The Murder of Michael Turpin | Show Notes

In February 1986, a slightly less-than-concerned wife called the Lexington Police in Lexington Kentucky, to report her 22-year-old husband, Michael Turpin, missing.

Officers responded to the apartment that the new couple shared, and found disturbing evidence, that led them to ask for the Homicide Unit to assist.

Then Homicide Unit Sergeant Fran Root responded.  His experiences at the scene triggered his intuition, and he and the investigators began an investigation that uncovered the results of a perfect storm of evil, formed when three awfully bad people conspire to submit to greed.

Join Fran Root and Ray “The DA” Larson for two episodes that deep dive into this case, deeper than the national TV shows and documentaries that have covered this over the years.

Transcripts

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Part 1 of 2:

David (00:00):

Warning the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury, listener discretion is advised

Wendy (00:08):

Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast.

David (00:42):

Okay Wendy, we’ve got a fantastic case for the listeners this time that they’re going to enjoy. And it’s so full of detail that it’s going to take two episodes to really cover this comfortably and it’ll release on our every other Tuesday schedule that we use, which is a reminder that when people go to their podcast player and their platform, not only subscribe to us, but check that little doohickey button that says auto download, so that you know that when you get up on Tuesday morning, this episode, and the one that follows will be there for you. Go ahead and tell the listeners what this is about.

Wendy (01:19):

This case is just crazy. I will tell you it has been captivating ever since I learned about it. It’s the 1986 murder of a 22-year-old young man by the name of Michael Turpin. It occurred in Lexington, Kentucky. Now this case, it originally was reported as a missing person case and detective Fran Root received that call. And Fran walks us through detail by detail of the case up until it gets prosecuted by Ray “The DA” Larson. It’s about greed and what happens when three evil people collide to create this perfect storm.

David (02:00):

Yeah, that collision for that perfect storm is what got me about it too, is that you usually see the activity like with one person, maybe a couple people. But the listeners are going to see what it’s like when somehow you get three people together that have the same mindset and carry out a very evil act. And the details are important because this case, like a lot of them we do was covered nationally. For example, Oxygen Network did a really good job with it, but here’s the difference. We have more time, and we have Fran’s undivided attention, and the details he’s going to offer are unique to what you see on television.

Wendy (02:35):

Yeah. The details with Fran, he walks you through, literally from the moment he got that call, step by step. And you truly feel like you are there envisioning and you can see everything Fran’s describing. So it is really a sad case, but just bizarre on all areas. So with that being said, let’s dig right in and learn a little bit about this case involving Mr. Michael Turpin.

Wendy (03:08):

Hey there, Fran, how are you doing today?

Fran Root (03:10):

I’m doing fine. Thank you.

Wendy (03:11):

Joining Fran and me is a retired district attorney Ray Larson, affectionately known as Ray the DA. Ray, how are you over there?

Ray Larson (03:18):

I’m doing well Wendy.

Wendy (03:20):

We are also joined by former homicide investigator and retired police commander, my husband, David Lyons. David, how are you over there?

David (03:30):

I’m doing great. Can’t wait to hear this story in detail.

Wendy (03:32):

Well, with that being said, let’s get started. Fran, won’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Fran Root (03:40):

Well, I was one of these guys that graduated from high school without a clue as to what I wanted to do. I’m working in the family grocery store over in Chevy Chase and we get robbed. And so during the course of that investigation, I got to meet detectives with the Lexington Police Department, and they even actually took me with them a couple times to go down to headquarters and do things. It was just a light bulb exploding in my head that I can do this. I want to do this. You got to be 21 to do this, and of course I’d just come out of high school. So I got my butt back into school.

Fran Root (04:21):

Got hired as soon as I turned 21 and went into the police academy at Lexington. I didn’t spend much time on the street as I got drafted into the detective bureau, worked general assignment, which included homicides back then, and then went into special investigations, which also included homicides back then. So you got a little taste of everything. Then by the time I got about eight years down as a detective, I went back out to patrol for a few years. And finally I made Sergeant and immediately came back into the detective bureau and took over the robbery homicide squad.

Ray Larson (05:02):

Fran, so you went from being a detective out to patrol. It means you’re wearing a uniform and on the street. What do you learn on patrol as opposed as a detective in a police agency?

Fran Root (05:17):

Well, I ended up doing a lot of teaching when I was out on patrol. People would call me all the time asking advice, help me do a search warrant or those kind of things. So I really enjoyed that part. Now the bad part was, is I had never worked under the modern investigation of car accidents. And so they gave me every car wreck the first night I was out. And finally I had to call the dispatcher and tell them, okay, cut off the car accidents. I know how to work them now.

Wendy (05:49):

So you go through, you do time on the street and you serve your time as a detective. And then I’m guessing that’s what you were doing when this missing person case came to be.

Fran Root (06:00):

Yes.

Wendy (06:00):

Did you get that call yourself?

Fran Root (06:02):

Yes. I was called in that morning on February 3rd, early 1985, which is the end of 1985 is when I went into robbery homicide as their squad Sergeant. And it had five homicides that year, 1986, where you went into 26 homicides for the year. So before that we had only averaged around 17 or so. Even less than that, most of the time. So it was a sink or swim year. In other words. And this was early in the year being in February back

David (06:43):

During that timeframe, what do you think that increase in homicides was attributed to in Lexington?

Fran Root (06:49):

I don’t know that you can attribute it. I, I remember later on in 1986, a reporter asked me how my, how my ho prevention program was working. And I just had to laugh and said we have no homicide prevention program. Although on retrospect, I think we did to a great extent, just dealing with domestic violence situations. How many homicides are domestic and, when you enforce the laws right off the bat, then perhaps you, it didn’t get carried away to the homicide stage.

Ray Larson (07:23):

One of the interesting things about 1986 was with the number 26 homicides. There was one evening that five homicides occurred and that’s a case that we will hopefully deal with at some point. And Fran was in charge of the investigation of that as well. So that elevated the numbers pretty quickly.

Fran Root (07:46):

Yes.

Wendy (07:47):

So at this, you’re just sitting at your desk, how’s it? Where you just get a call?

Fran Root (07:51):

No, I’m still at home at this point and they call me at home. I think we normally work somewhere before or nine o’clock and this was probably around seven that I get called.

Wendy (08:04):

Just said we’ve got a missing person and-

Fran Root (08:06):

Right.

Wendy (08:07):

What do you usually do then? Just start looking, or?

Fran Root (08:10):

Oh yeah. I go and respond to the scene. It’s really up to the patrol officer. You know, he’s, he’s dispatched on a routine call to take a missing person report. Well, officer Bird arrives at that scene and he takes a look around and there’s a considerable amount of blood in the entryway to the apartment. So he uses his discretion at that time and asks headquarters to call out robbery homicide.

David (08:37):

Specifically, what day did this occur in around what time do you think that call?

Fran Root (08:41):

This is a Monday morning, right? Beginning of the work week.

David (08:44):

And what day of the year was it? Just to make sure we’re clear on that.

Fran Root (08:47):

Oh, it was February 3rd, 1986. Monday.

Wendy (08:52):

So you get up and you go over to the apartment, and just going to start looking for this, Mr. Turpin.

Fran Root (09:01):

I confirm that there’s enough to the scene to call in the identification detectives to start processing it.

Ray Larson (09:08):

Now, what does that mean, Fran?

Fran Root (09:11):

Well, that means that we are lucky enough to have specialized people that are highly trained on how to gather evidence and document evidence, and document a crime scene. And so you call them as just as quick as you know that you need them because really you don’t want to be messing around the crime scene a before they get there and they can get it started.

Wendy (09:35):

So you look around and you see this blood and what happens next?

Fran Root (09:40):

Well, pretty much next is after the crime scene investigators get there, that I had my first opportunity to talk the victim’s wife. She was next door getting cleaned up at the apartment. And, and so I was introduced to Elizabeth Turpin at that time.

Wendy (10:01):

So I’m guessing like most wives, she was just frantic, not knowing where her husband was and where this blood was from. And did she not even, was she not there to know that there was blood or that he was missing?

Fran Root (10:13):

Well, that’s, that’s the thing with her, is that she gave me a whole lot of reason right off the bat to be suspicious of her. She had not spent the night there. She had spent the night out carousing with friends. And told me just to diatribe of reasons why she didn’t come back home. Said that it was raining in her car fish tails. And she had a wheel out of balance and she doesn’t see well in the rain. Just all kinds of things like that, just about why she didn’t come home.

Fran Root (10:48):

Then it’s later on that I get a little bit more that raises my suspicions up again. So I’m dealing with her. Then I also to deal with the other people at the scene while the detectives are working it and doing the neighborhood canvas. That type of thing. And apparently Elizabeth had called both her mother and father-in-laws over to the scene and telling them about Mike being missing. And there’s blood there.

Ray Larson (11:17):

Your conversation now talks to instincts that you develop as a detective or a police officer. And you said that you had suspicions. Why did you have suspicions right away?

Fran Root (11:32):

Well, we’re pretty well trained in Lexington, and I’d already had quite a bit of training and statement analysis and interviewing interrogation. And you know that when someone is giving you too much information in a varied way, and they’re just regurgitating it. You’re not getting it out of them, you’re just getting this long explanation. That’s going to raise your hackle some, and you’re going to pay more attention.

Ray Larson (12:01):

What was Elizabeth’s demeanor during this period of time?

Fran Root (12:05):

Well… And Wendy, you mentioned something about her being distraught. She wasn’t. She was… That in itself didn’t alarm me only because I have seen people in shock, and they can go pretty quiet and expressionless and everything. But, but no, she was matter of fact. Later on, we kind of figured that she was kind of basking in it. I’m going to call mom, I’m going to call dad and I’m going to call Mike’s friends.

Wendy (12:41):

She’s just at the center of attention, trying to let everybody know first that she’s reaching out. So she’s in control here.

Fran Root (12:49):

That was the early onset of what we determined. And then of course they, as this case went on and even going to trial, she proved that more and more.

Wendy (13:00):

You’re just interviewing with her, and she’s going on and on about all her myriad of reasons why she couldn’t come home. And I guess that coupled with her not being distraught, do you, at that point, continue to question her, or did she even have an idea of where maybe he could have been, or how this blood got there?

Fran Root (13:23):

Well, generally some of the first things that you do is, is you explain that you’re going to need a formal interview with her. And in any witness that has something to lend to the case. And so we were just really killing time until I got a chance to break away from the scene and transport her down to the office to have her give a formal statement.

Ray Larson (13:45):

Why do you go to the office to interview people like that? Because that’s kind of a typical thing. I want you to go downtown with us and give a statement, is what-

Fran Root (13:54):

Yes. You’re avoiding distractions. That way is probably the key. You’re also much more in control when you’re in your own environment. You’re not going to have interruptions from the father showing up, and mother showing up And other distractions going on. There’s a lot of things going on, including a canine search at that scene to see if we could get a track. Locate any evidence. So it’s a busy scene of up to 20 officers at a time.

Ray Larson (14:29):

You said that she had called Michael’s mother and father.

Fran Root (14:36):

Yes.

Ray Larson (14:37):

Did, did they come to the scene as well?

Fran Root (14:39):

Yes, they did.

Ray Larson (14:41):

Tell me how that played out.

Fran Root (14:45):

Well, I had to meet them down- This was a second floor apartment, so I go down to the parking lot and meet them. One of the perimeter officers that had security on the scene would call me and tell me that, “Hey, I’ve got a fellow saying that he’s Mike Turpin’s father here. You want to come down and talk to him?” And of course I do. And of course we can’t let them anywhere near the crime scene. And you just trying to tell them… And I was trying my best to be optimistic. There was a good amount of blood and certainly some sign of a struggle there in the doorway. But it wasn’t enough that just put me over, completely over the edge on saying, “I’ve got a homicide here.” But it did put me over enough to say, “I going to treat this like a homicide until we figure it out.”

Fran Root (15:42):

And so I find myself having to talk to Maggie and Don and-

Ray Larson (15:48):

That’s the mother and father?

Fran Root (15:49):

Yes. Maggie struck me just right off the bat and, and she’s pretty no nonsense kind of woman. And I found myself kind of tap dancing around because I want to assure her that we’re doing as much as we can to locate her son without scaring the devil out of her that he’s dead, or been kidnapped, or any number of other things. And so I was trying to downplay it. And later on, I heard Maggie make a statement to one of the people that she felt like I was playing tag with her. And I really-

Ray Larson (16:31):

And you were.

Ray Larson (16:33):

Yes. I guess I was, but I felt bad that she read that that way. And of course I ran into the same problem with the dad. I’ll get into that here in a minute.

Ray Larson (16:44):

Okay.

Wendy (16:45):

So do you just tell the parents, “Once we find out something, we’ll let you know.” And then you just-

Fran Root (16:52):

Oh yeah. You get-

Wendy (16:52):

Proceed on to go interview this spouse,

Fran Root (16:56):

You get every contact bit of information that you can and assure them that you’ll be back with them, certainly before the day’s over. And let them know where you’re at on the investigation.

Wendy (17:08):

So you take the Elizabeth ,wife, and you say, “Well, let’s go down and talk about it.” Did you transport her? Did she just meet you there?

Fran Root (17:17):

Yeah, she rode in, in my detective cruiser.

Wendy (17:20):

So did she seem kind of on edge or fidgety or-

Fran Root (17:26):

Not at all?

Wendy (17:27):

Just laid back?

Fran Root (17:27):

Not at all. She was very matter of factly, and that’s when she got into trying to give me some background on Mike Turpin, her husband, that I’ve already learned was the president of the band fraternity at UK. Graduated with honors. Was an accountant, regularly employed. Worked his way through school. Just all American kind of boy, is the picture I had at this point. But here, I’ve got this 19 year old spouse, is. Telling me on the way down to headquarters, that he was a drug dealer that he was involved with, organized crime. Organized crimes syndicate called “The Family”. And that his street name was Shark. And he was dealing out the back door of McDonald’s. And just once again, it was far too much information. And remember, I had just come off a six year stint in narcotics, which was special investigations, and I’d never heard of no Family. And really didn’t know much about any kind of organized crime in Lexington. Much less somebody’s going to use 16 year olds to sell drugs for them.

Wendy (18:43):

So you’re thinking, “wow, I’ve got two very different pictures of this gentleman. Wife’s telling me one thing. Kind of learned something else. So I guess you just are listening to it all and waiting to see how this plays out. And who’s telling the truth about Mr. Turpin,

Fran Root (19:00):

Right. And like I say, my hackles were raised and I was suspicious, but the last thing you want to do when you’re investigating a crime like this, is jump to conclusions. And you don’t want to narrow the focus of your investigation. “Okay. We know she’s involved, even though we don’t have a clue how she’s involved, but we know she’s involved and we’re just going to work on her.” Whether you’re going to miss so many other things, including things that you’ll need for trial later on, like investigating exculpatory evidence and leads.

David (19:38):

What’s exculpatory mean, for the audience?

Fran Root (19:40):

Exculpatory is anything that would possibly lead you to believe that the defendant is not guilty.

Ray Larson (19:47):

So you interviewed the wife. And did you have an opportunity to find… You said she didn’t spend the night with her husband. Did you have an opportunity to find out where she might have been the night before?

Fran Root (20:00):

Yes. We did find out who she was with the night before. She was with some people from work where she worked as a car salesman. That she had been to a place called The Circus, Sunday night earlier. And there was a big performance. It was a regular thing that they did there.

Ray Larson (20:18):

What kind of a place is the Circus?

Fran Root (20:21):

It, it kind of an after hours club. They tried to cater to everyone including underage, so they don’t serve alcohol there. But they’re really fast and loose about letting you go out to the car, or go in the bathroom for that matter, and do whatever you want to do to get high. But this particular night was a drag show night. It was made up to be a big deal and drew a very large-

Ray Larson (20:51):

How did she get to that?

Fran Root (20:55):

Well, at that time, she was still driving her car, which was an older model, 280 Z Nissan. But then her friend from work and the other friend, they would end up in another car off and on through the night.

Ray Larson (21:12):

What was the draw for her to go to this drag show?

Fran Root (21:18):

Well, her friend from work, Karen, was actually going to be performing. She would be in drag attempting to look like Corey Hart, who was a popular singer back-

Ray Larson (21:31):

Male singer.

Fran Root (21:32):

Yes, male singer. And so she did one of his songs in the performance.

Ray Larson (21:38):

Dressed as Corey Hart?

Fran Root (21:40):

Yes.

Ray Larson (21:41):

And was there any relationship between those two? Do you know?

Fran Root (21:45):

I think there was one that wanted to be. And of course what we found out as the investigation went on, it was probably pretty one sided. That Karen certainly attracts attention.

Ray Larson (21:59):

You think that was a one way relationship, really.

Fran Root (22:02):

Really.

Ray Larson (22:03):

Well. What was Elizabeth Turpin’s attraction to Karen?

Fran Root (22:09):

Well, Elizabeth… First of all, she got her drugs from Karen. That was probably what got the whole thing started. But then, Elizabeth was anything but stupid, and she saw the attraction. And her modus operandi, so to speak, is that she would use people. Just manipulate them to what she wanted to see happen.

Ray Larson (22:34):

So Karen was, was basically her drug supplier. And she continued to see her on a platonic relationship.

Fran Root (22:46):

As far as I know.

Ray Larson (22:48):

Yeah, I see. So that’s where she was that night.

Wendy (22:53):

Well, now you mentioned a third person. Who’s the third person that went with them to that club.

Fran Root (22:58):

Third person was Keith Bouchard. He was a handyman detailer at the car dealership.

Wendy (23:07):

So just three friends that worked together. Going out under the pretenses of just having a good night out and watching Karen do her show. And Karen is hopeful that Elizabeth will be as interested as she is.

Fran Root (23:22):

Yes.

Wendy (23:23):

So at this point, when you have Elizabeth downtown, has Karen and Keith even been mentioned?

Fran Root (23:31):

Eventually in the statement. Detective Maria Neal took her formal statement there at headquarters. And while she was still there, Karen actually showed up at the detective bureau. She wasn’t called or anything, but she showed up concerned about where Elizabeth was and what she was doing.

Ray Larson (23:51):

So did Maria interview her

Fran Root (23:54):

Karen? No.

Ray Larson (23:55):

Okay. Was Karen eventually interviewed?

Fran Root (23:58):

Yes. She was just as to their whereabouts that night before. And in at different times about different topics as we got the leads.

Ray Larson (24:09):

Was there anything that happened during that evening at the Circus that caused any kind of problem, as it relates to Michael Turpin?

Fran Root (24:20):

Yes. Mike adamantly did not want Elizabeth going out with her friends again, especially on a work night. And so there was an argument before they even left. Elizabeth went out to the parking lot and came back in acting very distraught, telling Karen and Keith that damn husband of hers, Mike, had showed up. And just messing with her and moved her car around. That’s something that we suspected, even at the end of the investigation, that did not happen, but was just one of those things that Elizabeth was telling Karen and Keith to get them on her side. She’d talk about Mike abusing her, mentally and-

Wendy (25:08):

And I’m sure if Karen has a romantic interest in Elizabeth, she’s probably very open to hearing whatever Elizabeth is going to tell her negative about her husband. Did Michael know that Karen had a romantic interest in his wife?

Fran Root (25:25):

I don’t know if he perceived that or not. I think they were over at the apartment often enough with Mike that certainly if he was paying attention, probably would’ve picked up on it. But sadly, we didn’t get to talk to Mike.

Ray Larson (25:41):

Was there any conversation at the Circus, that you discovered through your investigation, between Elizabeth and Karen and Keith that would’ve caused Karen and Keith to want to protect Elizabeth, or to do anything to make sure that Michael didn’t do anything to her?

Fran Root (26:06):

Oh yeah. They had been… Elizabeth had been talking for some, several days now about how unhappy she was with Mike. And I think she dropped a few times the fact that he had life insurance policy on him. And she would say things like, “I sure wish I could just hang out with you guys all the time.” Just different things like that. And then she talked excessively about how abusive Mike was, and how basically a bad person he was.

Ray Larson (26:38):

Was she afraid to go home that night from the Circus?

Fran Root (26:41):

I don’t know if she told them that or not. That did not come up.

Ray Larson (26:45):

So when they left the Circus that night, what did your investigation reveal?

Fran Root (26:53):

Well, in, in order to kind of keep this thing cohesive, I’ve got to jump around a little bit. But I think by the second day of the investigation, Sergeant Dan Gibbons gets a call from a person that identifies a drug dealer that they had cruised by his house that night, that Sunday night. They apparently had left the Circus for a while and then went back, and they were asking… Well, I think they bought some drugs. He was Karen’s drug connection. But they asked him for a gun. He told them he didn’t have one. So they did not get a gun.

Wendy (27:31):

So you interview Karen. I’m sorry you interview Elizabeth. At this point, do you just let her go? Were you just hearing her story? And you’re still at a loss thinking, “Well, where’s this gentleman at?”

Fran Root (27:43):

Well, it’s a fine line that you, even though we’re suspicious of her, we don’t want her to, what they say in the law business, lawyer up on us. So you try to keep things on a low key, so you can keep them talking. And she was a talker. So we wanted her to talk.

Wendy (28:06):

So when you ended the investigation that evening, or the interview with her, did you just leave it as we’ll keep looking, or at this point at the end of that, were you certainly now thinking there’s a lot more to this story?

Fran Root (28:20):

Well, as far as she’s concerned, we’re very concerned about Mike’s well being, and we’re going to do everything we can to find him and help him. So you need to stay in touch with us. If we don’t call you, you call us and let us know where you’re going to be. Because we wouldn’t let her go back to her apartment. We did let her go get a couple things out of the apartment under supervision. But-

Wendy (28:46):

So then you send her on her way and I guess what happens next in the investigation? Are you all just hoping he either turns up or I mean, do you just wait?

Fran Root (28:57):

We’re getting background information through all of this. We’re we’re talking to people like Karen Brown. And we didn’t talk to Keith for a while. We just didn’t manage to run across him. So the main people we were talking to were people like all Mike’s friends from college, band guys. Well, both male and female friends from that age. And we’re getting this perfect picture of Mike Turpin as the boy next door. No suspicion of drugs. I think every one of the women in his group probably would’ve loved to have dated him, except he was just kind of backwards. You had to just about hit him over the head to get him to pay attention to you. And that’s exactly what Elizabeth did. As we found out later on.

Ray Larson (29:50):

How did they meet?

Fran Root (29:51):

They met from band. Mike was a senior and the president of the band fraternity. And Elizabeth come in as a young, and she wanted to be in the band. And so she was trying out for a flag girl position. She immediately approached Mike and started flirting with him. And Mike was not used to that. She got his attention very quickly.

Ray Larson (30:16):

Matter of fact, he fell for her.

Fran Root (30:18):

Yes.

Ray Larson (30:19):

Pretty hard right away.

Fran Root (30:20):

Oh yeah.

Ray Larson (30:21):

So after everybody leaves the police department that day, you continue to interview. So what’s the next development in this case?

Fran Root (30:34):

And of course the last thing I do on those days of investigation is go by and see the parents, or whoever our loved one contact is. And that was another one where I didn’t hit it off too well with mom and dad. I go to Don Turpin’s house. And by now, Elizabeth’s told us all these stories, and all she added too, that Mike’s little brother also helped him deal drugs.

Fran Root (30:59):

And so I find myself in Don Turpin’s family room, Vice President of a large bank here in town. And I find myself asking him about his sons dealing drugs. Well, I’d say I came very close to getting punched, but I was simply following up on leads I had to do. I probably could’ve explained myself a little bit more. Then again, you don’t want to give out too much information either.

Ray Larson (31:27):

So what’s, what’s the conversation with Maggie and Don?

Fran Root (31:31):

Well, just to let them know where we’re at. That we’re still looking for Mike. That we’re still treating it as a homicide investigation. And quite frankly, we’re kind of out of things that we could do for that day. It was about 11:30, midnight.

Ray Larson (31:47):

How many days into the investigation were you at this point?

Fran Root (31:50):

That’s the first day.

Ray Larson (31:52):

So you did a lot on that first day?

Fran Root (31:53):

Yeah, that was a 12 hour or so day maybe.

Ray Larson (31:56):

Okay. Next.

Wendy (31:57):

So you go home.

Fran Root (31:58):

Next.

Wendy (31:59):

You wake up tomorrow.

Fran Root (32:00):

Go home. Try to get some sleep. We go into work. We’ve already got people lined up to come in and interview. I personally had a friend of Mike’s from the band era coming in to see me. And I’m not long into that interview before a detective interrupts the interview and gets me out of the interview room, and tells me that they found a body out at Lakeside Golf Course.

Wendy (32:29):

Hey, you know there’s more to the story. So go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.

David (32:37):

The murder police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The murder police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more, and give us a five star review on Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. And please, tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.

Part 2 of 2:

David (00:00):

Warning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury. Listener discretion is advised.

Wendy (00:08):

Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast.

David (00:44):

Okay, Wendy, we have finished episode one of the murder of Michael Turpin in Lexington, Kentucky. And now we’re about to introduce the listeners to episode two. Thinking back on episode one, were there things that stood out for you that got your attention?

Wendy (00:59):

Absolutely. It details the power of observation and experience and intuition that a good detective uses, and Fran Root was no exception in this. His intuition was just on point the whole time.

David (01:13):

Exactly. And what was interesting when you talk about what a good detective does is that even though he felt strongly about where this might go and probably would go, he was clear to point out too, that he didn’t close his mind to other things in this case that were possibilities, which is critical. And I thought that was interesting to hear and I think the listeners probably caught that too.

Wendy (01:33):

You’re right. Fran absolutely was intuitive on this. And it’s crazy because it’s one of those things that seemed like everyone, including Michael’s parents and friends could feel something was wrong and Fran was no exception to that as well.

David (01:50):

It just looked like Michael was probably blinded by love, just so enthralled with her.

Wendy (01:55):

He was. I think she was his first real girlfriend and Elizabeth certainly captivated him. And against his mother’s wishes, he just kept trying and trying to make things work with Elizabeth. And ultimately, as we heard prior, he married her. Now when episode one ended, Fran was interrupted while conducting an interview at the police headquarters and he was told that a body had just been located at a golf course in Lexington.

David (02:21):

So it looks like it’s going to move from a missing person case to a homicide.

Wendy (02:26):

Well, it certainly appears that way. So let’s tune in, check out episode two and see if our intuitions are correct as well.

Fran Root (02:35):

We go into work. We’ve already got people lined up to come in and interview. I personally had a friend of Mike’s from the band era coming in to see me. And I’m not long into that interview before a detective interrupts the interview and gets me out of the interview room and tells me that they found a body out at Lakeside Golf Course.

Ray Larson (03:02):

Now who did they found and where did they find it?

Fran Root (03:05):

It was in what I call a spillway. It’s kind of an overflow pond. This golf course sides up to one of Lexington’s large reservoirs. And that’s why it’s called Lakeside.

David (03:19):

How close was that to the apartment that he lived at?

Fran Root (03:24):

It was a good ways. I mean, a couple miles, maybe three.

Wendy (03:29):

So how did someone stumble upon him in that pond?

Fran Root (03:32):

It was the workers when they came in that morning, bright and early and they could see something that was out of place floating and they realized pretty quickly that it was a body.

Wendy (03:44):

So this was the next day after, so this quickly transpired. So do you go out to that? Do you end your interview with this person? And you just say, we’ve got to continue?

Fran Root (03:54):

Yeah. I had to tell her that we’d get back to her to, go on and just be somewhere we can find you. The entire squad responded out to the golf course, as well as the identification people, the crime scene investigation.

Ray Larson (04:11):

Now, this was February the fourth.

Fran Root (04:13):

Yes.

Ray Larson (04:14):

And it was in the morning. And what was the temperature? What was the weather conditions?

Fran Root (04:19):

It’s February. So it’s in the forties, it’s really a mild, I would call it, wet. I think it’d been raining a little bit or misting at least.

Ray Larson (04:32):

So you went out there and what did you discover?

Fran Root (04:36):

Well, they had just recovered Mike’s body. They had called the fire department and they came him out with a boat and basically just pulled him to the shore there. Mike was described. Well, we were told that his green bathrobe was missing from the house and we could tell this person’s in a green bathrobe. We see a wedding ring on his hands and rigor mortis is set in the body and liver mortis as well.

David (05:08):

Just real quickly too, for the audience, rigor mortis, liver mortis, just in simple terms, what are those things and how are they different?

Fran Root (05:15):

Rigor mortis is where the joints of the body will seize up for a certain time period after the body is dead. And it varies greatly on when exactly that is, the temperature in water is different and everything else. Now, liver mortis is where the blood pools in the body. And you can tell if the body was in one place for a while, you’re going have this purple blue tint on the sides of the body that were lowest to the ground and be able to see evidence of that.

Ray Larson (05:54):

So the body was discovered and at what point do you notify the family?

Fran Root (05:59):

That was a real dilemma, because we have to keep the scene and I’ve got to at least get a good idea what the scene has to tell me. But the news trucks are everywhere and I’m going, oh Lord, they are going to find out on the news. So this was before cell phones, so we didn’t have any way to call them from the scene. And so I raced on to Don’s house and Maggie was already there too. And they had seen it on the news, so they were pretty shaken. And of course I had to confirm for that it was in fact Mike’s body.

Ray Larson (06:35):

From a victim’s perspective, I’ve learned and over the years and you and David have learned over the years, that death notification is a big deal to crime victims. And one of the things Don continues to regret is that he learned of his death on the news. And it’s interesting that you raised the issue of no cell phones at that time. Isn’t it amazing what cell phones have done for things like that?

Fran Root (07:12):

Well, sure.

Wendy (07:13):

Well, so when you, I have to backtrack a little, when you got there and they had pulled him to the shore, was there any evidence of that blood you found in his hallway or was there any trauma or injury on him?

Fran Root (07:28):

Oh yes. Quite a bit. We counted up to 19 stab wounds up high on his chest and into his neck.

Wendy (07:38):

Wow. So you all get him out and I guess what happens at that point, is he transported to-

Fran Root (07:45):

You’re calling the coroner to come out to the scene. You don’t do anything with the body until he arrives.

Ray Larson (07:51):

What’s the coroner?

Fran Root (07:52):

The coroner’s the chief law enforcement officer of the county. So he’s got authority over everyone, including the sheriff and police chief.

Ray Larson (08:01):

At a death scene?

Fran Root (08:02):

And at a death scene, he is the authority. Yes. And so you do everything in concert with the coroner’s office.

Ray Larson (08:09):

And what did he do in this case?

Fran Root (08:10):

Well, he obviously made the death declaration and had Mike’s body transported over to the University of Kentucky Medical Center where at that time we were doing autopsies. Dr. John Hunsaker was the associate chief medical examiner at that time, and he mainly operated out of University of Kentucky where the other associate chief operated out of Louisville.

Ray Larson (08:38):

Tell me what the purpose of the coroner is. Excuse me, the medical examiner.

Fran Root (08:43):

Oh, the medical examiner now is a real doctor, which the coroner could be and has been off and on in different places, but they certainly don’t have to be. And in this case, Coroner Hager was a mortician, a funeral director, very well known around the county at that time.

David (09:04):

Then how do they get to be a coroner? What’s the process? How do they-

Fran Root (09:07):

Oh, it’s an election. Yes, it’s purely a running for public office and there’s no built in qualifications for it. You just run against whoever else and if you get enough votes, you’re the coroner.

Ray Larson (09:22):

So what did Hunsaker come up with?

Fran Root (09:25):

Well, he came up with confirming once again that Mike did have multiple stab wounds. He gave us a time of death probably somewhere over the 24 hours. And that again, once you start getting down to that long and especially floating in water, it’s a guess, but an educated one.

Ray Larson (09:49):

What was the cause of death?

Fran Root (09:50):

Exsanguination. In other words, he bled to death.

Ray Larson (09:53):

From the 19th stab wounds.

Fran Root (09:55):

19 stab wounds. The biggest thing that Dr. John identified to us is that almost all of the stab wounds were very shallow, which was remarkable. They were only an inch, two inches deep, but of course, that many wounds and they had hit enough blood vessels to cause him to lose blood over time and die.

Ray Larson (10:23):

That information, I guess, was delivered to the family.

Fran Root (10:27):

Yes.

Ray Larson (10:28):

And so what happens next in your investigation, because it’s gone now from missing persons to a homicide investigation.

Fran Root (10:36):

Well, it really doesn’t change much because like I say, we were already dealing with it as a homicide, so there wasn’t any switching gears or anything. We continued to interview people. We did a neighborhood investigation around a golf course on the chance that maybe someone saw a car pulling in or something to that effect. And really just more or less developing background. We’re learning little bits here and there. We learn about a binge that Elizabeth went on with two of the other car salesmen. I think she had sold her first car and of course that’s a good excuse to party. And so she went on all-nighter with these two male car salesman and apparently had sex with both of them, so we interviewed them and the people at the dealership and actually saw Karen and Keith there at work.

Ray Larson (11:32):

Let’s identify what, you’ve said that Elizabeth was a salesperson.

Fran Root (11:39):

Yes.

Ray Larson (11:40):

And Karen worked there too?

Fran Root (11:41):

Yes. Karen.

Ray Larson (11:42):

And what did Karen do?

Fran Root (11:44):

She was a detailer.

Ray Larson (11:46):

And Keith?

Fran Root (11:48):

He also did some detailing on cleaning the new cars up, but he was also kind of a handyman. Keith had just come out of the Army, young guy, petite, but in good shape.

Wendy (12:01):

So at this point, you now have identified Michael. Who reaches out to the grieving widow?

Fran Root (12:09):

Well-

Wendy (12:10):

And was she grieving?

Fran Root (12:12):

She was actually still at the parent’s house, and I got the feeling that they didn’t want her there. And found out later on that that was definitely what they didn’t want, was her hanging around. Maggie just right off the bat, and Don too, I think, but Maggie is a very determined woman and she saw nothing good coming out of Elizabeth. Don would tell us later on how much Mike had changed since Elizabeth had come into his life. Like I say, Mike Turpin was pictured as this perfect guy next door, collegiate, clean cut, very well spoken, very mild, meek and all of us. And he would show up at every family dinner, not just special occasions to all of a sudden, that stuff started stopping. Lame excuses were given, and I think a couple times Mike actually did break down when talking with his dad about why he wasn’t coming to dinner. And Don could tell that he wasn’t happy.

Ray Larson (13:23):

During that period of time, Maggie, Michael’s mom, did she just really have deep seated fears of Michael ultimately marrying Elizabeth?

Fran Root (13:41):

Yes, she did.

Ray Larson (13:44):

But he did. And so as Wendy would say, where do we go from here?

Fran Root (13:53):

Well, we do go from there. We had just finished another 12 hour day on Thursday. So now we’re the fourth day into the investigation. I think I got home right at midnight. Then I got called back out at about 1:30 that morning. Two witnesses that we had already interviewed had walked into the detective bureau and told the night shift detectives that they had some things to share with us. And so by the time we got there, they informed us and this woman and young man were basically roommates of Karen’s. And Keith was crashing there at the time, so both of them were at this apartment, Old Farm Apartments, and they were telling us about two things, well, three things that the major things was looking out their window and Karen and Keith out at Karen’s car, which was an old Chevette with ammonia and several other cleaners scrubbing at the interior of the car.

Fran Root (15:02):

Then they told us about a call from Keith to Doug, which is one of these witnesses that walked in one afternoon. And it was the afternoon that Mike’s body was found that he called them and he was very excited and animated on the phone and says, Keith, you got to get my shoes. You got to get my shoes and throw them out. Go get rid of them. Karen had picked up on this excited conversation over the phone and she came up and grabbed the phone away from Doug and told Keith, you need to calm down. You don’t be doing that. So that certainly-

Ray Larson (15:41):

That was suspicious.

Fran Root (15:43):

Got our attention. Yes.

Ray Larson (15:44):

Okay. Did you have an opportunity to look at that vehicle?

Fran Root (15:51):

Yes, we did. You could see it just walking by that there was a problem. And another thing that Dee and Doug told us, they had ridden in that car. And afterwards, that it had just a very strong musky odor to it that wasn’t there before, so that added also to our suspicions. We spent Friday trying to confirm as much as we could, figuring out where the residences were for everybody involved and writing search warrants, affidavits for search warrants. You try to plan these things ahead and it did take us a long time on Friday. Otherwise, we’d have gone on Friday evening for that matter, but it was so late by the time we got everything lined up and had our plan on what to do, then we just decided to come in bright and early crack of dawn kind of thing on Saturday. And we had three search warrants. One for the car, one for the Old Farm Apartment, and one to go back to Mike and Elizabeth’s apartment. It had been in our custody the whole time, but we had, we were okay searching it without a warrant leading up to this.

Fran Root (17:09):

But then once we developed probable cause and we felt like we needed to, it’s always better to do the warrant. We might have been okay without it, but we immediately took Keith and Karen into custody. Elizabeth was out of town. We knew that she was. Well, her lawyer had called us and told us that she was going to Louisville to visit with her family over the weekend and gave us an address and phone number and everything about where she would be. So we get Karen and Keith down to the headquarters, into separate interrogation rooms and start seeing what they had to say. Keith lawyered up pretty quickly. And so when he did, we had no choice but to discontinue the interview with him. We continued on with Karen.

Fran Root (18:04):

Karen gave us a statement. She talked about Elizabeth talking her and Keith into doing it, told us about going by and trying to get the gun, told us about her and Keith. While Karen was staying at her apartment, while Elizabeth was staying at Karen’s apartment and going up to Mike’s door, ringing the doorbell. Mike’s in his bathrobe, comes to the door and Keith immediately sets upon him. And Keith had taken paring knives, we later found out, and he got fingerless weightlifting gloves, and he would insert the paring knives out through the finger slot. And so there was only an inch or two of knife blade there, and he would make like a fist and he was attacking Mike like this.

Fran Root (19:00):

Well, he pretty quickly took Mike to the ground with the assistance of Karen. Karen helped hold Mike to the ground. They rolled his body up in a blanket and carried it down the steps, put it into Karen’s car and went to Lakeside Golf Course, where they dumped it in the spillway. We placed both Keith and Karen under arrest for murder. And we were getting ready to transport both of them to the jail. Keith blurts out from, we had him sitting at a desk and he barks, I said, well, I suppose you want to go by my grandmother’s and get those knives. Mike Malone, the first Commonwealth Attorney, first assistant Commonwealth Attorney, had to tell him literally to shut up that he had invoked his right to a lawyer and could not make statements until we got him one. So still, that was so I would call a pretty good spontaneous utterance.

Wendy (19:58):

I’d say so.

Fran Root (19:59):

Yeah.

Wendy (20:00):

So who contacts Elizabeth or does anybody contact Elizabeth at this point and says your friends have been talking?

Fran Root (20:06):

Oh yeah, we do. We had taken out a arrest warrant for Elizabeth Turpin for the charge of murder, called Jefferson County homicide squad, asking them to go by, and I think it was her brother’s place that they were at and execute the warrant. So Jefferson County picked her up from the brother’s house and we had Maria Neil, dispatched to Louisville to pick her up and bring her back to the Fayette County Detention Center. This cultivated a 90-hour work week for the robbery homicide squad. We had 40-plus officers involved, including the six detectives and four crime scene technicians. They were 14, 16, 13, 12, one 21-hour day. And then the last one, 13 hours, ending with me meeting with the parents and informing them of the arrest.

Fran Root (21:07):

We did 120 witness interviews during that week, seven crime lab submissions with three crime lab scientists assigned to it. Four search warrants were executed on six different crime scenes. I like to talk about some of the homicides that you go out on and you just call it a sprint. You show up at 9:00 that night and you’re done by 9:00 the next morning. That’s considered about as quick as any homicide will go. And that was a very clear know who done it to it and plenty of evidence there. But some of them go on for months, but I like to call this one an Ironman marathon just from the … You get so tired when you stop to think about it, but normally you don’t stop very often.

Wendy (21:59):

Yeah. I was going to ask if sleep was just optional at this point?

Fran Root (22:02):

It was. It was just optional. And we finished that one 21-hour day that I think maybe I got about three hours of sleep on. But then you get to this, at least a preliminary climax of knowing that you’ve developed your reasonable suspicion and your probable cause, and you’ve got three defendants in custody. And by the time we got done, it was about 10:00 at night. I believe we raced each other down to Columbia Steakhouse downtown and got a big old steak and probably a couple of beverages.

Ray Larson (22:39):

Adult beverages, no doubt.

Fran Root (22:41):

No doubt.

David (22:41):

Good way to celebrate. Let me ask you this, because there’s a popular TV show called First 48. And you’re talking about the sprints and the marathons and everything. Do you put a lot into that, on that 48 hour concept or theory?

Fran Root (22:53):

Oh, I think so. I think so. And that’s one of the reasons I was so scared on this case is because we gone well past 48 hours without really being able to sink our teeth into something. We were up to what the fourth day of the investigation before we finally had everything clicked together.

David (23:16):

Gotcha. And you get to that point where you’re celebrating, having a victory or a good outcome and everything. How’s that compared to, for example, the surviving victim’s family, what’s their perspective? Are they in the same realm with you on that or-

Fran Root (23:29):

No. You would like to think that they would have some kind of relief or even some kind of closure or happiness or whatever that you’ve put the bad guys into jail, but it didn’t bring their son back. And I think too, they know what’s coming. That it’s going to be months and maybe years to get to trial and then a lengthy trial and they might not get convicted. So I’m afraid it just never ends for the victims.

Wendy (24:06):

Well they have to keep reliving it over and over.

Fran Root (24:08):

Oh yeah. Well, and then there’s parole hearings. Yeah. And so there’s no happy endings for them.

David (24:15):

To get that point right where we talking about now, where’s it go from here once they make that arrest and start that process?

Ray Larson (24:22):

Well, these three defendants were arrested. All three of them were charged with the intentional murder of Michael Turpin. And the murder, they were charged with a murder for profit. Because if you’ll remember, Fran talked about this insurance policy. And in Kentucky, the death penalty is available in only eight different circumstances, the most egregious of murder, whether it’s multiple murder, like Timothy McVeigh killed 167, a murder in the course of a rape, or a robbery in the first degree, or a burglary in the first degree. Just those kind of cases that are just awful, and one of which is a murder for profit. And it was alleged by the grand jury that these people, three people murdered Mike Turpin for his insurance money.

Ray Larson (25:32):

And so as a result, the grand jury indicted these people and it was a death penalty case, which elevates all of the stakes involved and the preparation for trial and all of the rest of it. So at this point, of course, I’ve been involved with Fran and the police throughout this investigation. I was kind of kept in the loop because unless the prosecutor is kept in the loop then there’s not a good relationship between police and prosecutors, and it makes it harder. So they presented to the grand jury, they were indicted. And then we start looking at the case.

Ray Larson (26:22):

Now, let me tell you a problem with this case that we noticed right away. You got three defendants and all three of those defendants know what happened. And all of them have, as Fran says, lawyered up. They’re represented by lawyers and we can’t force them to testify against themselves. So what kind of evidence do we have other than their own testimony that would convict them? None. I mean, we got suspicion all over the place, just like Fran had the first day he ran into Elizabeth. But we didn’t have any proof that anybody did anything, because they’re all have lawyers and don’t have to testify. So we had to figure out how are we going to manage this? And so we consult with Fran and the other detectives and the other lawyers involved in the case. And we say, somebody’s got to testify about this. And this is where you get into this thing that everybody hates, plea bargaining.

Ray Larson (27:42):

And so we had three people there. I think we all felt, at least I did for sure, but I think all of us felt that none of this would’ve happened, but for Elizabeth Turpin. And so she was our main target and we all thought, why don’t we try to talk to Karen Brown? And so she was represented and we talked to her attorney and said, we’d like to talk to Karen Brown, your client, because we had a court ruling that didn’t allow us to use Karen’s statement that Fran has told us about. It was suppressed, so that was out. So we wanted to talk to Karen’s lawyer and we did. And he told us she would be happy to talk to you, if you would recommend that she serve three years. I told him basically, to kiss my ass, that that wasn’t going to happen, that I would rather that Elizabeth Turpin walked out of there rather than give one of them three years. So Karen Brown was off the table.

Ray Larson (29:15):

The other option was Keith. And at this point we didn’t know who did what at the scene. We didn’t know who did the stabbing. We didn’t know who did the holding down. So I can remember talking to Fran about this. And I said, we got to try to talk to Keith Bouchard. And we don’t know what his role is. So we did, and we decided, how can we do this. We haven’t even talked to his brother, a twin brother, Kenneth. I said, let’s try to get ahold of Kenneth and get him to give us a statement. And I’m not sure how it happened, but Keith learned about that and must have communicated with Kenneth because we got a call from Keith’s attorney, Jennifer, and said, Keith would like to talk to you. Well, my fear as the prosecutor in this case, I don’t want to plea bargain with the person that did the stabbing. I just did not want to do that because you got to think in terms of how’s the jury going to take this? You see, because I’m getting ready to take a case to trial.

David (30:42):

And so let me ask you this, along with them. How about the family? How do families respond to that, if you come to them with a plea bargain?

Ray Larson (30:50):

Well, we talked to Don and Maggie throughout this thing. There was nothing new. We told them what we wanted to. And they also believed that Elizabeth was the main character in this thing and they wanted us to do whatever we had to do to convict the main character. So this is something we did. And it was when whoever interviewed Keith found out that Keith did the stabbing and that Karen held Mike down while he was stabbing. So I thought, oh hell, the jury’s going to hate me for this, but we didn’t have any evidence. And so we recommended a life sentence for Keith and he pled guilty. And then he testified and he was a reluctant witness on the stand, but he made it through. So this case went to trial and these were days when trials went to trial quickly. This thing went to trial within six months of the time it occurred.

Ray Larson (32:10):

These days, it can be years before a murder case goes to trial. But it went to trial, and one of the few times, well, I’ve got a rule that I will not, on juries, I don’t allow lawyers to be on juries because they turn into critics and I don’t want retired school teachers because they think, oh, if he’d just learned to read earlier, everything would be okay. I left a lawyer on it because we had, we knew that they were very difficult instructions. Those are the, when the judge gives, reads the law to the jurors before they go out to deliberate, there was very complicated instructions and I wanted a lawyer on there to be able to go through the process, the thought process with them. And so we had a lawyer on there and the jury was out, I guess they went out at night and they came back and went out again.

Ray Larson (33:18):

And they came back and found both of them guilty of intentional murder for profit, and that means the death penalty is on the table because you go through two processes in a criminal trial. One is the guilt phase where the jury has to determine whether or not a person is guilty as charged, and if they do, then you come back and go through the penalty phase. So we did that and I can’t remember how long they were out, Fran.

Fran Root (33:56):

I think it was longer on the guilt phase.

Ray Larson (33:58):

Because the death penalty was on the table. I have had an opportunity to talk to some of the jurors in the years since then. It’s been been 30 some. And they’ll come up to me on the street and talk to me about it. And the question I had for the jurors was, tell me, did the fact that we let Keith Bouchard plead guilty, play any role in your decision? He says, nope, we knew you had to do it. Which was refreshing, because that means they were thinking. It was a pretty close vote on the death penalty for Elizabeth Turpin, but they ultimately sentenced she and Karen Brown, both to life in the penitentiary and they have to serve at least 25 years before they’re eligible for parole.

Ray Larson (34:53):

Now, one of the heartbreaking things about a case like this is the damn parole system, because the Turpin family goes to every parole hearing, and so do I. They will be coming up on the fifth parole hearing that they have to attend. Keith, I think, is sentenced to a serve-out, means he’s in for the rest of his life, the person that’ll help him out of prison is going to be the undertaker. Now, we’ve got the parole hearing for Karen Brown and Elizabeth Turpin coming up. And I’ll be there and I’ll bet Fran will be there.

David (35:35):

When is that coming up?

Ray Larson (35:36):

In October of 2021.

David (35:40):

Right around the corner.

Ray Larson (35:42):

Assuming I’m still alive. So, this was one of the highest profile cases and trials in the history of Fayette County. The courtroom was packed with old folks and all sorts of conglomeration of types of people. And they would stand in line to get in. It was wild and it was a decent result on it.

Ray Larson (36:18):

Now, how about the family? Listen, the family never gets over it. And I’ll tell you something interesting about people and death in America. Americans give folks 30 days to get over the death of a family member or anybody else, 30 days, after which they don’t want to hear about it anymore. And the family of Don Turpin and every other person that’s lost somebody wants to talk about it all the time. And so when any of the people that are listening to this podcast have an opportunity to talk to somebody who has lost someone to violence or anything else, ask them how they’re doing and they’ll do what people always do. Oh, I’m fine. But then ask them, how are you doing really? And I’ll tell you, they’ll cloud up. Some of them start crying. And if you ask them those things, number one, they’ll appreciate it. But number two, be prepared to listen because they want to talk.

Fran Root (37:33):

And don’t ever tell them that you know how they feel.

David (37:37):

Absolutely.

Ray Larson (37:38):

Okay. You’re a star witness in this homicide. Tell me what kind of preparation you do and are you nervous about it and how do you prepare for cross examination? Tell me about how you do that.

Fran Root (38:00):

The avenue I like to take is putting together what I call my testimony jacket, where I assemble every piece of paper, every note that I think I might need to remember and talk about during my testimony, both to the prosecutor and plus what may be exculpatory that the defense attorney’s going to try to lead me down to. So for the weeks, sometimes even a month before the trial, I’m putting together these copies and they are copies separate from the case jacket, just get out what I need and then I can mark them up in any way I want to. I highlight and write notes off to the side. I say, well, that question didn’t get answered on that particular memo, let me go follow up on it. Maybe we need to talk to somebody else more. And I found that 95% of the major cases I ever went to trial on, I never had to open that testimony book, never had to break it open. Just knowing it was there, it’s kind of like Linus and his blanket. But I think more importantly, it was putting the thing together that-

Ray Larson (39:14):

What about getting ready for cross examination, those snarling defense lawyers that want you to trip over your tongue?

Fran Root (39:23):

I treat them just like I would the prosecutor.

Ray Larson (39:26):

Oh, that bad?

Fran Root (39:27):

Well, almost. In court, as well as the prosecutor, I always consider myself an independent giver of fact. I’m not on anybody’s side, even though I am. I certainly want to see justice come out of it, but I think the more you can come across to a jury that you are independent, you’re not going to say anything that isn’t true. And you’re not even going to lean it one way or another, no spin in other words. And the other part of that is, if you’ve got a good prosecutor, in this case, we’ve got a great prosecutor, that spends all the time that’s necessary with you to prepare you for going on the stand. I worked with many prosecutors that don’t even think the police are important in a criminal case, caught them at times not even reading a case jacket and then just shooting from, getting bad results.

Fran Root (40:24):

Well, you won’t see that out of Ray the DA. You’re going to be fully prepared and that just helps your confidence. I’ve seen new people take the stand and they get the dry mouth and the deer and a headlight look and all that, but I think even new people that are prepared properly can do a pretty good job.

Ray Larson (40:48):

David, you’ve always said something about detectives or people that testify, need to testify in order to learn how to testify. What do you mean?

David (41:01):

Absolutely. If you don’t practice that, it’s like any perishable skill, if you don’t experience it, I think you’re in bad shape when you get to trial. And one of the things that I see now and I noticed that before I retired is because of the way the system works through agreements and plea bargains is that a lot of police really don’t get good trial testimony experience anymore. And like anything else, sometimes you got to learn the hard way. Sometimes you have to get on that stand and take an aggressive cross examination to understand what that feels like.

Ray Larson (41:34):

And maybe get your head handed to you.

David (41:36):

Yeah, exactly. And then to move into that realm, then you learn how to prepare like Fran was talking about. And probably for me, the biggest thing is when Fran was talking about being right in the middle of everything and the objectivity that you display and the fact-finding and giving, to me, that was the trick for me too, because the jury then looks at you and you become harder to shake on cross examination. As a matter of fact, that a lot of attorneys I met would go too far and the jury would look over and they would almost, I think they were looking at it like, well, that’s bullying, because they’re just trying to do the right thing. But I know for me, whenever I walked in and went with the case, is that, for sure we were prepared, there was no doubt about that. But the practice of it is what made it real.

David (42:24):

And again, that’s what’s rough on a lot of people. Sometimes, for example, if you’re a patrol officer and you take this first missing person report, you’re going to start that trial. And I used to teach that in report writing, you’re going to take the stand, you’ll be one of the first people up there. And if they haven’t had any trial experience, just simply talking about going out there that day and meeting people and taking those facts and putting them on paper will intimidate a new officer because they’re terrified. But practice is like anything else, it’s a perishable skill. You have to have things thrown at you to know how to catch them or to swing back if it comes to that. But that’s a problem I think police face everywhere because the expediency of the system is, we don’t get on the stand as much as we should.

Ray Larson (43:07):

I was a prosecutor in this town for 32 years, and I had the great benefit of working with really professional police. I didn’t have any cowboys to deal with. And you have no idea what a benefit that is to a prosecutor. So Fran, thanks. And David, thank you.

David (43:36):

No, thank you. That was a blast.

Ray Larson (43:37):

That’s my honor.

Fran Root (43:38):

Enjoyed it.

David (43:39):

I’ve always said this, and Fran, you can say this too, because you left with a higher rank than I did is, I have a significant collection of badges, but I’ve always said there’s only one in that display case that really holds a lot of meaning. That’s one that says detective and that’s because the time I spent with Ray in his office, no doubt about that.

Fran Root (43:58):

No doubt.

Ray Larson (43:59):

Well, we’re just sucking up to each other here.

Wendy (44:01):

Ray, sounds like you’re the superstar here today.

Ray Larson (44:03):

Well, I always like Fran and David.

David (44:07):

I quit recording two minutes ago.

David (44:14):

The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was you to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us a five star review on Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. And please tell your friends.

David (44:50):

Lock it down, Judy.