possibly can. I, therefore, don’t take a routine call pattern. I feel that it’s more appropriate for me to make sure that what they’re doing is what we need to have done and to follow up with them, but I also try to get involved in a situation where we have a special type of a case such as an infant death that requires a bit more investigation. That’s not to say that my deputies can’t do that, but at that point, I go there to assist them.
David Lyons:
That makes sense. Back in the business, we call those red balls, the ones that we’re going to need more attention and need everything. I think if I’m tracking you right, I like the way you do that because the problem, too, that if the boss is there all the time, people don’t learn. That’s probably a really good way. Plus, let’s all be honest. Most of us don’t want the boss breathing down our neck when we work, and I’m not saying that goes on with you all, but I think we’re all human beings when it comes to that.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I have to agree with that. I’d like to throw a plug in for all my deputies because we have such a camaraderie between them that they work together so well and I’ve never experienced this before in this office, but of these three deputies, they’re all willing to help each other even if they’re not on call. They’ll make themselves available to go with the one that is on call. That’s almost just unheard of for people to want to do that, to want to do that, take on that extra work load, but they’re also involved and interested in what we do, and they’ve seen the results of being there for families the way they can bless families with their conversation, with their prayer, with answered questions. I think you found out that even with Cassie, she stayed in touch by telephone with Wendy, and that’s nothing really different for Cassie. It’s just typical for the way we operate.
David Lyons:
That takes service to a whole different level, right? Servant leadership, for sure, and that’s commendable.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Absolutely. Thank you for recognizing that.
David Lyons:
Because the whole thing when people have a loss is just a dark avenue and we’ve discussed it on this podcast many times through the role of victim advocacy when you represent surviving victims, especially in violent crime, but in any kind of death, the confusion that sets in and the idea that they need somebody to walk them through, that’s excellent work.
David Lyons:
I’ll compliment you on this, too. What you’re describing is an excellent team and teams just don’t happen. Teams are made up of people that have a strong why, the same goals and objectives, and the leadership that lets them form into a team. So I agree. You don’t see good teams everywhere you go.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
That’s true. That’s true.
David Lyons:
In my career, I can count them less than all the fingers on one hand, and I always tell, “When you’re in a good team environment, eat it up and enjoy it because you don’t know when you’re going to get it again.”
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
It does make work fun. Cassie, does it make it more enjoyable?
Olivia Hughes:
Absolutely, and I also think that we have a good team, too, because Michael’s been a great leader. When you were talking about not having your boss breathing down your neck and giving you room to grow and learn, that’s exactly what Michael did. I mean, I learned the foundation of an investigation, and then when it was time to get out of the nest, he would just say, “Go ahead. Go on your own. You’ve got it,” but he’s always there. Even to this day, if I have a question, it could be something really trivial, he’ll listen and give me a very educated answer, and he’s built my confidence through this whole process as the years go by. I think that’s because he’s let us get out and learn and figure it out.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, thank you.
Olivia Hughes:
You’re welcome.
David Lyons:
Yeah. That’s important things. Well, and let me run, too, when we’re talking about the team because, Olivia, make sure, I don’t know if we really glazed over this or not, but if the audience is really clear, Michael and Olivia are married. Did we really cover that in the beginning or-
Wendy Lyons:
Well, I did say his wife, but we didn’t get into that, and I know where you’re going. I’m wondering the same. How is it to be married to Michael, to a coroner that has a job like this? Is that what you’re wondering?
David Lyons:
Yeah, and also as far as the team because during the intros, I didn’t know you were a volunteer, which I was blown away with. I think it’s a neat thing. You definitely are part of that team, too. So tell us a little bit about what it’s like to be married to somebody that has a job like this with the weight that comes with it and then more so, I’d like to learn more about how you partner with that so well and get so deeply involved.
Olivia Hughes:
Well, we partner so well because since we’ve been married, we’ve always been a team in each corporation or business that we’ve operated, and the first one being, we were on call 24/7 just much like the coroner’s office, 365 days a year, and we had to be a team together in order to run that smoothly and effectively, and be available for those living patients that we were responsible for.
Olivia Hughes:
As he journeyed into the coroner’s, there really wasn’t much difference in our time spent away from each other because I became part of that team as a volunteer assisting Michael in whatever realm that he needed assistance in, and having spending so much years together in other businesses, we both could almost tell you what the other person’s thinking or going to say next.
Olivia Hughes:
Being available 24/7 is very a difficult situation for all of us, not just me and Michael, but the other deputies because you get up at 3:00 in the morning and take a call and then you finish that death call and then you go onto your other job that you have to be in at maybe 9:00 in the morning or whatever time, but Michael and I have just tried to smooth things out the best we can and play off of each other. I think that’s what has made it work so well.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I think what she’s just described you is the fact that she’s smarter and brighter than I am, and everything I get into would probably fail if I didn’t have her standing there backing me up and showing me the right way to go.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, speaking of that past career, why don’t you share a little bit about that? You said you all did this, whatever this job is, also full time. What was that job?
Wendy Lyons:
We owned Lane Medical Incorporated, which was a durable medical equipment company. Our main focus was on oxygen patients that we supplied in-patients homes via doctor’s prescription, and with putting that oxygen unit in a person’s home, we also had to make sure that they had a backup system in case there was a power failure or a malfunction of the machine.
Wendy Lyons:
It was our job in the middle of the night if someone called and said their power was down or the machine was malfunctioning that we had to get up and go out to their home and do the repair or reteach them how to use the backup system for their oxygen. So we did that for about 25 years and are still doing that same 24/7, 365 days a year, which a lot of people don’t understand you’ll miss a lot of holidays, you’ll miss a lot of vacations, you’ll miss a lot of those special things in your family’s lives because when you’re on call, duty calls.
David Lyons:
Not only do you miss those things, Olivia, but the weight you pack because, again, in the business you’re in is you’re not there because everything’s going terrific. I remember I had somebody in training say that one time, same thing with police. You’re not going to somebody’s house because I still remember Billy Fryer said this, “You’re not going to somebody’s house because their kid had a birthday. You just went to their house because they woke up and their child was dead.” You’re missing those things and I’ve lived that for a long time. I can tell you now I really don’t miss it, and the 15th of the Month Club is a wonderful place to be as a retiree, but it’s not just that, it’s the emotional burden that comes with that and carrying that there. That’s a big-
Olivia Hughes:
Absolutely. Your brain is constantly thinking when is the phone going to ring, and you have to be prepared to go. You can’t spend 40 or 50 minutes and say, “I’ll be there when I get there.” You have to just pick up and go.
David Lyons:
Exactly. It’s much more than just moving people around, and even more than the investigation that Cassie talked about of dotting those Is and crossing those Ts, and what we’ll continue to talk more about, too, is how you all minister to those people that are left behind and actually take them through that dark period as best you can, which is good stuff.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
That business that she was talking about was more or less a mom and pop operation. We would have a couple of young people work with us to help us make some deliveries, but on the other hand, most of those calls, the emergency calls were done by us. So it really was being on that call situation or system for us 24/7.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I’d like to throw in because I know it’s going to be a question you’re going to be curious about, that probably was the biggest preparation that my wife had for the coroner’s office because she learned compassion, how to express her compassion, and sympathy, and understanding, and sharing, and love for people because we had to do the same thing. We would get to know our patients so well because we went into their home every month to check on their oxygen equipment, and we would have dinner with some of them, and we would just sit on the porch and talk.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So many times we had to attend funerals for those very people that we got to know, which is very similar to what we do in the coroner’s office. So that was a preparation in and of itself in dealing with the sorrow and whether it’s grief or just despair of not knowing what to do and being able to be there to answer those questions for people when they don’t know what to do next.
David Lyons:
Good point. Sometimes we’re preparing ourselves for things we don’t know we’re preparing ourselves for, and then it pays off. That’s providence, for sure.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Yeah. Well let’s shift a little bit if it’s okay. Where we’re going to next is you talked about doing that, starting with Michael, when did you decide that, “Hey, I want to be a county coroner,” and was there something that moved you in that direction, and then what did you start doing to get ready to run for that office because that’s something we’re going to cover, too, is that we’ve talked about that before that Kentucky coroners are elected.
David Lyons:
One of the reasons I’m really pleased to do the podcast with you is I know an election is upon us, and we’ll talk about that more through the show and that you’re running for reelection again, and this is a good opportunity to hear more about you and your family and your staff, your fantastic staff. What moved you to become a coroner? Was it one thing or several?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I think it was a culmination of a growth process from my medical experience, which began in the United States Navy, where I was a hospital corpsman. It’s the name for a medic in the Navy. We also provided service to the Marine Corps because as most people know, the Marine Corps is a branch of the Navy. So that’s how I ended up being attached to two different branches, but throughout that, I got to serve and work with and help heal and treat veterans who were wounded in Vietnam. Some of them were my friends, people that I actually went to hospital corps school with and they got sent to Vietnam.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I didn’t, fortunately, but I was there for quite a few of them when they returned, Great Lakes Naval Hospital, and several other places. I had the opportunity to see the death process pretty close many people that I worked on because I was on an emergency response team in the hospital. Many of those patients died as a result of their injuries, but I just felt like there was something that wasn’t always being fulfilled in those situations.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I can recall several instances of medical professionals notifying a family member that a family member had passed or died. It was left at that. That’s all they had to say, “Well, he didn’t make it,” or “Sorry, we did everything we could do,” or “There was nothing else we could do. Sorry. Sorry for your loss,” and then disappear.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I remember being able to look in people’s eyes, people’s faces that some would cry, some wouldn’t because they were in shock, but it was always a feeling to me that they were looking around saying, “What comes next? What do I do next? What am I supposed to do? I’ve never been in this situation before,” especially a young brand new widow, and I wasn’t in a position at that time as a corpsman to approach that person. That was the doctor’s “role” to do that.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I thought, “There’s got to be a better way. Surely, everybody isn’t just dropping this like this and letting these people flounder around.” I just felt if I ever have an opportunity to be on the other side of that and do it the right way, I just felt I have an inherent ability to do it the right way. Nobody trained me. Nobody taught me what I need to do or say or put an arm around somebody or give them the biggest hug I’ve ever given anybody. It’s just it was there, and I really wanted to exercise that desire and ability.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So I got to know several coroners in my hometown in Ohio, even in Kentucky, became friends with them, and I started to learn about the coroner role. The first thing I learned is how unlike it is CSI and the shows Quincy and the shows we see on TV where you don’t see very much of the part that I was talking about, when I realized that, “Hey, I qualify to be a coroner,” and I found out the way that you do it is you run for the office, and that’s exactly what I did. I won on my first time out and I’ve won the succeeding two times, and I’m hoping to win this time.
David Lyons:
We are, too. Olivia, when this big life change, what was your impression when the idea came up and moving? How’d you feel about going in the direction
Olivia Hughes:
As always in any endeavor that Michael wanted to pursue, I was 100% onboard with him because I felt it like it was a passion that he wanted to do and working alongside with him with patients in the ER or whatever realm we worked with patients. I felt that same sense of I could reach out to these people just by giving them a hug, a smile, telling them it’s going to get better and they’re going to pull through surgery, and when he asked about us discussing the coroner roll, it was, “100%. Let’s go.”
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I have to say, though, that we’re not trying to, how can I say, take advantage of the situation or whatever for being a Christian, but we include prayer in everything we do. We did pray pretty hot and heavy about it because we both asked ourselves, “Is this really something we want to do?” I felt, “Yes.” Just based on those situations that I described to you before, if it just makes a difference in a handful of people’s lives, that’s a handful of people. We followed God’s will there and we like to think we’re still doing that.
David Lyons:
Truly it sounds every bit like a calling to me when it speaks to you as a vocation and a benediction that way. It truly is. Well, Cassie, what are the things about the coroner work that drew you to it?
Cassie Robinson:
Well, actually, a lot of what Michael just talked about rings true to me because I experienced it firsthand. I lost my husband in a car accident 11 years ago. It was out of state and I just got a phone call from a coroner in another state. It was this cold, just simple conversation. I think Michael may have just taken office, but someone from my husband’s work came to my house, but then they left and that was just like, “Okay. Well, here you go,” and you’re lost in this weird space where you don’t know what direction, you don’t know what to do. I’ve never thought about a funeral home ever.
Cassie Robinson:
So that plays a huge role in how I deal with or work with families now because I think it’s a really important time, which funeral directors do a wonderful job once you establish a funeral home, but there’s this really weird interim where you’re not even thinking about that. You’re just lost. So I always tell them, “I’m yours until you don’t need me. So any questions you have, whether it’s who’s going to feed my dog or who’s going to meet ServPro to come clean my house, or I just feel like you need somebody to hold your hand through that process, until you get your feet underneath and let it sink in what just happened.”
Wendy Lyons:
I will have to say I recall when my best friend passed, Olivia called me and said, “Cassie drove by and saw cats outside and she’s wondering if all of her cats are in.” I just thought that was so sweet that you drove by and instantly thought, “Who’s taking care of these cats?”
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah. I wanted to make sure everything was still secure in the house because after something terrible like that happens, a property will just sit, and I just want to make sure, and I saw this little cat just pulling at the door and trying to get in and I was so worried.
Wendy Lyons:
That was just so sweet of you all for you to reach out to Olivia and Olivia to reach out to me. Most people don’t think of that, and for you to drive by and think about it, I think it says so much for not just our little hometown and that hometown feel, but for you all as an agency to think so much about the people you serve as something as small as a cat, let alone the people.
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah, and I think that’s why we make such a good team because Michael and Olivia were called to do that. They innately just had that in them to do that. Then I think mine comes from experiencing it firsthand in a situation where it didn’t really go the way I would’ve liked it to go and then I had an opportunity to make it different for other people, that combined with all of our team working hard together. I feel like we cover every aspect of the grieving process, the initial shock of the grieving process to make it as less scary as possible, as least scary as possible.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I like to believe that living in Jessamine County and serving the community here, the size of a community with the diversity that we do have and just the people that are here, there’s love here, and it’s the right size place for me to be to be doing this. I wouldn’t want to be doing it in a city like Lexington. Don’t disparage Lexington at all. I love the city, but I believe that it would be so much more difficult to have that personal touch there than here, and only because there’s so much happening there. They have so many cases ongoing constantly to be able to stay up with everybody and every situation that you have an active case on will be extremely difficult. So this just seems to be a great match, not only for Olivia and I, but for our entire team.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, and I think also it shows in your work. It truly shows in the way you reach out to the community, and it goes saying that’s likely why you’ve been elected for as many terms as you have. The community realizes what a good team that we have here. I don’t know if there’s other people running or not, I don’t know, but I certainly think for this upcoming election, people need to certainly reflect on the great things that your team has brought to our community when they’re looking into, “Who am I going to elect?” I don’t know. Maybe people don’t even think that, but I know that my experience was really just topnotch with you all and I had never talked to a coroner, and just the fact that you all spent as much time reaching out to me and calling me and, Cassie, bless your heart, your phone died once and we had to resume the call and your dog wanted to go out and your kid was calling and mine, too.
Wendy Lyons:
So I mean, and nothing against other departments, but for that one-on-one, for you all to reach out to people, that just really says a lot. I think that’s why our little town of Nicholasville, Kentucky loves having Michael Hughes and his team as our coroner.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Wow. I can’t thank you enough for saying that. That recognition is we don’t feel like it’s well-deserved because we don’t feel like heroes or that we’re doing anything extra. Actually, my personal feeling is if I didn’t do the things that I do, that I would be walking away from the job unfinished. I feel that the people that are working with me feel the same way. I hope that I could say, well, I can say, I hope that that they believe that we’ve made a difference in their lives as far as how to do this. Sorry to get tongue tied there, but-
David Lyons:
Let’s go back into the mechanics of this a little bit. When you get elected, and we talked in the beginning about the training everybody’s had, the listeners might remember when we interviewed Dr. Greg Davis on forensic pathology. Greg was really clear to talk about the idea that one of the reasons he came back to this Kentucky itself, in this area, to practice his trade was because the respect he had for the coroner system and because of the training and the quality of the people that are here. He preferred the relationships that he had when he was a medical examiner were much better than other places he worked, and the training obviously played a big deal on that.
David Lyons:
What’s an overview of the training that a coroner in Kentucky completes at Department of Criminal Justice Training. What does that look like? Just an overview of some of the topics and things like that or how much time is spent at it?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, they always have a variety of training topics. Every year, there is a repeat of most of them so that new coroners and new deputies can get the same training, but they try to add something new every year. The mandatory requirement for annual coroner training is 18 hours, and that usually consists of at least one, two-day seminar per year. They also have a coroners conference annually that completes that same role, satisfies the same number of hours.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Our initial training is simply a three-hour course, which lasts for five days to teach us the basic, and I do mean basic ins and outs of the way an office works, the way a coroner works, the way a deputy works, the KRSs or Kentucky Revised Statutes that apply to coroners’ responsibilities and rights, the basics of forensic science. It is basic. I feel it’s woefully inadequate, simply not anybody’s fault. The Kentucky Coroners Association does a great job in providing this force, but it’s a minimum stepping stone to get into the field.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Then it’s how much you push yourself to get the additional training that you need or how much the coroner will push the deputies to get additional training. It never seems to be quite enough to me to take the minimum. I’ve never been satisfied since I’ve been the coroner of taking merely one course a year to satisfy the hours requirements. As a matter of fact, one of our lead instructors was referring to me at one time as a perpetual student because he would see me show up for every course they had. I’ve accumulated over 650 hours of continuing education since I’ve been in the office. So we like to think that the subjects that are covered are all appropriate in one way or another.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I’d like to mention, as a matter of fact, that a constitutionally elected coroner is also a constitutionally elected peace officer. That means we have all the rights and privileges of any law enforcement officer in our state. As a result of that, we are able to do what’s necessary, and that’s why the rules were set up as they are so that we could obtain whatever information we might need in the process of investigating a death.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
That means being able to demand medical records from hospitals, doctors’ offices, pharmacies, clinics, whoever it might be so that we can get into that without having to get search warrants and that sort of thing just for that basic information. Again, most of that was set up so that the system could help us find out what we need to do. The system Greg was so pleased with is not a system where the medical examiner employs an individual to be a coroner. It’s where the coroners literally, hate to say run the show, but we are our own boss, other than the people who elect us, of course, but whenever we feel that we need an autopsy, we are the ones who send the individual, the decedent, to the medical examiner’s office and tell them that we want them to do an autopsy, and they in turn do that.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So their purpose was fulfilled through the Kentucky Revised Statutes as being available to assist the coroner in determining manner and cause of death. We have worked so perfectly in harmony with the medical examiners in obtaining this. They’re more than happy to work with us, to train us, to add to what we already know, which is scant compared to what they know as fully trained forensic pathologists, but working together, we get the job done. We can understand the language that we each use. We follow the same protocols so that there’s no wondering what we were doing and what they wanted. As they say, we’re their eyes and ears in the field.
David Lyons:
Yeah, and I’m glad you pointed out the peace officer thing. A lot of people aren’t aware of that. Wendy had alluded to the investigative roles on this, and I’ve probably pointed out in some other shows that in Kentucky, at a death scene, the coroner is the lead law enforcement entity at that scene. They control it. They have everybody controlled. Externally, when I worked in Lexington, it didn’t look like that because you have a scene, it’s regarded as suspicious, a crime lab pulls up, people bail out of vehicles like circus clowns, the cops do and they’re all over the scene. The reality of it, though, is that there’s a relationship with that county coroner where you’re invited in, either explicitly in that event or there’s an agreement, but I always reminded people that that’s not the police department scene. It’s there’s a coordinated effort on that.
David Lyons:
Yes, like Cassie said, it’s that most of the investigations completed by the coroner’s office. The only time law enforcement’s brought in is when it’s going to be overwhelming or get to the idea that we may be going to grand juries and trials and things like that.
Cassie Robinson:
I feel like, too, in Nicholasville we’ve got a really good relationship with NPD and the Sheriff’s office. We work together. They ask us questions. We ask them questions. We have an open dialogue and open line of communication, which makes it a pleasant scene to work on because we all can just work as a really big team.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
We’re equally as closely involved with Wilmore Police Department.
Cassie Robinson:
That’s right.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
If I could add to that a little bit more specifically, I find that I don’t like to elaborate too much on that because it’s like watching the old TV show where the FBI comes in and tells the cops, “Back off,” and the cops hate the FBI and the FBI seems to hate the cops, at least in the movies. I’ve always been a person that believes that I could get more accomplished with sugar than I can vinegar.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So one of the things I’ve tried to do is develop a stronger rapport than the coroner’s offices has ever had in the past with our law enforcement officials. With EMS as well, one of the best things we can do for them is to show up on time, in a timely manner, so they don’t have to be sitting around waiting, but with the law enforcement, I’ve had several police chiefs say, “Hey, this is your scene. I’m backing off,” and I just didn’t like the sounds of that.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I said, “Well, no. I don’t agree with that completely. This is our scene. This is a team effort. The scene is yours. The decedent is mine.” That’s the best way I felt about it so that I could, in a cheerful way, if I can use that term, express what the rules are in the KRS such as until the coroner is present, no one shall move the body. No one should take anything from the body, change positions, et cetera, et cetera. We’ve had a few growing experiences with that in trying to remind certain police departments, “If you don’t have to, don’t touch the weapon,” if we think it’s a suicide, for example, because that taints our view of the scene, “Which hand was the weapon in? Where was the weapon positioned? How far from the body or was it on the body?” or whatever.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So we’ve worked with the police departments and the Sheriff’s office to develop that rapport. Sometimes people who have done things another way for so many years are resistant to change. You know that. I like to think that we’ve made significant improvements along that line. It’s not perfect yet, but I think sometimes if the police academies would get more involved in the role of a coroner on scene and what their responsibilities are, that would help us tremendously.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I don’t know whether that is or not, but I’ve asked numerous officers how much time they received training on coroners, and they look at each other and say, “I don’t remember any,” and that’s that bothers me a little bit. So I’m always hopeful that we’ll see a change in that.
David Lyons:
Yeah. I think it’s a pass down. I know when I came through and I had 28 years on it, it’s a pass down knowledge and through experience, but I don’t ever remember in the academy getting anything like that, and it is about relationships because I never saw a antagonistic relationship in my career at all. It was always probably one of the neatest things to watch is just the coordinated effort of nobody had a head in the game, and it was actually, in my experience, it was good, but I understand what you’re talking about on those miscommunications or non-understandings because typically, for police, the antagonism has never been with the coroner, it’s always been the fire department, those that what they call the evidence destruction unit and stuff like that. Most of that is even based on mythology, the things that are passed down on our record.
David Lyons:
It was funny because when you’re talking, Cassie got really animated when you were talking about moving guns and stuff like that, and I’m thinking back at myself just some of the strange things I’ve seen at scenes, and we don’t have to dig in because it could embarrass people on things that were relocated when they didn’t need to be, and I’ll leave it at that.
David Lyons:
Yeah. Well, anything from, and again, when I investigated cases, I was like you and I was Cassie. You don’t want anything messed with. Medical treatment’s a whole different ball of wax you can deal. I can argue that, but I just remember having conversations with people about, “Really have to put a sheet over him. They’re in their home. We’re okay. There’s nobody traipsing through here,” and whatever, but it was funny. I was cracking up watching Cassie, and the audience can’t hear, but she was extremely animated when you were talking, and I’m thinking, “You know what? We probably got some war stories. We probably got a few stories to tell.”
Cassie Robinson:
Absolutely.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
That’d be for another day, right?
David Lyons:
Exactly, yeah, exactly, but it does come down to relationships and you made a good point, too, and I’ve always been big on this that TV and movies really give the public a bad representation of what every bit of this looks like. Even the shows we grew up with, you talked about, none of them are accurate. That’s why we like doing this podcast and taking people, especially right now having coroners and a deputy coroner in a room, it is so different than what TV and movies.
David Lyons:
I think, unfortunately, when people have a loss, that unexpected loss, they revert back to what they think they’ve seen on TV, and there’s part of the confusion again, but it’s nothing like. None of this whole world that all of us have worked in or working in is nothing like what we see on TV.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, I did want to ask, and maybe some people wonder like I wonder because if you not ever have had dealt with a coroner, you know what the role is because you hear, TV tells you what it is, but how does it happen from the beginning? Anybody who listens to this podcast, I always want to know, from the very beginning, what happened? Are you all notified of a death or how do you all know where to go, and then what do you do next, and what do you do next?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, if I can interject on this and, Cassie, you can add to it, please, our dispatch system is in touch with all first responders, and I like to consider us last responders, but they still consider us the first responder. They’re the center where all 911 phone calls come into. Based on the information that they get from whoever calls it in, which was mainly the address of the incident that’s occurred, they will dispatch law enforcement, but they’ll also notify in the case of a potential death or medical problem, EMS to be available on standby until the officers get a chance to check it out, and then they will radio back to dispatch by a two-way radio what they have.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Finally, to get us involved, the EMS, upon determining that the individual has succumbed or died in common lay terms by EKG tracings, they’ll ask for 1100, which is our code number, for the coroner’s office, and then dispatch will contact us. We have a new system, it’s not brand new, but we’re just getting it back up and running the way it should be, but they will actually give us a heads up. For example, when that officer calls that in to dispatch that he has a potential code 500, which is a heart attack, cardiac arrest, they will notify us of the address, the circumstances, if they think it’s a suspected code 500 or overdose or whatever or 46, which is an auto accident with injuries, they’ll notify us.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
So that heads up will get us prepared mentally for what we’re going to encounter. It’ll also often tell me if I need to be there, if I want to be there. If they say, “We have a multiple injury,” or potential multiple fatality accident or 1046, then I know I want to go. It just works like that. Then we respond. We then get in our vehicle, our van, emergency van, radio dispatch that were en route to that address. Then of course, upon arriving at the scene, we’re usually met by EMS personnel and/or law enforcement who gives us a synopsis of what the scene is all about. Then we proceed to go in, do our jobs.
Wendy Lyons:
Hey, you know there’s more to this story. So go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, where you’ll find show notes, transcripts, information about the presenters, and much, much more. We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captions for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for The Murder Police podcast and you will find us.
David Lyons:
If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. Make sure to subscribe to The Murder Police podcast and set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends.
David Lyons:
Lock it down, Judy.
Part 2 of 2
Cassie Robinson:
I found out he had four or five siblings, and one was in Pennsylvania and one was in Florida. And once we started talking to them, they were beside themselves when they found out about his death. But they also didn’t know that he had a daughter who had been placed in foster care, so they came to town immediately. They got in their cars and drove. And we talked on and off the whole trip, and they met the daughter in her foster home. And just recently, this was about this time last year, and they just in the past month got custody of her and she moved with them back to their home. And that was a happy ending story that seemed like it would never come full circle.
Wendy Lyons:
The Role Of Coroner, with Jessamine County, Kentucky, coroner, Michael Hughes. Part two of two. Warning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
They say we have a multiple injury or a potential multiple-fatality accident, or 10-46, then I know I want to go. It just works like that. Then we respond. We get in our vehicle, our emergency van, radio dispatch that we’re en route to that address. Then, of course, upon arriving at the scene, we’re usually met by EMS personnel and/or law enforcement who gives us a synopsis of what the scene is all about. Then we proceed to go in, and do our jobs. First thing that we do is look the scene over, determine that the decedent truly is dead. Not that we doubt EMS, but that’s just what we have to do. Then we’ll begin by taking a lot of photos. As many as… Well, just many photos, depending on the type of scene, because you can’t have too many if you ever have a court case. That’s a big part of it.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
And then we have the interviewing of family members and/or witness as to what happened. Again, the police will continue to fill us in on any paraphernalia, for example, that they might find on the overdosing, that sort of thing. If there’s a weapon, we like to examine the weapon if we have the opportunity, so that we can compare muzzle imprints on the skin if it’s a contact wound and that sort of thing, to be able to log the serial number, type of weapon, caliber of the weapon and that information. And then, once we’re finished with all of that, we, what we say, bag. It’s not a great term, but we bag the patient, the decedent, in a body bag, and remove them, a stretcher, to our van. In some cases of natural death, the funeral homes will actually come to the home, and secure the body and remove the body. Then we’re ready to spend the time that we need to with the family.
Cassie Robinson:
Suspected overdoses, when we get suspected overdoses, and not even suspected overdoses, even suicides, a car accident that isn’t going to go to autopsy, maybe a passenger, when we get to the office we draw tox ourselves. And then we send it off to our lab, that is a lab that the entire state uses.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Which consists of what?
Cassie Robinson:
Blood, urine, and vitreous fluid.
David Lyons:
I was going to ask the same thing, because you said the word tox. And so we have to talk about what tox is, because some of us know but not everybody. What is-
Cassie Robinson:
Toxicology.
David Lyons:
There we go. Exactly.
Cassie Robinson:
Fluids for toxicology to run tests to see what’s going on in their system, illicit, alcohol. Answers a lot of questions that we have in a lot of cases, really. I feel like you can never draw enough tox. I mean, sometimes you can find stuff in tox that you just would never imagine. It’s not a place to assume that you know what’s going on. The tox always tells.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
And sometimes, but I know what she’s referring to, we could have a 75-year-old person and you think, “Well, they just… natural death.” So, it could be overdose. Age has no preference in that. And of course, the dominance of fentanyl in the illicit drug market has just decimated so many families. Even here in Jessamine County, which we used to like to think we don’t have a drug problem, but we all know that every county, every community has a drug problem. But the toxicology labs that we send these samples to are specialists. In the way that they use their machines, they’re able to determine whether it’s an isomer of a drug or the main drug, or whatever kind of drug it is. They get down to the specifics. There are so many different things with fentanyl, butyryl fentanyl, oxybutyryl fentanyl. There are so many derivatives of drug that they can tell us exactly what they’d taken.
Wendy Lyons:
So I guess when you get there, if it is an overdose or a suspected, when you arrive you may not always know, like Michael said. So, I’m assuming if there’s a needle there, you assume it’s something related to drugs, but I’m just imagining how confusing that may be. Like working a puzzle, you get there and you just really don’t know. Unless it’s blatantly obvious, like a suicide or a car accident. So I guess I’m wondering, where do you all start at square one? I can imagine I’d stand there and scratch my head and think, “Huh. Wonder what happened.” Because it may be drugs, it may be a heart attack. You’re right.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, that’s why we called an investigation, because it truly is. One of the things we try to get people out of… And it’s hard to do, so we know how to play it in our own minds. But often when we receive that call from dispatch, we’ll be told that we have a suicide or we have a drowning, or we have such-and-such. And I always want to add the last line, which I’ve never, ever done, but I want to say, “You mean you think we have a drowning because someone was found dead in the water? Okay, that doesn’t mean that’s a drowning,” and things like that. It’s like determining a suicide versus a homicide, or it’s a suicide an accident or is it intentional? If it’s an accident, it’s not suicide. It’s an accident. So that’s the kind of little game-playing you have to do with your own mind, and bounce it off a deputy or another corner, or even law enforcement, to sit there and talk about. And that’s one of the things I liked best about it, is when we have something, “Let’s all get together and talk about it. Here, let’s sit down for a minute before you guys sit over there and say, ‘This is clearly a suicide.'” Because I always like to play the devil’s advocate to a certain extent and say, “What if it’s not a suicide?”
Cassie Robinson:
And Michael’s really good at that, too. He’ll test your brain. Whatever theory you come up with, Michael will fire back with, “Well, how can you tell me it’s not this?” I’m like, “No, it’s a good question.” But-
Wendy Lyons:
So do you all interview the families as well to get information?
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah.
Wendy Lyons:
So it’s you all and it’s law enforcement?
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah. And it truly is like a puzzle, because on certain cases that aren’t obvious and it’s somebody that’s not 30 years old, just a middle-aged person, interviewing the family is huge. Medical records, we’ll talk to their doctors, see what’s going on. A lot of times their primary care physician will have a diagnosis that we had no idea about, family had no idea about, that answers all the questions. If we can’t come up with a definite answer, either the medical examiner will want them to come to autopsy or we’ll consult with the medical examiner that’ll clarify some things that they think, or we’ll test theories with the medical examiner and they’ll give us advice. They’re really approachable and easy to talk to about questions, if we have any.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
That’s one of the great things that we have about our coroner and medical examiner system, is that approachability going both ways. The medical examiners or physicians, never have I got the feeling that we’re looked down on because we’re not physicians, because they don’t look at us like that at all. I think they see us as professionals and they appreciate what we do, as you know from Greg Davis’s interview. I like to also believe and realize that the differences that we can make sometimes are brought out by their questioning us. And a lot of times, I’ll ask my deputies. They generally will call me. If I don’t go on the call, they’ll call me and tell me what they have and what’s happened, as Cassie did a couple days ago, or last night-
Cassie Robinson:
Last night.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Last night it was, what we had, and I think we needed an autopsy. And after she described the case to me, I said, “Why don’t you do one thing for me? Why don’t you call a medical examiner and talk to them about it?” Because I like them to be familiar, and them being the deputies, to be familiar and comfortable, with having a rapport to discuss the case with the medical examiner. And often, they will ask questions that maybe we didn’t think about on a case, or they’ll say, “Is this a possibility, or is that a possibility? Or what do you think about this or that?” And sometimes there’s no surprises. They, “No, just don’t think you need one as far as we can see. But if you want one, we’ll do it.” That’s the way they handle it.
Cassie Robinson:
That’s right. Yeah. Even if they’re like, “Well, I think you’re good. I think this is a solid answer, but if you would be more comfortable bringing the decedent, we’ll take a look at them just to confirm your thoughts.”
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I wanted to-
Wendy Lyons:
So you-
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Excuse me. I just wanted to throw in, Olivia is not a medically trained individual, but she has a lot of medical experience. Now, I should take that back, shouldn’t I? You’re a medicolegal death investigator, aren’t you? I’m sorry, I forgot about that. Yes. Yes, you are-
Olivia Hughes:
Yes, I got my training through St. Louis University. I took both the basic and the master’s course in medicolegal death investigating. But I did have a lot of medical training. I had the privilege of shadowing a internal medicine physician, who sees about 60 patients a day over a 12-year period. Learning the medical terminology, what it means-
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I think it was about 19 years, if I’m not mistaken. 12.
Olivia Hughes:
Which I gained so much knowledge, just shadowing a young internal medicine physician who specialized in cardiology. I was able to chart things for him, look at the chart and get the vitals, and get the charts ready for the next day of the patients that he was going to see. And I just gained a wealth of knowledge as far as the medical field. My degree, my bachelor’s degree and my master’s degree is both in accounting, finance, management, and marketing. So that’s where I came out of college, and then right out of college I had this privilege of working with a medical doctor, shadowing him.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I wanted to bring that up just because, even though she’s not an official deputy coroner, she’s been pretty helpful in even asking me, and occasionally the deputies… We all talk. We talk like a family in the office and about cases, okay? We have confidentiality agreements and arrangements. We don’t talk about those kind of things outside, but she often has great ideas for us, “Did you look at this? Did you think about this? What if this happened or what if that happened?” And she knows our routine so well. We’re almost joined at the hip, for her being with me so much of the time. She’s a vital part of what we do, and she’s not just a telephone answerer and paper shuffler at all. She makes schedules for the deputies and assists me. Well, maybe I assist her. I’m not sure. Of course, one of my roles as the coroner is to fill out death certificates and to sign them. And for every cremation that occurs in the county, I have to approve it and sign it. I mean, we work closely with the funeral homes, and they’re the ones that send me the provisional, or have me sign a provisional report of death, just stating that I’m okay with them cremating, that there’s nothing being hidden or whatever. So, therefore, I have a responsibility to know a little bit about every case, every human being that’s cremated in the county of Jessamine.
David Lyons:
I never knew any of that. So, that’s fascinating, that I never knew that the coroner signed off on those. And again, what’s the reason again? Is that to make sure we don’t destroy evidence that-
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I think the reason is severalfold, and one is to satisfy the legal requirement. Two is to satisfy anything that a family member may have to say about a dispute in whether that was really their relative or was it who it’s supposed to be. Thirdly, to make sure we have proper authorization from the family to cremate. And the only time we don’t need that is when we don’t have a family to refer them to or, in a case we’ve had recently, where we can’t get the majority of family members to authorize their cremation for whatever reason. There’s no cost to them to do that, but some people just don’t. Either because of poor family dynamics or whatever, some people just say, “I don’t want to sign.” So if you have five members or five children, let’s say, three of the five have to sign. You have two, both have to sign. And that’s just the law. If that happens, we can’t cremate somebody. All we can do is bury them. Even an indigent individual who has no family that will claim them or will help with burial expenses. Now that burial expenses does not come to us and it’s not us that makes said decision, that comes from the county judge executive.
David Lyons:
I never knew any of that.
Wendy Lyons:
I didn’t either. And also, Cassie and us talking the other day, you mentioned attending autopsies. I didn’t know that you all attended those.
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s another way that we’ve really gotten to know the medical examiners and that they’re so approachable, because they’ll just… hands-on. I remember my very first autopsy. I don’t remember exactly who it was, but she said, “Come here. But just come check it out, get closer.” And you really do learn seeing it firsthand, especially when you’re invested in a case. You really curious what was the cause of death. And I feel like I’ve learned a lot from attending autopsies from my cases.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
She means when it’s one of our cases. Because you could go down there and they could be doing any other county’s autopsy, but it’s really important when it’s ours.
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah, you’re a little more invested in it. When we go to our basic training, our 40-hour course, there’s a whole day in the Louisville’s medical examiner’s office. I couldn’t count how many autopsies we watched in a day, just seeing from every range of cause and manner of death. I think that’s really good experience, seeing it from the inside out.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I wanted to mention, in Kentucky, we have one chief medical examiner and then we have staff medical examiners under him. Oh, well, it’s a him now. And we have… What is it, five autopsy centers? Is Madisonville still open? I can’t remember.
Cassie Robinson:
I don’t remember.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
It’s either four or five that are located throughout the state. Ours is typically Frankfurt, and when we have the adequate staffing, meaning autopsy techs and medical examiners, then Frankfurt’s open. When we don’t have enough people, they’ll close every other week and if we have something we have to transport to Louisville, but that’s the way that system works. They’ll tell us when it’s scheduled and if we want to attend, such as homicides, we typically attend those, and they’ll notify us when they’re going to do it. And often, a detective from the police department will go with us, or a sheriff’s deputy. And we just go down and observe the process, and learn firsthand exactly what they found and how they found it.
Wendy Lyons:
So you will all do that, the transportation as well, to that facility?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Yes.
Cassie Robinson:
That’s right. To the autopsy, and then typically the funeral home will pick up from the medical examiner’s office.
David Lyons:
And that’s important because there’s a chain of custody issue, and you are the ideal people for that, too. I understand you learn from it too, but it was my experience that the medical examiner needs the people that were at that scene there.
Cassie Robinson:
That’s such a good point, because there’s-
David Lyons:
They have to.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
It’s a great point.
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah, because they’re just getting bullet points of a story. So they’ll come across a bruise or a laceration, and I might have just a very obvious answer that would not be obvious to them if they didn’t see the scene. So they really do like when we’re there to answer questions that they wouldn’t expect to come up, just about things.
David Lyons:
Yeah. Anything. Lifestyle, victim, victimology-
Cassie Robinson:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Risk factors, things like that. Things going on in the family, things that family have said, because they’re a blank slate with that decedent or two. I mean, they can do the technical aspects, but I was listening to that and I thought, “Yeah, you’re learning and they’re learning, too.” They have to have that input from people who were on the ground, because one or two observations from you could skew them in a completely different direction and examine that body in a different way.
Cassie Robinson:
And Michael mentioned taking photos earlier, and I had a case earlier this year where I actually went through my scene photos with the medical examiner and there were parts of the photos that would explain certain injuries to the decedent that, without those pictures… You’re trying to describe a scene, and that can be difficult without seeing it in a photo.
David Lyons:
It’s like anything else. Between the photos and the tox and everything, it’s all about getting everything you can get when you can get it, at the right time. The earlier the better, especially with toxicology and things like that. Me and Michael were talking on the way into the room to interview, is, your best shot at any of this is the first time around. And Greg Davis said that, that the first autopsy really is the only autopsy.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Yeah. There’s obviously no second chances on a lot of this, just the same as the position that the person is found in. Even EMS doesn’t generally move the individual if they’re lying prone or they’re facedown. And EMS’s rules, I guess their guidelines, the way they function, is that they have to ascertain death or a lack of life about placing the electrodes on and get a flat line. And they can do that on the back as well as on the front. So, we’ve helpfully tried when we could to direct them in that direction, to not try to roll the person over. Sometimes police departments get overzealous and they want to hurry up and roll the person over to try to find the weapon if they think that it’s a suicide. And I try to say, “Well, it’s not going to go anywhere. It’ll still be there when I’m ready to roll them, if you don’t mind waiting.” Like I said, some people have pretty good experience with coroner’s work and some don’t.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, I did want to ask both of you, Cassie and Michael, do you all have cases that just really stand out, that are hard… I’m not saying all of them are hard to forget, but I’m sure some stand out more so than others.
Cassie Robinson:
I have a bunch. I get attached to the families I work with, and I think about them all the time. And it ranges from… I had a case, it was a man in his upper-90s that passed, drinking his coffee and eating a sausage biscuit. And we see a lot of tragic stuff, but something about that case. All of his family was there. He lived a full, happy life. And I was more emotional, I feel like, on that case than some of my more tragic ones. That one sticks out a lot. We all hope to live a full, long life and pass peacefully, in that way. But most recently, I had a case in Wilmore where a man passed, his daughter was in foster care and we couldn’t locate next of kin. Michael and I tried for three or so days to find next of kin, and neighbors didn’t really know. He had told people that he didn’t have any family. And I think the last day, just a shot in the dark, I had a lead in Florida and sent a sheriff in Florida to a home to see if this was possibly his mother, and it ended up being his mother.
Cassie Robinson:
I found out he had four or five siblings, and one was in Pennsylvania and one was in Florida. And once we started talking to them, they were beside themselves when they found out about his death. But they also didn’t know that he had a daughter who had been placed in foster care, so they came to town immediately. They got in their cars and drove. And we talked on and off the whole trip, and they met the daughter in her foster home. And just recently, this was about this time last year, and they just in the past month got custody of her and she moved with them back home, to their home. And that was a happy ending story that seemed like it would never come full circle. I was worried about this girl in foster care with no family, when we knew there was family out there. So, that was a good ending. And I think about that family a lot. I get updates all the time and I love to hear how it’s all worked out for the better. But I could go on. I can talk for hours about different cases and families that we’ve dealt with and still talk to.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I was pretty impressed with Cassie’s work and her devotion to what she does. This girl had written something, a nice letter to Cassie that she shared with us, that Cassie apparently had talked to her most of the way, or maybe even all the way, on her trip from… Was it Pennsylvania? To Kentucky. And she was frightened and she was upset, very emotional, and Cassie talked her down and talked her in. And spent that kind of extra time with her on her own to make the girl comfortable with the whole situation. I thought that was pretty good. Yes, that’s Cassie. She just goes above and beyond whatever’s required in the office.
Cassie Robinson:
I like to make to-do list on that. But not only are you dealing with overwhelming grief of the loss that just happened, and that causes you to be frantic, then the other part of your brain is thinking, “Well, then what do I do next? What do I do about this? And what do I do about this?” And so with all my families, I like to just start, like, “We’re just going to start here. We’re going to accomplish this, and then we’ll move on to the next thing.” And that’s actually what she and I talked about majority of her drive there, “Well, we’re going to start with this, and then we’ll call the landlord, and then we’ll call the foster parents.” And so that works us through the chaos of it all.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
But because of her persistence, she was able to reunite a family. She actually brought this girl back into the folds of the family. It was, for all intent and purposes, totally split. I don’t think there was really any connection.
Cassie Robinson:
Yeah, they didn’t know that she existed.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Did they end up adopting the girl?
Cassie Robinson:
They’re in the process right now, of adoption.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
I mean, that’s amazing. For something that wasn’t a part of her job, to do that.
Wendy Lyons:
What about you, Michael? Do you have any that really stands out? Because you’ve done this for many years, so I know you’ve seen many things. Are there any that just stand out and grab you?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Yes, there are. Grab me in different ways, I guess, is the situation, because as Cassie’s talking, even though I knew the situation somewhat, my mind was reeling in, “Gee, the happy moments, the terribly sad moments, the nothing-but-despair moments, the extreme loss moments.” Of course, everybody, whether they lose one family member or five or six, it’s a tragedy. It’s usually the most difficult day of that person’s life up to that time. And I think just by realizing that we get to be a part of that. Not that we have to be a part, we don’t have to do this, but we get to do it, to try to be a comfort and somewhat of a blessing for these people. And that’s why we feel like God, Jesus, is in this capacity. That’s the devotion that we have. One that sticks out is where five family members, five members from the same family, and one that wasn’t a member of that family perished in a horrific, fiery crash on 27. And that was a pretty difficult one to get through, for various reasons that I really don’t want to go into in a deep way.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
But based on the conditions and the severity of the injuries and that sort of thing, it just really will always live with me to some extent. One that caused me to tear up a little bit was just simply an older gentleman who was sitting in his rocker, still with a half-eaten half gallon of ice cream and a spoon in his hand, with the ice cream in his lap. And I thought, “Wow, what a way to go. Enjoying your favorite ice cream.” But yet there was a poignant sorrow to it, if you know what I mean? It’s like, “Gee, didn’t get to enjoy the whole thing.” I’m not really sure that it was humorous at the time. It wasn’t, but it’s just the different ways that you see these things. The shock factors that I’ve had from people who have jumped, to people who have drowned, people who’ve fallen. People who’ve taken their own lives and the heartbroken, grief-filled parents who don’t understand and can’t understand, that they thought that he had kicked the habit and was finally graduated from his rehab, and headed for Florida for a brand new teaching job.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
And still had his U-Haul loaded up or connected to his car, and all the furniture still in it when they found him, which was supposed to be his first day on the brand new job. Just the grief that the family has to go through. That’s why we try to play an active role. I’m involved with the health department in our ASAP Program, which is Agency Against Substance Abuse Policy. We try all the educational maneuvers we can think of, and they’re never quite good enough, or they don’t go quite far enough. The suicides that we see that are totally meaningless or totally unnecessary. No suicide is necessary, I don’t believe, but some of them just seem to be for the most… A girlfriend breaks up with a boy and he shoots himself, or we’ve had one girl shoot herself for the very same reason. I don’t know. Cassie, how many suicides have we had this year already? Eight or 10, I’m sure.
Cassie Robinson:
A lot. It’s been a record year on many levels.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
And it’s still just April. And not all, but a fair percentage, are young people, and that’s heartbreaking. Every single one of those is heartbreaking. Yeah, they’re memorable. And they say that these things never leave you, and I’ve always felt immune from that for the most part, but I’ve had a couple that were pretty rough on me, particularly the cases that I worked. We all share in that grief. Sometime we all sit around and we’ll talk about the case, which is a good therapy for us within our department, to discuss some of the cases that we take care of. And it’s interesting to me when people say, “What do have to do to get to be a coroner?” And I say, “Well, if you have enough time, I’d like to explain that to you sometime, because it’s not so much what you have to do to get there. It’s what you have to be able to do to stay there.” It’s the way I feel about it. Some people say, “I can’t do that. I couldn’t do this or that.” Maybe they can. I always felt like anybody could do anything they wanted to do, but-
Olivia Hughes:
If their heart’s in the right place.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Yeah, that’s true.
Cassie Robinson:
And I think me personally, I see it from a mother hen perspective. I get really protective over my families. Once I get on-scene, I understand that the death part of it is tragic and it’s horrible. And it affects me too, but in that process, I don’t know if I’m distracted by or to not dwell on it, I just want to take care of my families. I shared something on Facebook the other day, and it ended with a quote that said, “‘I’m here.’ Those are some of the holiest words I’ve ever heard.” And that’s so true, because it’s such a lonely, scary, dark time. And a lot of people don’t have anybody that’s gone through it before or with them. And just to be able to say, and again, I don’t share often about my loss, but every once in a while, somebody just might need to hear that to know, “Oh, well, you are surviving, and it’s okay.” And that keeps you going with it, I believe.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
But at the same time, I think that one of the strangest things that people can say is, “It’ll be okay.” People don’t know it’s going to be okay. People don’t know what is okay, going through suffering with something every day, because it never goes away. As some of our professional friends have told us, even Dr. Greg Davis said, you say that, “No, it’ll get better. It’ll pass away,” or, “It just takes time,” but you never get over it. It may get better, but you never get over it. And I’m speaking primarily for the families. I think those things will last less with us as coroners, but for the families, we can see just how difficult it is. And I know Olivia, and Cassie too, have talked to numerous people about the sufferings and what goes on in their lives after they’ve lost their loved ones. We still get calls occasionally from people have passed, their family members have passed three years ago, four years ago. Maybe even beyond that. She’ll still get a call, and they just want to say, “Hi, just thinking about you, and wanted to thank you again,” or whatever the case might be. Let you know that it doesn’t go away.
Cassie Robinson:
And I think it’s healthy to approach it that way, too. Obviously, not on a scene, but in the weeks and months after a death and I’m working with the family, I feel comfortable enough to be like, “This really is going to suck. This is going to hurt and you’re going to feel it, and let’s just feel it and let’s be sad for now.” Because I think Michael’s right. When people say, “It’s going to be okay, this’ll pass. They’re in a better place,” I think dealing with the reality of it and just being really honest is oddly comforting to some. Like, “Oh, this is normal, that I feel hopeless and that this hurts like it does.” And like, “Yeah, absolutely, and we’re going to feel it. And I’m here if you need me. Call me, I’m here.” And it doesn’t get better, but like Michael said, you just start to process it and learn to live with it. I’d hate for somebody to do that alone, so we’re there.
Olivia Hughes:
I think when Michael asked me to be a volunteer in the coroner’s office, I quickly stepped up to the role because I had lost my dad to cancer very quickly, very unexpectedly. And I still feel that pain today, and it doesn’t go away. And I still pick up the phone almost every morning to place that call to my dad to ask a question, and I realize he’s not there. So I guess my role and the biggest role in the corner’s office, as I see it, is being with those families, talking to those families, writing them a sympathy note. Just writing them a note when their child’s birthday is or sending that mother a Mother’s Day card that lost that infant. It helps me to heal in what I went through with my own father passing. That’s the biggest blessing I get out of it, and I thank God every day that I am where I am.
David Lyons:
Truly, it’s a calling there, too. And to be able to take that tragedy and that loss and, again, turn it into something that’s going to help other people is phenomenal.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, one thing I just want to add, last thing I have to say, unless you have other questions, somebody asked me what advice would I give to people that cross my path in everyday life. And I thought about that for a while, and I thought, “Of all the experiences I’ve had, why people die, why they have to die.” Well, we all know that. It’s usually human error. My thoughts on that are, be careful, and don’t take unnecessary risks. Don’t be distracted. Run from drugs. Make sure your family knows how much you love them.
David Lyons:
That sums up a whole lot of loss right there that would be prevented. And it sounds simple, but it’s extremely true. Extremely true.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, I do have to ask, I know that the election’s coming up, I’ve been seeing your signs everywhere and on vehicles. And why don’t you tell us when that’s coming and what you hope to expect out of that?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I hope to expect victory. On the serious side, that will be May 17th, which is the primary for our county. I think statewide as well. Because it’s nonpartisan for our race, as well as the sheriff, we will not have a general election. So, the big deal for our election process is this primary. So if you don’t vote in this primary, you won’t get to vote in the general. As far as these two races go, the sheriff and the coroner. Very expectant and hopeful for the support of all those people who have steadfastly voted for me for the past three terms. And I hope that I’ve served the community well, and that there are no real issues. There’s always small issues. Always small things that might turn into a disagreement or whatever, but I hope by and large we’ve been able to satisfy people with the way that we handled the compassion and the dignity part of our role in dealing with the loss of loved ones and their families.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
We don’t rush our investigations or our relationships with the families. We try to be there as much as necessary. We actually tell each family that they can reach not only the deputy that may have taken care of them, but myself or Olivia almost 24 hours a day. We like to turn our primary phones off at about 11 o’clock at night, but seven days a week we’re available. If you have questions or comments, or you just want us to come and visit you, we’re there. We’re there for you, and that’s why we’re doing the job we’re doing. Please elect us, and keep us in there for four more years.
Wendy Lyons:
Michael, I like how you termed it, “Elect us.” And when I think of you all, I think of you all as a team, as a group, all of your people. Because often, as I tell my staff, we actually just had a staff meeting last night, I’m only as strong as my weakest staff member that I have. And I said to them, “I can’t do this without you all.” And I feel quite confident you feel the same about Olivia and Cassie and your other deputies. I mean, everybody knows that you’re great, and that’s why we have for as many terms as we’ve had you. And we hope to get you more, but I think you would probably agree, without that team, without your us, Michael Hughes, coroner, you’re only as strong as you could be without them, right?
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Absolutely. I couldn’t have said it better. And obviously, I didn’t, but you’re absolutely right. I feel a sense of pride with the deputies for the job that they do, for the dedication they have. I won’t personally tolerate any insults or bad comments or reviews about them, because I know the kind of people that they are. And I know that there are always going to be people who are never satisfied or looking for something to complain about. We haven’t had much of at. They’re hardly even recognizable. And we’re so thankful that people recognize how dedicated my deputies are. You’re right, they make me who I am now.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah, that’s right. And I think they’ve evolved to who they are, from listening to what Cassie’s telling us and Olivia is telling us, because of you. Cassie has evolved into this role which she didn’t do for a living, as you’ve done, and she does it with grace and dignity. And I mean, she’s just exceptional, and I have to toot her horn. I don’t know the other lady that we’ve talked about or your other deputies, but from my personal experience, I just didn’t even know that a coroner’s office could take that kind of compassion and reach out to somebody, and just stay on the phone… And bless her heart. When we were talking on Friday, she was saying her son was calling her and I’m like, “Oh no, you’re a mom. You have to do that first.” As a mom, I know. And she’s like, “I can call you back.” And I’m like, “No, because I’ll keep you on the phone until 4:00 AM. It’s already 1:00 AM.” And she said, “But that’s okay.” And she never even said, “Yeah, I’m tired. That’s a great idea, let’s talk a different time.” And I would like to ask Cassie and Olivia, why don’t you tell our listeners, I know from personal experience, but why don’t you tell our listeners why you all think that our community should keep Michael in office?
Olivia Hughes:
Well, from my perspective as a wife and part of his team as a volunteer, obviously I think Michael is the best candidate because he feels like that this job is really not a job. It’s his privilege to get to serve the citizens of Jessamine County. He shows so much compassion to these families and gives so much dignity to the decedents, that he is the best choice. Because he has had going on 12 years of coroner’s experience. He has 45 years in medical experience and training. He has investigated with his deputies over 1100 cases since 2011. He has many numerous continuing educations through the Department of Criminal Justice Training, as well as his basic and master’s graduation from the St. Louis University. And I just really think he is the most experienced candidate that I would want someone to deal with if I had a loss in my family.
Wendy Lyons:
Absolutely. Cassie, what do you have to say it?
Cassie Robinson:
I have a lot to say about it. I agree. Michael is, other than my own father, one of the most compassionate men that I’ve ever met, which is refreshing to see. A man that’ll walk in and ask to give a family a hug, or shed a tear with a family with no hesitation whatsoever. The other part that I love about Michael is, he’s brilliant when it comes to the workings of a case. The causes, the medical background, and the patience that he has to share that brilliance with his deputies. Or even families, just explaining. We’re all really good at the compassion part and the big heart part, because that’s a huge priority for us. But the background of it too, as a lot of these families really want to know what happened, and Michael’s really thorough.
Cassie Robinson:
He doesn’t leave any stone unturned when it comes to determining cause and manner of a death. And even if it’s something just as simple as a natural… something almost expected, he still will take the time to explain it and investigate it, just so the family feels at peace. That all questions can be answered, because he’s taken the time to figure it out. And he shares that with us, that patience and that knowledge, and how to get from point A to point B to get everybody answers. So I guess you can say he’s just the whole package. He does it all, and it’s been a pleasure to learn and to be a part of this office. It’s almost like a big family. Stephanie and Paul, and Michael, Olivia, and I would be… I don’t know what I’d do without them. They’re all my phone calls every day. Well, other than you, Wendy.
Wendy Lyons:
Thank you.
Cassie Robinson:
And a couple other people, my son and my husband. But no, I call Michael and Olivia. They’re almost one of my very first phone calls every morning.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, I want to correct you. We’re not almost a family, we are.
Cassie Robinson:
We are a family. The amount of time that we spend together. I’m just going to add this too. When you said that about being tired, I’m pretty sure I’ve not been to sleep yet since last night. So I’m getting good at this no sleep thing. I keep getting caught up in my words. Sorry, go ahead.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, and again, it goes to show your all’s level of dedication. You came in here, bless your heart, and we were supposed to record this a week ago, and Cassie was so tired but she said, “I’ll do it. I’ll do it.” And I said, “No, please. Please go to sleep, we’ll do it another day. It is really okay.” But I just hope that our citizens of our community that’s listening to this can hear a little snippet of the dedication of this team that we have, in the way they’re willing to serve our community and reach out. Not just in those times of need, but it goes beyond that. As Olivia said, with cards and phone calls, and it just doesn’t stop during that tragic event.
Wendy Lyons:
This coroner team doesn’t forget each and every one of these cases, and they make an effort to keep reaching out. Because if anybody’s had the misfortune of losing someone, and I know everyone has one way or another, that grief just doesn’t go away. You just don’t get over it. You just don’t forget about it. You live that. So for this team to reach out to people and let them know, “I’m thinking of you,” or, “Hey, I remember that horrible day, I’m thinking of you during this time,” that says so much. And when May 17 rolls around, I want the people of our community to stand up with me and David, and be proud to reelect Michael and his team into this office, because they’ve served us so well for the past 12 years.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Wow. I’d like to say that I’d like to extend my thanks to both of you for having us and putting us on this podcast, and sharing with us and letting us share with you so many of our experiences and what we go through in a day. And I hope you can see that we are very cohesive. It really is just a pleasure to not be in a situation where you have to work with people you don’t like, for whatever reason, or people who don’t like you. You can really feel a part of our office when you’re in our office. We try to even share that with other offices that we interrelate with. Whether it’s police or EMS or fire, whoever, we try to share with them where we come from. Olivia is known for baking cookies. For not only our office, but actually for a lot of the decedent’s families.
Cassie Robinson:
Can I interrupt really quick with that? I knew about Olivia’s cookies before I met Olivia. This was years and years ago. Maybe-
Wendy Lyons:
How did we not get the cookies brought out here?
Cassie Robinson:
Oh, they’re coming. I can guarantee you. We said it now. But I’d say that was eight years ago. I had Olivia’s cookies and I thought, “I’ve got to meet this woman.” You’ve got to taste the cookies.
Wendy Lyons:
Olivia, your cookies must really be good.
Olivia Hughes:
Well, I started out baking them when we went to the funerals of our decedent’s families because I thought, “What kind of gift can I give back that’s a personal touch, that’s not just flowers that everybody sends?” And I thought, “Well, baking my homemade cookies shows a more personal touch.” And that’s how I got it started with my cookies. And then I started sending them to dispatch and EMS and to the commonwealth attorney’s office, the county attorney’s office, and it just spread from there. Everywhere I went, I was like, “I’ve got to bake them cookies.”
Wendy Lyons:
And now everybody’s come to expect them.
Olivia Hughes:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Well, good deal. I just wanted to thank y’all, too. Our listeners on the podcast, they listen a lot to learn. It’s more than a story being told, and we’re proud to have you all. And we’re really fortunate to get the opportunity to sit down. And I believe that the listeners will now feel what it’s like to work in that environment. Because, again, TV and Hollywood really doesn’t portray anything of what you do accurately at all. And to especially the resonance on your personal lives and the dedication you have, I think that they’re going to joy listening to that. So, thank y’all for opening your hearts and your experiences to the people that listen to this podcast. I think all of them, and just like me and Wendy, are grateful.
Coroner Michael Hughes:
Well, once again, we’re grateful to you all. I thank you for that kind comment. And I hope someday I can do something else that’s interesting, and come to back and talk with y’all again.
David Lyons:
Absolutely.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, we’d certainly love to have you. Thank you all so much. Michael, Olivia, Cassie, thank you so much for coming, taking your evening. Cassie, I know you’re so sleepy. I’ll give you a pillow and a blanket in a moment, but thank you all so much. And listeners, please, please, please. It’s so important that you get out on May 17th and keep these people in our community.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims, so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, where you’ll find show notes, transcripts, information about the presenters, and much, much more. We are also on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, which has closed captions for those that are hearing-impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more, and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast from. Make sure to subscribe to the Murder Police Podcast and set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.
