Unmasking the Serial Killer Robert Smallwood | Part 1 of 3 | April 12, 2022
Unmasking the Serial Killer Robert Smallwood | Part 2 of 3 | April 19, 2022
Unmasking the Serial Killer Robert Smallwood | Part 3 of 3 | April 26, 2022
In our 3rd and final part of this roller coaster ride of an investigation, Marci Adkins and Matt Brotherton describe how a suspect seeming appears out of nowhere through an older DNA sample, and justice is complete.
Hear more about:
· More about sex kits and why they sat for several years, and how that is being resolved
· 5th victim of sexual assault identified from 1998
· Another suspect comes into play
Show Transcript
Part 3 of 3
Matt Brotherton:
The victim stated that she had been taken by vehicle to Masterson Station Park, where she was forced to perform oral and vaginal sex on the suspect. In an attempt to flee the suspect made several threats of death to her if she did not comply with his wishes.
Wendy Lyons:
Worning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast, the unmasking of serial killer Robert Smallwood part three of three.
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah, I couldn’t be more proud of the work that we did as a unit, the cigarette butt goes off to the lab. And then, I think it was three weeks later, four weeks later-
Marci Adkins:
It didn’t match.
David Lyons:
No. I’m saying it because Wendy, unfortunately Wendy’s not in a room on this one, but no, you’re kidding me.
Matt Brotherton:
It didn’t match.
Marci Adkins:
It did not match.
David Lyons:
That’s [crosstalk 00:01:34].
Marci Adkins:
Another twist. This is probably a good time to talk about these surreptitious samples, the cigarette butt that was collected. We have very strict rules about submitting those for DNA for exactly the reason that Matt spelled out is, you don’t want to report out a false exclusion and have them eliminate that person based on that, when they might have picked up the wrong cigarette butt. Nowadays, it has to be in a controlled environment. We have very strict rules about what we’ll take. Although I think that if we had the whole story of the leaf blowing and the cleaning ahead of time, that would probably be good enough even now to get that sample tested.
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah, it was… I mean, we-
Marci Adkins:
I had no idea.
Matt Brotherton:
If you added up all the hours I have worked on my own yard in the 20 years I’ve owned my house, it doesn’t come close to equaling the amount of time and care that Dave and I spent on that parking lot.
David Lyons:
You almost got to wonder when they came out for the break, if someone didn’t look down and go, “Hmm.” This subconscious awareness that things aren’t right. Because it’s clean. They probably saw the pavement the first time. Yeah, in that case, it’s a controlled thing. Man, what a… I’m just, I’m impressed.
Matt Brotherton:
We were so excited to get the cigarette butt. We had identified a suspect who had every opportunity. He wasn’t in prison during any of the times, he’d change his name. He said that I was working when she was killed when he said he didn’t know who she was. He in fact wasn’t working when she was killed, he had shown up late. He matched everything and it wasn’t him.
Marci Adkins:
Did you ever second guess yourself, like maybe we did get the wrong cigarette?
Matt Brotherton:
Every day. 100%.
David Lyons:
I’m sure you would. You you’d be-
Matt Brotherton:
100%. We couldn’t have been more shocked that the cigarette butt did not match to our suspect. As a unit we were all so convinced that that was our guy, that the case was done, that we were going to sell this to all the networks and all the movies. And I was figuring out that a young Zach Galifianakis was going to play me in the movie. And we were all really excited about where this was going to go. And it wasn’t it. And we couldn’t believe it.
Marci Adkins:
There was a block of kits that came in and I didn’t know if they were cherry picked because they had a similar MO, if they were a similar timeframe, a certain timeframe you were looking at, or if it was just a hail Mary, and you had explained that this was just another attempt to clean off the shelves.
Matt Brotherton:
And I think also, and I’m assuming your listeners are pretty savvy, but when we say kits, what we are talking about is sexual assault evidence collection kits.
Marci Adkins:
Yes.
Matt Brotherton:
And if you’ve never seen one, it’s a cardboard box that I don’t know how like-
David Lyons:
About the size of a pencil box in school. Right?
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah, about the size, maybe twice as many as those. But this is when it is a standardized kit that when we have say a homicide victim that we suspect of sexual assault, that it has a checklist in, it has a variety of things, but it is used. There is a kit that we’ll have for swabs from the victim, but then also swabs for the suspect. And so these kits may contain just samples off of a victim at a victim that’s presented to the hospital as a victim of sexual assault. The nurse examiner will collect the stuff, put it in the box, send it away. Maybe what it is I have a suspect in a sexual assault a week later, and I bring that suspect down to headquarters and I’ve got a search warrant. And then maybe all that goes in that kit is suspect information, that suspect DNA. But these boxes will sit in the basement of headquarters until they get sent to the lab.
Marci Adkins:
This is probably a good place to add that the laboratory works with our stakeholders to update those kits periodically. We have a contract with a manufacturer of those kits. We purchase the kits and we provide them to all of the law enforcement agencies across the state. And they’re standardized. They can be customized to each victim based on what is reported to have happened. They can collect the different samples and not all samples apply to all cases.
Matt Brotherton:
And I will say that until 2018, was that the Safe Act? Does that sound right?
Marci Adkins:
The all kits?
Matt Brotherton:
Yep.
Marci Adkins:
That sounds about right.
Matt Brotherton:
So until about 2018, Police departments were up to their own discretion about what they did with these kits. So we had all of these kits sitting in the basement and they just weren’t sent off, and it would be for a couple of reasons. One is the detective just, you’re talking about a case from 1995 or something, CODIS really wasn’t up and running. Why would they even send the kit? They may not have a suspect to compare it to. Or what also isn’t uncommon, and still to this day, is a victim may come in and say… They may go to the hospital, present as a victim of sexual assault. A kit will be collected. We get it at headquarters. And then the next day they say, “I don’t want to move forward with the investigation,” for their own reason, whatever their reason is that they want to move forward, so that kit won’t be sent.
Matt Brotherton:
Or what’ll happen sometimes is a victim will come in and say, “I was sexually assaulted by this individual.” We then contact that individual. The individual is interviewed and the suspect says, “Yes, I had sexual contact with that person, but the sex was consensual.” So now we have this kit with a victim standard and a suspect standard, but that kit doesn’t say anything about the allegations of the assault. It just says, because all a kit ever says, is, did person A have contact with person B? It doesn’t speak to the nature or the dynamics of that assault. So if I have a suspect who says, “Yes, I had contact with this person,” that kit doesn’t matter for that specific case. So there were all these kits in the basement of headquarters that had never been sent off. I like to give the benefit of the doubt to say that they were in good faith, but a lot of times it was ignorance.
Matt Brotherton:
And so there was a grant, Lieutenant Curless worked with the lab and we were sending kits. The kits get sent. And that’s how we were able to identify that this 83 year old sexual assault victim from 1993 that this case had gone cold, that that case ended up linking to the same unknown contributor that was responsible for the death, we believe, of Sonora Allen, Erica Butler, and Doris Roberts. The report says, the following cases were compared to the Kentucky State Police forensic casework and convicted offender indexes and were found to match. [Inaudible 00:09:06] Erica Butler, Sonora Allen, Doris Roberts, and a fifth victim. And this was a name we hadn’t heard. We didn’t know. And we end up pulling the case.
Matt Brotherton:
So we end up getting this report that links another case, a 1998 case, that ends up being a sexual assault case. So I go pull the case report and the case report has an arrest record. And at this point we’re pretty confused about what we have. And this arrest report, if I can read from the arrest report-
David Lyons:
Absolutely.
Matt Brotherton:
On October 3, 1998, officer Sheridan Wright responded to a sexual assault report. The victim stated that she had been taken by vehicle to Masterson Station Park, where she was forced to perform oral and vaginal sex on the suspect. In an attempt to flee, the suspect made several threats of death to her if she did not comply with his wishes. Upon leaving the vehicle, the victim was able to obtain a partial license plate from the vehicle. We were able to locate the vehicle and the suspect. The suspect was escorted to headquarters for a taped interview. At that time, the suspect admitted to having sexual intercourse and oral sex with the victim. The suspect was charged with rape first, sodomy first and unlawful imprisonment first and taken to the Fayette County Detention Center.
Matt Brotherton:
And on that arrest report was the name of an individual, a guy named Robert Smallwood. We had not heard this name. It was the first time this name had come up in the investigation at all. And the first time we see it is linked to a DNA report that links this sexual assault victim’s perpetrator to the 83 year old sexual assault victim and the three murders, Erica Butler, Sonora Allen and Doris Roberts. And this case, the reason it came to our attention is because those kits in the basement were sent to clear the shelves, to put data into CODIS.
Matt Brotherton:
And so we look up this investigation and find out that this guy, Robert Smallwood, was arrested in October 3, 1998. He came into head quarters and said, “Yeah, I’ll submit to this kit. Yeah. I had sex with her. She’s a prostitute. And she got mad at me that I didn’t give her enough dope. And I just left her there at the park. I was tired of hearing her.” And he took it to trial and he won. And he was acquitted of the sexual assault of this woman because juries, it’s hard enough to get juries to believe victims of sexual assaults, but then when you can attack the credibility of this victim, because this victim because of their addiction is out in a dangerous lifestyle. And so now we have this name. We have this name and we look for the guy. And do you remember where he was?
Marci Adkins:
I don’t.
Matt Brotherton:
When we got his name, he was in prison for a second crack pipe charge.
David Lyons:
Just on a paraphernalia.
Matt Brotherton:
On a drug paraphernalia charge. He had violated some probation and was in the Roederer Farm in the Kentucky State Penitentiary. And Chris Schoonover and I drafted a search warrant for his DNA and drove to the prison and interviewed him.
Matt Brotherton:
And before I talk about the interview, I will say that again, I could not be more proud of the work that I did with that unit. When I think about that thing where we’re going to get the cigarette butt, the dedication we did over the months and months and months to eliminate suspects that we stayed. I mean, every time we would bring a Q-tip to the lab, we knew we got our guy. The ups and downs of this or fighting for these women who are some of the most vulnerable people in our society who don’t have people fighting for them. The work that I did with that unit, the leadership of James Curless, the work of everybody of staying focused on the case, couldn’t be more proud of it. I’d put us up against… I mean, I’ve been fortunate enough to travel, frankly, all over the country on cases and been to seminars. And I would put us up against any investigative unit in the country. And we didn’t catch this guy.
Matt Brotherton:
Sending kits off, sent the guy. Putting in place systems to take advantage of the information that we have at our disposal, that’s what caught him. And Chris Schoonover and I went and spoke to Robert Smallwood and he admitted to having sex with Erica Butler. He talked about how he was upset with her, that she got her bit of dope, and then she wasn’t doing what he wanted and he lost his temper with her. And then as we started to talk to him and started to push him on the other cases, he then became visibly upset with us and then refused to talk any further. And then at that point, I placed charges on him for the three murders and the sexual assault of the 83 year old.
David Lyons:
As far as the three murders, where did he stop? Did he give any indication except for Erica? Or did he pull up the brakes on you pretty quick?
Matt Brotherton:
He pulled up the brakes pretty quickly as we started to confront him about the others.
David Lyons:
It makes you wonder, if these are the only ones, because it’s hard to say. And maybe at sometime science will tell on that, too, but if they’re the only ones, if we don’t have bodies we’ve found, or we just don’t have anything connecting them yet.
Matt Brotherton:
Well, and there’s no way to know, right, until those samples go in there, and how many other sexual assaults were there.
David Lyons:
Exactly.
Matt Brotherton:
How many other sexual assaults that were never reported, because this was a guy who prayed on folks who aren’t going to be the most comfortable with calling the police?
David Lyons:
And they usually don’t.
Matt Brotherton:
They don’t.
David Lyons:
No, there’s a big pathology in sexual assault with sex workers on the street that never report it, never.
Marci Adkins:
This is a, this is a huge example. I think that there are still some people out there that don’t understand why the legislation was passed where we test all rape kits. And this is a huge example of why it is so important. You may have a case that because the victim has problems or because of their occupation, it’s not going to make a great case in court, but you have no idea how many other cases it might solve. How many serial offenders might be identified by testing all kits.
David Lyons:
It’s a huge public safety issue. It’s protecting the public from these people that, the boogieman, is what I used to call them. Where they don’t know the offender and it’s a true boogieman thing that’s out there looming around, the power to do that is incredible.
Matt Brotherton:
And that was one of the things when I took over as the Lieutenant of special victims in January of 2015, that the first thing I did as a unit was push to change our policy in the agency that all of our kits get sent, period.
Marci Adkins:
Yeah, you got ahead of the law.
Matt Brotherton:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And we did an inventory fairly early on to see how many kits we had.
David Lyons:
I still remember that.
Marci Adkins:
Because we had cases rolling in from you guys. We were signing them every week, signing those requests for examinations started in 2015.
Matt Brotherton:
Yep.
Marci Adkins:
And I don’t remember exactly. I meant to check on that before I came here. I don’t remember exactly what year the legislation passed, but it was somewhere in the timeframe of 2016 to 2018.
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah. It started to get some critical mass right after that. There was the documentary that the actress from Special Victims Unit, she was a big part of, but going around to these other police departments and Adam Edelen, who was the auditor at the time, the state auditor, he made a big push for it. And they started going around the state and they were finding really inconsistent storage patterns at some of these smaller police departments. They’d just have kits sitting in a desk drawer somewhere. When the Safe Act was passed, and I think it was 2018, because I was out of special victims at the time, we went around the state talking. And I presented these cases to the Kentucky Chiefs of Police Association to talk about, look, here’s this investigation that I did. And here’s why.
Matt Brotherton:
Marcy, as you said about sexual assault victims, when I took over the section, we did an audit of all of our untested kits. And there were cases that we had where victims had reported, had done a kit, had met with the victim advocate and the detective and knew the offender, but then would call the next day and say, “You know what, I’ve really thought about this. I’ve talked with my family and I don’t want to move forward with this.” And these victims as adults chose not to move forward in this investigation. And in respect for their wishes, the police department didn’t pursue the investigation. And unfortunately what that also meant was not sending that kit off.
Matt Brotherton:
And in so many of those cases, again, that kit has, you got some guy who rapes his wife and she chooses not to move forward. And he comes in and says, “Yes, we have sex. It’s consensual.” That kit doesn’t matter for that case. But did that guy rape two women in Tennessee 10 years ago?
David Lyons:
Exactly.
Matt Brotherton:
And that’s the value. Again, I would love it if the cigarette butt identified our suspect. I would love it. It would be great. I’d have a book tour about it. But what I’m even more proud of is having worked for someone like James Curless, who said, “Let’s take advantage of the system. Let’s take advantage of the data.” That there is a bunch of information sitting in basements of police departments and why I’m so happy about the Safe Act that made it a law, that all of these kits get sent, that police departments have an affirmative responsibility to take this evidence and submit it to the lab. And it came also with some increased funding for the lab, which was long overdue, because that’s always… The bottleneck has also been funding for the lab, getting their pay up, getting their funding up, getting this testing done.
David Lyons:
Because I know from my dinosaur age, when I was there, that was the big issue, is that they were triaged based on the reasons that you gave, not even more so because they weren’t valuable in a particular case, but because of the load going into Frankfurt was ridiculous. And if you’re talking about a couple weeks to get a result back, it was a lot longer back then. The mechanism, the personnel and just wasn’t there now. And there is room. There’s probably some agencies that just mishandled. I mean, we got to admit that, that that happens. But in most cases when I was there, it was a triage thing. Cleared by exception? Don’t send it. You just wouldn’t do that because there’s other kits that they’re trying to jockey into place on something that’s actually working a little harder at that moment.
Matt Brotherton:
And I was happy to say when we audited all of our kits, I don’t recall any kits that weren’t sent that should have regardless been sent. It was always a known suspect or a victim who did not want to pursue prosecution.
David Lyons:
Right.
Matt Brotherton:
I was happy for that for the agency, but I can look back at the rape of the 83 year old, that was a kit that was never sent because we just didn’t know any better.
David Lyons:
There you go. If the technology isn’t right in front of you and you don’t know what it can do, it’s hard to criticize people in that position, probably.
Matt Brotherton:
I’ll criticize folks for not seeking out ways to get better, but if they are acting in good faith and it’s something I’ll always talk about and I’ll ask you, do you know who Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman is?
Marci Adkins:
No.
Matt Brotherton:
Have you ever heard of the books On Killing or Killology?
David Lyons:
No. Those, for sure, yeah.
Matt Brotherton:
Okay. After an officer involved shooting, when should we take a statement from an officer?
David Lyons:
The latest science is to wait.
Matt Brotherton:
Two to three sleep cycles, you’ve heard that? So when I would talk about these cases to rooms full of cops, I would always say, and most cops, when I say On Killing, Killology, they’ve heard of this guy. They’ve heard of his teaching. I’ll say, “When do we interview cops after officer involved shootings?” And it’s a deafening chorus of everyone saying two to three sleep cycles. And I’ll ask cops, “Why?” “Well, it’s been a traumatic incident. What they have to do is get… The information’s all there, but we don’t want them to give inaccurate information. And so we want to give the person time to process everything.” And then I ask all those same cops, “When do we interview victims of sexual assault?” And generally, I see a light bulb go off in their head. And I’ll say, “When do we?”
David Lyons:
In the ER at the hospital right after the event.
Matt Brotherton:
Immediately after it’s happened. I’m guilty of it as well. I remember when I first went to homicide, we also were the on-call detectives for adult sexual assault. And I remember walking out of a room one time with a victim, and I said, “She can’t even tell me if it happened in a car or a truck. She’s making it up.” And what I have seen, and back to what I said about I’ll forgive if you’re trying to learn, but in law enforcement, every police officer knows that you don’t offer… You don’t interview an officer immediately after an officer involved shooting, but we’re always interviewing these sexual assault victims. And I’ll ask these guys, “Could being a victim of sexual assault be traumatic? Is it possible that they don’t have their thoughts together? When is this happening?” And it’s just my call, the call to arms I have, is that we take what we know and apply it.
David Lyons:
Exactly.
Matt Brotherton:
And treat these… Because when we’re talking about victims of sexual assault, when we look at the victims of Robert Smallwood, we’re talking about vulnerable people. We’re talking about the most vulnerable people in society. And so what are we doing as individual organizations or the professions as a whole to make, or that we’re taking the best practices? Are we sending every kit? Are we setting in place policies that ensure we get the best investigation that we get the best information?
David Lyons:
Absolutely.
Marci Adkins:
Incidentally, I did check. And Mr. Smallwood was not submitted as a convicted offender until 2008, after his conviction on this.
Matt Brotherton:
We got him in the jail. We got him in prison when he had just been sent there and he had not had a sample.
Marci Adkins:
I guess he didn’t have a conviction to get a ticket into the database until after all of this happened.
Matt Brotherton:
When did Kentucky get all felons?
Marci Adkins:
Oh gosh. 2002?
Matt Brotherton:
Well, because in 06, he would’ve been a convicted felon. If he got sent to Roederer he would’ve had to have been a convicted felon, but they may just not have sent it yet because his felony was a second possession of drug paraphernalia charge.
David Lyons:
Kind of on the low end of the scale for felonies, for sure.
Matt Brotherton:
To follow up on what happened with him is, he was charged with his actions about four incidents, the sexual assault of the 83 year old, the murder of Sonora Allen, the murder of Doris Roberts and the murder of Erica Butler and also the sexual assault of Erica Butler. With Doris Roberts and Sonora Allen, we did not indict initially on sexual assaults on them, because we couldn’t necessarily prove a sexual assault. With the death of Erica Butler, there was the witness who said he tied her up, he assaulted her, he raped her and he killed her, so we were comfortable on the indictment.
Matt Brotherton:
With each of those incidents, the only case there that is death penalty eligible is the death of Erica Butler, because it was a rape and a homicide at the same time. In Kentucky to be death penalty eligible, you have to have a homicide, but also some other sort of qualifying factor, more than one murder, a murder committed alongside another felony. Her death, because it was a murder and a sexual assault, made it death penalty eligible.
Matt Brotherton:
I do not believe had each of those cases been tried individually, which is what he was trying to do with his defense. He had been charged with all and he wanted it to be four separate trials. The Commonwealth, Cindy Rieker and Brad Bryant were successful in getting a 404B motion. I may get the number wrong, but I think I’m right. Where it says that there’s enough similarity in all of these acts that the jury should be allowed to hear them as one. That they’re similar enough that it outweighs the prejudicial nature of all of these cases being tried at once.
Matt Brotherton:
Mr. Smallwood fought it and fought it and fought it, and then once the judge ruled that the jury could hear all of them at once, even though I don’t think a jury would sentence him to the death penalty for the rape and murder of Erica Butler, once they would get to hear in that trial about the rape of the retired 83 year old school teacher, which is not death penalty eligible, I believe that a jury would sentence him to death for all of those crime. And Robert Smallwood ended up pleading guilty to life without parole.
David Lyons:
He did the math, as we say,
Matt Brotherton:
He did the math.
David Lyons:
He did the math. Do you know where he is incarcerated right now?
Matt Brotherton:
Eddyville?
David Lyons:
Probably. Yeah, that would be my first guess without looking. That’s our maximum security prison here in Kentucky. And it looks awful from the outside, if you’ve ever seen it.
Matt Brotherton:
I always thought it looked kind of cool. It’s kind of cliff side and by the lake.
David Lyons:
It’s not a resort, probably.
Matt Brotherton:
No, no.
David Lyons:
Exactly. More of a dungeon looking place. It’s pretty spooky.
Marci Adkins:
This is really rare, am I right? It’s rare that DNA solves the case or CODIS solves the case.
David Lyons:
Pretty much on its own leverage. Because again, all the tips…
Matt Brotherton:
This is a story, for me, it is a story about police departments taking advantage of what we know, of leveraging what we know and leveraging the resources that we have available, that we may not, because we just don’t see it in that light. We have these kits in the basement. We had the answer in the basement the whole time and let’s not be blind to the timeline here. The rape of the 83 year old woman was in-
Marci Adkins:
1998.
Matt Brotherton:
Was in ’98?
Marci Adkins:
Oh no, I’m sorry. That was the first one.
Matt Brotherton:
It was ’93.
Marci Adkins:
That’s 1993.
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah, let’s not be blind to the fact that here was the sexual assault of an 83 year old in 1993. The rape for which he was arrested was in 1998. We had the answer to that case at headquarters in 1998. Now, by the time we arrested Mr. Smallwood in 2006, the sexual assault victim, she had already died of natural causes. But you have a ’98 rape case that he beats at trial where we have the DNA that could have solved a 1993 case of an 83 year old woman. In 1999, we had the murder of Doris Roberts, in 2002, we had the murder of Sonora Allen, in 2006, we had the murder of Erica Butler.
Matt Brotherton:
And what we also have to deal with is the fact that a jury listened to the story of a victim and didn’t believe her and acquitted him, and he went out and then murdered three women. And what do we… what lessons are there for us in this about how do we do things better? I am a huge supporter of the profession. I couldn’t be prouder of my 23 years and the work that police officers do all over the country, but at the same time, I think we have an obligation to constantly evaluate the work we’re doing and also looking at supporting the lab. Okay, so I’ve got this kit in the basement. If the lab isn’t being funded enough, that if I send that kit to the lab and they’re like, “Yep, we’ll get it to you in five years.” Well then how are we betraying the most vulnerable people in society then, by not funding these resources that we know solve crimes, that we know save people.
David Lyons:
Over money.
Matt Brotherton:
Yeah.
David Lyons:
I can… Whole nother conversation on where money goes and probably doesn’t make any effort, but…
Matt Brotherton:
I wish this were a story about what a great investigative unit I was a part of. I wish were a story about how I’m the greatest investigator of all time, but that’s not what it’s a story about. It’s a story about putting in place systems that take care of folks.
David Lyons:
True, and moving forward.
David Lyons:
This has been fantastic. Thanks for coming. Marcy, thanks for coming again.
Marci Adkins:
Thank you for having me.
David Lyons:
Yeah. We’ll do it again and again, because I think you’ve got some other cases, too. Matt, we need to look at some of the other ones and have you back again, because I know you did more than just Robert Smallwood. There was probably one or two, probably, I would imagine. And we’ll look, but I especially like the insights. When you were talking about wanting to be the best investigative unit and everything, I will say this, is that one of the things that was going on was restraint and think Curless was… I think the world of James Curless too, but you had restraint. There were several opportunities that if people weren’t thinking ethically and going in for the long game, a lot of big errors could have been made. And sometimes this isn’t about going and arresting somebody. It is about finding the truth. So even though you were disappointed a few times, people were protected in that. That’s pretty cool stuff.
David Lyons:
So thank you all again. Come back for sure, and we’ll do some more. We’ll think of some other cases and this time we’ll make sure we do what we can to have Wendy in the room.
Marci Adkins:
Yes.
David Lyons:
Good deal. Thanks.
Matt Brotherton:
Been a pleasure.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims, so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, where you’ll find show notes, transcripts, information about the presenters and much, much more.
David Lyons:
We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. Make sure to subscribe to the Murder Police Podcast and set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop. And please tell your friends.
David Lyons:
Lock her down, Judy.
