Tuesday May 27, 2025
The haunting disappearance of three-year-old Madeleine McCann from her family’s vacation apartment in Portugal continues to captivate and disturb us nearly two decades later. What began as a parents’ nightmare on May 3, 2007, has evolved into one of the world’s most enduring missing child cases, spawning international investigations, media frenzies, and countless theories.
Our deep dive into the McCann case examines the critical elements that still perplex investigators and true crime enthusiasts alike. We explore the controversial decision by Kate and Gerry McCann to leave their three young children sleeping while they dined nearby, and the subsequent cadaver dog alerts that shifted suspicion toward the parents themselves. The investigation’s early missteps—particularly the failure to properly secure the crime scene—mirror other famous cases where contaminated evidence hampered justice.
The most compelling recent development centers on Christian Brückner, a convicted sex offender now considered the prime suspect by German authorities. The disturbing evidence found at his abandoned factory—including dozens of children’s swimsuits and digital materials—paints a troubling picture of a predator potentially linked to Madeleine’s disappearance. With Brückner’s prison release looming in 2025, investigators race against time to build a prosecutable case.
We also confront the media’s powerful role in shaping public perception of the McCanns, raising questions about responsible reporting and the court of public opinion. Whether Madeleine’s case involves a lone predator or potentially connects to larger child trafficking operations remains one of many unanswered questions in this heartbreaking mystery.
Join our conversation about this landmark case and share your own theories. What are your three key points about the Madeleine McCann disappearance? The search for truth—and justice for a little girl who would now be approaching adulthood—continues.
Transcript
Wendy LyonsHost00:03
three things a murder police podcast production. What they did find is that he had this like factory, like an old abandoned factory, and I guess upon examination of that they had found hard drives and usb sticks that had some pretty disturbing material and images on it and that there were some writings suggested that he was involved in Madeline’s disappearance. Now, also even more disturbing was at this abandoned factory there was like a plethora of children’s clothing, swimsuits like over 75 swimsuits of children’s. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast Three things Madeline McCann. Warning the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast Three Things Madeline McCann. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast as we discuss once again a new topic that we’ve entered into, talking about three things of particular cases, and this time I wanted to talk about Madeline McCann. So, david, how are you?
David LyonsHost01:25
Doing good. I like doing these. They’re kind of fun. They’re fun to. I don’t think we’ve researched as much when we have to do these to dig deep and get them put together and it looks like people. It’s fun. The best part is when people actually go and they share their their thoughts on this. That’s the biggest thing. And so as we go through these are kind of they of halfway opinions.
Wendy LyonsHost01:43
They’re halfway addressing questions that are out on the ether. I think they’re just our three things, that’s it Exactly so.
David LyonsHost01:47
don’t hesitate, on YouTube or one of the social media platforms, to go ahead and jump in. And what do you think? Are we wrong?
Wendy LyonsHost01:54
What are your three?
David LyonsHost01:54
things. That’s it. Yeah, what are your three things? Because I think it’s a great way to have a good discussion on that that’s what we’re going to do today is Madeline McCann.
Wendy LyonsHost02:01
Yeah, and you know, a lot of people may not know about this, this was a case from back in 2007, may 3rd, and it’s the missing case of a little three-year-old girl out of Portugal whose family was on a vacation, or holiday as they call it. So why don’t you summarize the case a little more for us?
David LyonsHost02:17
Sounds good. Here’s what this case looks like. Okay, I’m going to lay this out more like in a time frame, since it’s been so many years since this happened. So let’s go all the way back to 2007. On May 3rd, and we’re going to go to a place called Praia da Luz, portugal, at a resort called the Ocean Club Resort, and this is where we stage up At that time, on May 3rd 2007, madeline McCann she was three vanishes from her bed in the McCann family’s holiday apartment at the Ocean Club Resort while her parents dine at the Tapas restaurant about 160 feet away.
02:49
Kate and Jerry McCann had left Madeline and her twin siblings sleeping and the parents would check in and look in on the kids at intervals. At one point, kate discovered Madeline was missing at around 10 pm. Following that, the Portuguese police launch an investigation and border alerts are issued. The apartment’s cordoned off, but early handling of the scene is later criticized for procedural flaws. You know we see that a lot in a lot of cases Continuing on in mid-May, madeline’s case gets massive media coverage.
03:17
British police and experts, including sniffer dogs and forensic teams, assist in the search, keep going into the summer. By July 2007, a British sniffer dog trained to detect human blood and cadavers reacted to the McCann’s rental car and the apartment. This leads to a shift in the investigation’s focus where they move from an abductor to possibly the parents being involved in her disappearance On September 2007, kate and Jerry McCann are actually declared formal suspects by Portuguese police. The theory is Madeline died accidentally and her parents covered it up. Move on to September 9th, just a couple days later, and the McCanns return to the UK still under suspicion by the Portugal police and, frankly, by now, a lot of the people in the public they’ve seen this in the media. October 2007, a high-profile battle begins as the McCanns sue multiple newspapers over defamation and false reporting. It looks like the tabloids got hold of this, like they usually do, maybe Now jumping into the next year. On July 28, 2008, the Portuguese authorities actually put the case on hold and lift the suspect status on the McCanns due to a lack of evidence. During 2009 and 2010, the McCanns actually hit the road on a public and legal advocacy tour to keep the case alive, they hire private investigators and a new sketch of the potential suspect is released.
04:37
Let’s move on now to 2011. In May of 2011, scotland Yard launches Operation Grange, a UK-based review of the case, at Prime Minister David Cameron’s request, into 2013,. Operation Grange identifies 38 persons of interest. Police announce Madeline may have been inducted during a burglary gone wrong. That’s a wide net that they developed through that investigation Moving into 2014,. In June of 2014, the United Kingdom and Portuguese police conduct a series of digs in Praia da Luz. No evidence is found. In 2017, on the 10-year anniversary, may 3, 2017, investigators say they are pursuing a critical lead and Madeline’s parents reaffirm their belief that she is alive.
05:22
On June 3, 2020, german prosecutors identify Christian Bruckner, a convicted rapist and child sex offender, as a new suspect. He was living near Praia da Luz in 2007 and had a history of burglary and sex crimes. In June 2020, german police say they have evidence Madeline is dead, but do not release it publicly. They open a murder investigation. That’s very unique that this crosses international jurisdictional lines so many times. In late 2020 into 2021, german investigators find hundreds of child abuse images and disturbing writings linked to Bruckner. He denies involvement in Madeline’s case.
06:03
In April 2022, portuguese authorities formally declare Bruckner an official suspect to prevent the statute of limitations from expiring. In 2023, more evidence surfaces, including disturbing alleged notes and potential cell phone data, but no conclusive proof yet. Getting closer to where we are today, in early 2024, prosecutors revealed that Bruckner is under investigation for multiple sexual offenses, but still no charges in the McCann case. In May 2025, as of this month, reports suggest German authorities are under pressure to formally charge Bruckner before his release from prison in September 2025 for unrelated crimes. They cite new leads and possible confessions, but legal hurdles remain. So where we’re at today is Madeline still missing. Christian Bruckner remains the proud suspect and the case is still open and active in Germany, portugal and the United Kingdom.
Wendy LyonsHost06:59
Well, for people who didn’t know or doesn’t know anything about this case, that’s very helpful. So thank you.
David LyonsHost07:03
Good deal. It was helpful for me. Again, I have to go back, like you do, and research these. We hear about them while we’re going through them over the years in the news, but there was a lot I learned just in that little bit. So, without further to do as Jasper used to, say, further to do. Exactly Go ahead. And what are your three things? You go first.
Wendy LyonsHost07:22
Well, as soon as I heard about this case back in 2007, the first question that burned in my mind and still, 18 years later, burns in my mind. I mean, you know, I have a passion for children. I work with children for a living and had for years. But my first thought was and I’m by no means trying to be ugly toward the parents but who goes to dinner and leaves three children unattended?
David LyonsHost07:49
Yeah.
Wendy LyonsHost07:51
I mean this resort. From what I could tell from looking at the pictures of it when this was being covered by the news, it was a fairly nice resort. It wasn’t just a run-of-the-mill two-star resort. It looked very nice. I’ve never been to it, but it looked nice. The resort did Ocean Club, it was called. They did have a nanny service or like a babysitting service, and from what I recall, the McCann’s, I think, had utilized that a couple of times. So my question was always why did you not utilize the service? Who chooses to put 18-month-old twins and a three-year-old toddler to bed and leave and go to dinner? And the resort or, I’m sorry, the restaurant they went to, is a tapas restaurant. It was roughly 50 meters away.
David LyonsHost08:41
Right.
Wendy LyonsHost08:41
You’re not just setting out back on the patio and the kids are in there sleeping. You’re walking a good distance to go to dinner.
David LyonsHost08:48
That’s a common theme and I think that we can ask that question without going into the world of victim blaming, because it’s shared by most parents.
08:58
So it’s not quite victim blaming, but we got to admit too that unfortunately, when we have these, any kind of tragic event as there are contribute, there are factors that contribute to risk that are displayed there. So it and we and you know what, and it’s also not unnatural to compare things that go on around us with the way we would behave or look at it. So you’re not the only one, I think, probably millions of people. The first thing they thought is like again, why were you so far away?
09:27
And there’s there’s and I guess that there’s some avenue of diligence and making regular checks. I get that and everything. Maybe, maybe a little bit of being naive about the environment and forgetting where we’re at. You know, we always talk about how, maybe many, many years ago, people would talk about unlocked doors and windows in our homes and now you’ve got triple dead boats and things like that and alarm systems.
Wendy LyonsHost09:50
Cameras all over the house.
David LyonsHost09:53
But that’s a natural thing that people ask. I asked it too, you know, because I have a daughter, you have a son, and the idea that we do that, so I will get ahead of that right now. I don’t think it’s victim blaming, it’s a risk factor and and again and any we’ve talked about that over and over again that one of the principal things in investigations is identifying identifying vulnerabilities and risk, and that’s it is. Is that, uh, my prayers go out to them.
Wendy LyonsHost10:19
They always have oh yeah, I’m sure they beat themselves up over it, but I think one thing I was, and not that it’s okay to leave a 13 or 14 year old, but it’s not like they’re sitting there watching a movie and they’re 13 and 14 and you’re just going to go eat real quick and you told them to not open this door.
David LyonsHost10:35
You’re talking about toddlers kind of emotionally attached to that part is we’re way away from what we’d call latchkey, we’re away from small responsibilities and, you know, in having kids who are educated on what to do, if these four things happen, fire somebody stranger at the door, things like that, they’re not capable of that.
Wendy LyonsHost10:58
No, I mean they’re still in diapers for crying out loud.
David LyonsHost11:00
Yeah, so, and I think that complicates things I think that we could probably look at how anybody that saw the case saw the focus was first on an intruder and then it leaned into the two parents. Right, and I’m not saying that they wouldn’t have gotten examined anyway, but it’s certainly there we go, those kind of questions that make you go, hmm.
11:24
Yes, it’s, certainly there we go, those kind of questions that make you go, hmm. And so I’m sure the people that were there, even when they’re looking at an intruder situation, they probably, to be honest with you, they probably even looked at it as did she get up and wander away. I mean, that’s one thing you don’t hear, that’s a probability at three is opening the door or going through a window and wandering away, and so we, maybe they got covered in the news and then didn’t get covered in the news Either way. I think that when they started looking at the parents and there was other things that came on that is it maybe magnified, the focus zoomed in on them a little bit, because, again, I think rationally, as parents and whatnot, we look at that and we’re like I don’t, I don’t, I wouldn’t do that, I wouldn’t do that.
Wendy LyonsHost12:07
Yeah, I mean, you certainly can’t always put yourself in other people’s shoes, but there’s some things that just as a parent, you just don’t do and leaving your children unattended, while you go enjoy a dinner. Is is one of them. And and again, why not utilize the babysitting service? And if they were busy that night, then guess what? You don’t go eat tapas tonight, you go tomorrow night, when they are available.
David LyonsHost12:24
Yeah, parenting one-on-one maybe.
Wendy LyonsHost12:25
Again.
David LyonsHost12:26
I think we’re on the edge of victim blaming without being there.
Wendy LyonsHost12:29
Yeah, and I’m not trying to throw a stone at them.
David LyonsHost12:32
No, and I’ll defend that, because it’s a logical thing that people ask that we could all, at some point we can all collectively look at something and say that’s beyond the pale. The mark’s not met. Like I said, three, that’s beyond the pale. The mark’s not met, like I said three years old and 18 months old, for all of us is not going to happen.
Wendy LyonsHost12:46
That could have been prevented. That’s it. That’s all I’ll say about that Well, good deal.
David LyonsHost12:50
And again, that doesn’t take away the pain and the loss?
Wendy LyonsHost12:53
No, not at all.
David LyonsHost12:54
And everything on it, but we have to look at it and maybe a message in that is a reminder to people that these things that we hold as precious we have to regard as precious right. I mean it’s, you know it’s. Look at how many kids are left in hot cars.
Wendy LyonsHost13:10
Oh God, that’s a whole other topic. Exactly Makes my blood boil.
David LyonsHost13:14
I unfortunately went to too many of those, so we’ll kind of go on to your number two.
Wendy LyonsHost13:18
Okay.
David LyonsHost13:18
So we don’t have a full-on parenting class? Yes, thank you. So good deal. What’s your number two?
Wendy LyonsHost13:22
Well, why the cadaver? You have to excuse me. I’ve made myself some notes here.
David LyonsHost13:25
I did too.
Wendy LyonsHost13:27
So why did the cadaver dogs alert? In both the apartment and the McCann’s rental car? You know, I don’t know if you recall, but they had brought out cadaver dogs and they had alerted to both of those areas and the alert suggested presence of blood and human remains. But then the follow-up test ran conclusive or at some point. Somebody said, well, they were kind of contaminated.
David LyonsHost13:53
So I just thought.
Wendy LyonsHost13:54
You know, usually when you have these dogs and they’re highly trained dogs not that dog can’t make a mistake, but it hit on both that little flat they were staying in and then hit in the car.
David LyonsHost14:07
There we go. Wow, we need to do an episode. We need to get a professional, trained cadaver dog handler on the show.
Wendy LyonsHost14:15
Yes.
David LyonsHost14:16
And I’ve thought about again that’s one thing we like doing is we like bringing everybody specific skill sets that people bring, and that’s the next one.
Wendy LyonsHost14:23
You know we actually know some through our dealings with Miss Sandra Hastie. That’s true. We’ve met several cadaver handlers, so we need to do that. Several cadaver handlers.
David LyonsHost14:31
So we need to do that Because here’s what we got. I think on there is that nothing’s absolute. I know that from just my naive impression of it and having your dog, becca, and dogs I’ve had we know that their sense of smell is tremendously larger than ours.
Wendy LyonsHost14:47
Oh, my yes.
David LyonsHost14:48
And that we know that you can train dogs specifically to pick up on different things and we get that. So in this case, I guess what you’re looking at is, I guess the probabilities would be they contact that smell. Then I guess you got to ask is that smell related to Madeline? Can they distinguish between human and animal or other material that decomposes? That would be a question I would have. Now I know how they train. They actually use parts of people to when they train.
Wendy LyonsHost15:20
And I agree with that. But what I’m thinking is maybe it was something else, but what are the odds that it was two something else’s?
David LyonsHost15:28
in both places they had been, I think that’s why we need to get a cadaver dog trainer. We need to get a handler, because I, because I don’t know, uh, here’s the thing, it shifted the focus back to them, right?
Wendy LyonsHost15:40
I mean yes.
David LyonsHost15:41
And and okay, so that’s reasonable to look at that and say, okay, we have to check this stuff out. Me, I always look at those third 10 million questions as to it is critical thinking when you, when you get that information, what are the vulnerabilities in that information, what is the science in that information? And you always have to look at what the probabilities are of it being inaccurate and accept that as part of the decision what you do with that information. But for sure, I think the big thing here is it really narrowed that focus on them as suspects in the case.
16:13
And that in and of itself, like we’ve talked before, is not unreasonable. We don’t want to believe that anybody would harm their children, but they do, they do, they do and I think when we talked about JonBenet Ramsey, that was a thing that I think a stumbling point for a lot of people is that your beautiful, precious daughter that you love, but some things happen inside walls of people’s homes.
Wendy LyonsHost16:36
that isn’t right yeah, everything sometimes looks great from the outside, but you don’t know what happens.
David LyonsHost16:41
That’s it inside there’s accidents and there’s people get emotionally hijacked. There’s there’s so much, but I I think that what that tell when I you know, because I saw the same thing and we talked about it riding around is I think we need to talk to some cadaver dog trainers and handlers.
16:57
I really want to learn more about how they do it and what are specifically that they can do. I mean, I’ve even heard and read that some dogs can sense the smell of somebody in a tree that had roots in the area where somebody decomposed. I can’t say that’s impossible. I mean because that olfactory system with them is off the hook, just off the hook.
17:21
So I’m with you. It’s like the thing is the probability of in two locations, independent locations, focused back on the same people. Yeah, you’re starting to get into some probabilities that are pretty weird. So I’d be interested too. So I guess what we got to do is we got to get us a cadaver dog handler.
Wendy LyonsHost17:39
Well, we know a few that we can pull from Exactly.
David LyonsHost17:42
We’ve got to do that for sure. So, that said, what’s your number three?
Wendy LyonsHost17:45
My third thing there’s been evidence that has been found with this guy named Christian Bruckner. That has been found with this guy named Christian Bruckner I’m sure I’m not pronouncing it right, but there’s been links to him to this case and I’ve scribbled my notes as I’ve been studying this.
David LyonsHost18:01
I’m going to reference it, so don’t mind if I don’t make eye contact. Nobody testifies in court without looking at notes.
Wendy LyonsHost18:05
Thank you, well, I’m under my testifying mode right now. So what we know is that he was living nearby in 2007. And, like I said, this happened in May of 2007, may 3rd, and he had had a long history of sexual violence. His phone had pinged in that area during that time frame. He had at some point allegedly made statements about kidnapping a child, but there’s no direct forensic link to that.
18:34
But what they did find is that he had this factory like an old abandoned factory and I guess upon examination of that they had found hard drives and USB sticks that had some pretty disturbing material and images on it and that there were some writings suggested that he was involved in Madeline’s disappearance. Now, also even more disturbing was at this abandoned factory there was like a plethora of children’s clothing, swimsuits like over 75 swimsuits of children’s toys, like all this was out there on this old abandoned factory. So you know he’s gotten brought into this as of you know, semi-recent, but he’s currently serving a seven-year sentence for the rape of a 72-year-old woman. So I’m just appalled at all this evidence of this Christian guy. You know one of his friends had supposedly said he had made a quote and of course it’s not been verified that she didn’t scream.
David LyonsHost19:49
Supposedly he told the friend this yeah, he made a statement somewhere A statement.
Wendy LyonsHost19:52
A statement, yeah, now, like I said, I don’t know that it’s been verified or if there was proof of that, but it’s just that all these years there was nothing, and now this guy’s name’s gotten brought into it if it’s true, it’s an incredible break yeah, yeah and it shows that, that it may not happen fast, but it does and it’s fascinating.
David LyonsHost20:15
The circumstantial case against him is amazing. The statements to another party, they’re difficult.
Wendy LyonsHost20:20
Yeah, I mean, anybody could make statements if they’re pissed at you.
David LyonsHost20:23
That’s it, and it’s happened right in everything. So it takes it up that the circumstantial part swimsuits children’s clothing children’s toys.
Wendy LyonsHost20:35
Who has that?
David LyonsHost20:36
That’s it exactly, and why, and I guess I’m thinking investigatively. What could be going on too, is they may be trying to identify, they may be getting to try to identify when those particular swimsuits were manufactured and distributed and what parts of the country they were distributed in and were they limited?
20:56
Were there any special? And then maybe, if you kept pulling that thread, do you start to compare those things to people or kids that are in the databases that went missing from beaches and pools. I’m really this is that whole thing of just rolling out where you would go with that, because it’s like if it’s circumstantial now, but you take things like that and you analyze them to see if they, if there’s any tangible, real physical evidence that can be construed from that. I’m just thinking the possibilities, but the amount of time are incredible on that right to do that yes.
21:29
Because those third-party statements they’re kind of hearsay until they’re not Right. I do know that when I was reading too that there’s been pressure applied to the German authorities to charge him before he gets out. And I understand that, because if he gets out he’s going to hit the road probably.
Wendy LyonsHost21:46
Oh yeah, I’m sure, but you know, what do we?
David LyonsHost21:47
always talk about, at least in the United States, and other systems in other countries have nuances that are different. But you know you can’t do that until you have it. You can feel very strongly, but we’ve talked before and it’s so hard on family members that have survived these horrific things. Is that whole thing of everybody knows. Everybody knows and maybe everybody does know. But you know, like Rob Wilson said when he talked about cold cases or pending cases, knowing it, improving it are two different oh yeah, it’s two vastly different things.
Wendy LyonsHost22:19
And you know one thing I wanted to add when we were talking about the children in the in the uh being in the little apartment, if you will, there had been mention of actually a detective on one of these documentaries on this. Years ago I watched he had made reference that the he felt like these children were sedated.
David LyonsHost22:41
Oh, I remember that. I remember that too. Yeah, and he’s talking about the babies and that.
Wendy LyonsHost22:46
Yeah Well, and who knows if she was cause?
22:48
she’s gone, right. I mean, if you’re going to sedate two, why not sedate the third? Because you want them all to sleep. You don’t want them to wake up if you’re not there. So my guess this is only my guess if you’re going to sedate two, sedate three. So, and supposedly this detective that I’d watched, he said, through all the commotion in this little apartment and the people coming in and out and doors, closing and lifting stuff and flipping things over, he said these twins never woke up.
23:15
Yeah, there we go, never woke up. I’m going to tell you, I know some kids are heavy sleepers, but I’m going to tell you, working with 18-month-olds them, little things, sometimes they’re good sleepers, but sometimes you make the slightest sound in there. You’re ah dang. I was trying to be so quiet and I woke them up. But if you’re moving chairs and tables and beds and people’s talking and lots of voices are talking, he said those kids never woke up.
David LyonsHost23:39
You know what? And that walks back to that first conversation on your number one, doesn’t it?
Wendy LyonsHost23:43
Yeah, that’s what. Yeah, that’s why I said I meant to reference that.
David LyonsHost23:45
Yeah, I guess the theory is did somebody do that to make that easier, to leave them alone so they don’t get up and wander off? Yeah, because they’re going to sleep, you don’t?
Wendy LyonsHost23:57
want them to wake up, Because what if, supposedly, they were doing checks every 30 minutes? So what happens if you know you leave and five minutes later they wake up and you’re not coming back for 25 minutes.
24:06
Now there they are crying yeah or trying to get out, I mean. But you know also, I think she was a doctor of some sorts the detective had kind of made reference to. She had access to this sedation medicine and he called it by name. It’s nothing that I don’t think we have here, at least I haven’t heard of it. I’m not a medical, press medical professional. But he made reference that she as’t think we have here, or at least I haven’t heard of it.
David LyonsHost24:32
I’m not a medical professional, but he made reference that she, as a doctor, would have access to this kind of sleep aid. But here’s how many times do we see in cases where people use things like Benadryl and histamines, which I guess works, but in cases where they give too much. Yes or in really horrible cases and he even kind of hinted to that.
Wendy LyonsHost24:51
What if she got too much and the parents did something with her? Because, oh my gosh, maybe we gave a fatal dose?
David LyonsHost24:58
Yeah, we’re back to that theory.
Wendy LyonsHost25:00
But you know. But yes, you’re right, some people do give the Benadryl to get them to sleep through the night. And I don’t, obviously we don’t know. But it was kind of odd that that detective did mention, or I think, some investigator they called him he did mention the sedation medicine and how those twins didn’t wake up. So then it makes you think did Madeline wake up If you gave it to all three of them? Maybe not, but someone back early on the case said well, I saw a man carrying a sleeping child. Well, maybe if she’s sedated, she is sleeping.
David LyonsHost25:36
Maybe she would never have waken up. That would validate that statement. Yes, and the other two wouldn’t wake up, yeah. Yes, I mean that would make it again another vulnerability in the whole situation, and was he?
Wendy LyonsHost25:45
going to come back for the other two and just didn’t, because then they came back in that time and she’s gone.
David LyonsHost25:49
I don’t know if he was collecting kids. That’s crazy.
Wendy LyonsHost25:51
Well, with 75 swimsuits and toys, I think he might have been yeah.
David LyonsHost25:55
Maybe True and never know. Maybe he had an age preference too.
Wendy LyonsHost25:58
So those are my three things. Good deal. What about yours?
David LyonsHost26:02
Good ones, that everybody still questions to this day. I think that the I know that the Portuguese police remove them as suspects and a lot of people were confused about that.
26:13
But you know, even if you don’t remove your suspects I think maybe that was, and of course the investigation got picked up internationally by other people but it’s a good reminder to look in other places. Don’t just overfocus, don’t ever overfocus. So mine are kind of common themes that we’ve seen before. One that the question people still ask, kind of like they asked about your number one, is the failure to secure that crime scene properly in the beginning, much like JonBenet Ramsey, much like other cases.
Wendy LyonsHost26:41
So many people went in and out of there Exactly.
David LyonsHost26:44
And I guess where that hit me from somebody that not only did it but then as a leader in the organization making sure these things are done, is. You know in the beginning, on these cases they’re like in JonBenet if you believe that it’s an abduction and or a runaway, you know you’re basing it on what you’ve got in the information and so you may not put all those pieces together to go to that next alert level to secure it.
27:12
But a fundamental thing in the business is everything is a crime scene until it’s not, and I guess, without preaching or anything like that, it’s another reminder to people that are on the job is to lock that down. It can be hard If you have an emotionally distraught family and other families coming over. Think about what that’s like for a minute.
Wendy LyonsHost27:33
Oh yeah.
David LyonsHost27:33
Is what you’re doing? Is you’re evacuating that home? You should be having everybody out and actually transported. This is transported down to headquarters in separate cars and stuff like that, and then when the other family and friends start showing up they can’t come in and that’s rough on.
Wendy LyonsHost27:49
Oh sure.
David LyonsHost27:50
But again, it’s like the sanctity of that environment and later it can get bigger or smaller based on information. But holding on to it, I think it’s just another example, because the problem is is do we? You know the trace evidence theory? We take things into a crime scene and we take things out. Is our things manipulated? Uh, yeah, that’s how you can wind up with material in a scene that just confuses everything extra fingerprints and stuff that we have to run down. And if you can’t run them down and we charge somebody, then the defense comes up and says, well, what about this thumbprint right here? And it might have been aunt nana that stopped out with some bread pudding to make everybody feel better. I mean, it can be any of those. But back to it, I guess, um of response 101 as you lock that scene down.
28:35
Right, uh, a lot of what you do in this business in the, in hindsight will be unnecessary, but you do it because of the probability. I remember, uh, in the cases that me and and the people I worked with, is that when you went to the ops office, you almost always requested a sexual assault examination kit, and I remember one of the medical examiners one time. Why are you doing that? We don’t have any. I’m like, well, we don’t know, and they’re going to go away in a little bit.
29:00
And you always ask them for fingernail scrapings, even if your case doesn’t look like that. A lot of times, you always ask for a gunshot residue testing, even if you didn’t have a gun around, with the idea being that I got one shot, we’ve got one shot, and you recover it.
29:14
Yes, same thing with the scene, and that’s hard because cops go into so many death scenes that aren’t criminal and they’re not suspicious and they’re sad and they’re tragic, but something about that. You have to stop that in the beginning. Again, you can always open it back up, make it bigger or make it smaller. So that was my number one. All right, the number two is one that comes back to what you were talking about on taking kids out of somewhere. Could it be part of a child trafficking operation? Oh yeah, possibly, even with this identified person. Now we don’t know yet. We do know a lot of those very evil pedophile. People like to share stuff. They like to share experiences, pictures and victims.
29:59
And so it’s a bigger problem, I think, than people know. I remember Ray the DA rest in peace, ray. Up until you know, I remember, like you know we lost him, but you know Ray always talked about that, even in retirement. We would be talking and he would say we’ve got to get some awareness out on this human trafficking thing.
Wendy LyonsHost30:19
And it’s real you know, we know of a person. You and I were talking this morning about bringing him on because he does that.
David LyonsHost30:29
Yeah, he trains that he’s not a human trafficker.
Wendy LyonsHost30:32
No, no, he doesn’t human traffic. Let me rephrase or child traffic. He does not traffic any people. Yeah, he trains on that. Yeah, but you know, when you and I travel, I always notice when in the restrooms and I don’t know if it’s in the men’s, because men’s can be trafficked too Men can be trafficked too there’s always the sign up that says if you’re a victim, call this number Huge.
David LyonsHost30:57
And if you look at the Super Bowl, the Kentucky Derby, the big events, the Indy 500, if you watch and pay attention to most law enforcement, local and federally, they send more people in because those big events draw a lot of attention to adult and child trafficking.
Wendy LyonsHost31:17
Yes.
David LyonsHost31:18
It’s like because of the immense amount of population, the people that may have that interest are probably going to be there and the traffickers come. So because you’re going to have adult and you’re going to have child trafficking and the traffickers come. So because you’re going to result in, and you get a child trafficking.
31:31
Child trafficking is the one is a nightmare of the the boogeyman that comes and takes the child and sells or trades that child, yes, and the child’s left with a life of abuse. How horrible. So in this case, I think that that’ll be something that we’ll watch for. Ok, if they work more on this Bruckner guy, you know he’s probably not going to say anything, but if for some reason they get something out of him or maybe some of that digital evidence or maybe some of that clothing evidence, you know if they keep. The cool thing is, once you start getting those threads, like Rob Wilson said, you can pull the sweater.
32:05
Yes, you just got to get the first one. So it’ll be interesting to see and I’m betting big money that multinationally there’s a lot of effort going into while he’s in prison for that assault on that 72-year-old woman, that there’s a lot of effort going on. It’s kind of exciting to think about what it would be like to work in on that team because the places they’ll probably go. So that’s my number two. My last one is a common thing that we’ve talked about a little bit before, so I want to emphasize it again, and that’s in the beginning. How did the press shape our opinions of the McCanns? And we’ve kind of touched on that a little bit.
Wendy LyonsHost32:44
Yeah, I mean, I guess you’re open to whatever you feel, but I think the way it made an impression on me was that it was the parents were guilty, that’s. I mean, I’m just, I’m telling the truth, that’s just what it was and again, um it’s.
David LyonsHost33:01
I think it’s a very recent conversation. It’s picked up momentum in the past several years and I’m not damning the media. We got to be careful because I’ve got so many friends that have worked in journalism that are absolutely professional and work close to them.
Wendy LyonsHost33:14
But it could just be a matter of perception, of what you perceive it to be. But are they altering it? Are they persuading how you’re thinking?
David LyonsHost33:21
Well, it’s how much they give right and how much they lean in. And then the problem with it is is we saw this in John Monee Ramsey. You take the tabloid industry, which is not exactly known for being the gospel truth. There’s no nobody’s laying their hands on Bibles and tabloid industry, and I’m pretty sure that they’ll tell you their business model is to sell tabloids.
Wendy LyonsHost33:42
Right.
David LyonsHost33:42
So you know they have to approach a certain group of people that will believe anything and pick that up. So ethically right there, I’m not saying it’s right, but you know that they’ll tell you that’s why we’re in the business and they’re going to exploit the shit out of the stuff when they can, but at some point is there an ethical obligation to put a cruise control on it to limit it? Because here’s what goes wrong. You said it best what we get.
34:06
There’s a thing called sampling bias that we can all suffer from, and what that is is we get enough of these representative things in a certain direction and that can turn us to get a strong opinion that way, and if we’re not real careful, we can get confirming evidence bias from that. I think and I don’t know how you fix it, but I think that we’re dying of that right now because you look at some of the sensational cases right here in 2025, the Karen Reed trial over the Boston police officer in the Boston area is people are nearly ready to go to blows over that and that’s not even out of a trial yet, and there’s a lot to that.
34:50
I’ll be honest with you. I think that some of the defense attorneys have started to try that in the public eye and I don’t think that’s ethical, but they are. But back to it again a reminder that we have to keep critical thinking skills. We’re being fed this information Right, and now, with with social media and algorithms, is if you click on it, we know that within fractions of a second, there’s a, a, an algorithm that shifts and says when do you hit this? So it goes out and that’s what you can see on your face.
35:21
Um, I, I think that the sad part is, um, that again, if Jean-Bernie Ramsey’s parents and her brother had nothing to do with her death which again, I have a hard time walking away from that, but we’ll leave that out, we’ll leave that out Then that would be unfair. It’s always 2020. But if this Bruckner guy took their daughter and did something with her and the media shaped a narrative against them, that’s just not right. No, because that’s not right. You know not, any one of us could be on the end of that stick.
Wendy LyonsHost35:58
And it’s you know. And to think about how they’re going about their day-to-day lives is something as simple as going to the supermarket. If people are making allegations or shouting things at them because they think they’re there, we go. I mean, that would be a tough way. I’ll tell you what take that now.
David LyonsHost36:14
Listen that, how far back that was. Take that now with the, the, the just explosion in social media and apps and transmission capability and everything. And let’s just be honest with you, we we’ve got too many people in the world that are just cruel.
36:29
They’re just cruel. They exploit people’s pain. I’m not going to go on and on about it, but it’s a sad place to be in. I guess what I’m getting back to my point on my number three that struck me is one more time, maybe down the road we do some analysis of what the media role plays on this, because if we convict somebody and they’re a horrible monster, I don’t have a problem. Put them on the side of a building, throw things at me, not them, but their picture. But man, until that happens, we’re not based on that.
37:03
We’re not based on informal indicted and we’re careful here. We tell our guests that we’re not naming people. We’ll talk about the periphery, we’ll talk about the environment where, if that’s true, it’ll bubble up if somebody comes forward. But I think the press did shape our opinion and it shaped us on a lot of other things too, A lot of others, so that’s my three.
Wendy LyonsHost37:27
I think your three were wonderful, as always. Thank you. I liked yours as well.
David LyonsHost37:30
I think it’s a neat thing to break these down, and again, I’m learning too.
Wendy LyonsHost37:34
So Well, and also some people may have never heard about this. This was 18 years ago, so some of your younger crime fans might not have heard from something 18 years ago. They might’ve been kids back then.
David LyonsHost37:45
Well, that’s it, and again, we don’t. We’ve never covered it. We really won’t cover them. This is our way to talk about these yeah. Is man, if you’re curious, just Googles it? I mean go go go. Because it’s been covered by other documentaries and other professional podcasts better than I even want to take a run at. And so there’s no reason to reinvent the wheel, but it’s kind of neat to throw a pitch.
Wendy LyonsHost38:05
So I’ve got another one up my sleeve and we’ll talk about that tonight over dinner. But I like doing these as well, because it does, especially if you know if this guy ends up getting convicted of it. You know rightfully so he should be. But I just like to you know like you find cases that have been out there and re-scratch the surface.
David LyonsHost38:27
Yeah, exactly, pick them apart and there’s still a hunt for justice for her. So again, if you, if you’re watching and listening to this, just jump into the comment section and let us know what you think, cause I’m an open book on it. And again, you know, this is it. If we’re off base, tell us we’re off base, I’d like to hear it. It. And if you’ve got other information that sways that information, do that, and let’s all hope that one day, that this little girl and her family does get justice and that that if it comes the right way. So until the next time. That’s my three things and wendy’s and my three things.
Wendy LyonsHost38:58
And again, these are only our opinions. Everyone else may have different opinions. It’s just my own opinion share them good deal, thank you.
David LyonsHost39:03
Thank you, have a good night. Their own opinion, share them.
Wendy LyonsHost39:04
Good deal, thank you.
David LyonsHost39:05
Thank you, have a good night. The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims, so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicePodcastcom, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts. No-transcript.
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