Two Episodes | Published December 15 and 29, 2020
14 year old Chelsea Hayes. Brutally assaulted, then murdered. Her lifeless body is propped up on a wicker love seat on a porch for most of the day, while the suspect nonchalantly played video games just inside the front door with his friends.
Hear lead homicide investigator Chattanooga Tennessee Lt. Daniel Francis describe this brutal and callous act as he details the investigation that was conducted in Chattanooga in 2012.
Listen carefully as Lt. Francis, a third generation police officer, goes well past the details of the investigation, and takes the listener into his perspective and heart.
This will move you.
Two episodes. Unlimited personal perspective from The Murder Police.
Chelsea Hayes
Chelsea Hayes
Chelsea Hayes
Chattanooga Police Department’s Lt. Daniel Francis
An example of a laser scanned crime scene image as mentioned in the Podcast. This image is not from the Chelsea Hayes investigation (Photo/Winnebago County Sheriff’s Office).
Show Transcripts
Copyright Protected, please cite source if used.
Part 1 of 2:
David Lyons:
Warning. The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury. Listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. The Murder of Chelsea Hayes, Part One.
David Lyons:
Well, Wendy, why don’t you tell the listeners in our audience what they’re going to hear in these next two episodes that we have to offer?
Wendy Lyons:
Okay, David. This case is a 2012 murder of a 14 year old victim by the name of Chelsea Hayes, took place in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and as you know, we went down to interview the lead detective that worked that case. That’s Lieutenant Daniel Francis. And this case had me on the edge of my seat from the moment Daniel started talking. And after the interview was finished, I was still sitting there scratching my head, trying to just wrap my mind around the whole thing. What about you? What captivated you in it?
David Lyons:
I think pretty much the same thing as you. First of all, I was so impressed with Daniel and how articulate he is and very detailed. The listeners will catch that as well. The other thing is that this case is going to demonstrate the power of observation and the importance of detectives and investigators and police officers using their intuition, because they’re going to find out as they listen that they knew something was wrong at this scene. And I’m not going to go into any more detail on spoil it, because it’s actually pretty interesting in that aspect too.
David Lyons:
Those are the things that caught me. The other thing on both episodes is for people to listen, because one of the concepts of the Murder Police Podcast is to go beyond just the case details. You can watch the news for that. When we talk to these people that actually do the job, and Daniel does an excellent job of this in this case, we want the detectives to get their heart into this so we hear the passion for the job, and then we also hear what it’s like to actually do the work. And that’s going to be a special treat for people, especially when Daniel talks about some of the things he did.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah. And I would like to add, the irony in this case is that it started out with a missing child call. That’s what the call went out as. And if our audience has listened to any of our other podcasts, they will learn that the Hailey McCone went out also as a missing child and then she was subsequently murdered by a serial killer. So there’s a lot of similarity in these two. Hailey was 13. Chelsea was 14. They both were reported missing. They both were murdered. So with that being said, I think we should dig right in.
David Lyons:
Let’s go.
Wendy Lyons:
Today, Murder Police Podcast has come down to Chattanooga to meet with Daniel. Daniel, thank you so much for inviting us down and taking your time to talk with us.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely.
David Lyons:
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, Daniel?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
My name is Daniel Francis. I’m a Lieutenant with the Chattanooga Police Department. I’ve served with Chattanooga PD for a little over 14 years at this point. I am a third generation police officer. My grandfather served as a reserve officer up in the state of Michigan. My father actually joined the Chattanooga Police Department when I was about four years old and worked his way up through the ranks and even spent a bit of time in homicide. And I grew to just love the investigative side of police work through that. And I joined and ended up in homicide after about six years of service in the patrol division.
David Lyons:
Is that about normal? How much time does an officer usually spend in Chattanooga before they go to a specialized assignment?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
That’s a little quick. Normally you’re eligible for a specialized assignment after three years, but homicide specifically takes a little bit longer to get there. Our department’s about 500 people, and so there’s several different opportunities that you have to do specialty investigations. I mean there’s traffic, there’s canine, there’s a whole list of things, but to get over into homicide, it’s normally around 10, 12 years. Some people, maybe eight. Thankfully I was able to get in right around the six year mark.
David Lyons:
Can I take you back to your dad a little bit? Because that’s fascinating. Do you remember growing up watching him do the work, and did that play a role in your interest in this kind of work?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely. When I was 12, Dad took me to my first autopsy and it was a case where a guy got robbed and as the robber was walking away, he said, “I know who you are, I’m going to get even.” And the guy turned around and just fired one shot in his direction and hit him square in the chest and killed him. And Dad took me to that autopsy at the age of 12. I can remember another time when, of all things, I was on my way to a church youth activity and Dad got a phone call, and he’s like, “Well, I can drop you off at this youth activity or you can go to me with the scene of this DOA they just found.” I’m like, “Are you kidding me? I’m going to the scene.” Now, I wasn’t allowed inside the scene, but I could sit inside his car right there on the perimeter of the scene, and got to watch all the work that was done. I was probably about 16 around that time and just found it absolutely fascinating.
David Lyons:
That’s incredible. And I love my dad, but when I was 12, I think the most we did was go swimming, so nothing on dad, but that’s an incredible thing. So did you ever watch him bring work home and work on it?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely. Case files would come home. There were even times when I would go to the office and hang out with him. I can remember not so much when he was in homicide, but when he was on specialty details, if they were having break-ins or things like that, I can remember meeting him out in the field, eating dinner, the family would go out and see him because he couldn’t always make it home. When he did make it home, when he was in investigations, he would bring those case files home and go through them. Before he went to homicide, he was in the property crimes division. And so when he was there, he would teach us how to lift finger prints and how to do all kinds of stuff that most people don’t really get to do.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And it was just an amazing experience to have that. And it really developed my interest in investigations. So once I got on the police department, it became a goal of mine to get into an investigative unit. And for me personally, homicide was kind of the pinnacle of the investigative units, because there are very few things that are worse than a homicide. I mean, one of the only other things I can think of are some of the sex based crimes where the victim’s left living, but ultimately with homicides, I felt like I was going after real criminals, real bad guys, people that really needed to be in jail and taken off the streets and made society a better place.
David Lyons:
That’s interesting, because a lot of people don’t understand that it’s work you actually always take home, literally, and it was that way when I was in my unit. I still remember, a quick story about kids in the houses, that I was at trial one time and I had my murder book on a stand and we were going through the notes and going through an interview and I flipped a page and my daughter, Brooke, had scribbled and doodled for the next 17 pages, which was hard to keep a straight face in trial because it was unicorns and fairies and flowers and things like that. So we do actually bring that home. Speaking of family, tell us a little bit about your home life.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
My wife and I have been married for 17 years. We’re coming up on 18 years in March. And we have five children with a sixth one on the way.
David Lyons:
Congratulations.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yeah, so we have a 13 year old, 11 year old, nine year old, seven year old, three year old and another one due in June.
Wendy Lyons:
How exciting.
David Lyons:
No kidding. A busy guy. A busy guy.
Wendy Lyons:
A busy mom. What do you mean a busy guy?
David Lyons:
Well, true. Yeah, she probably has some role in that. I’m sure.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
I jokingly tell her that what she has to do is more difficult than what I’ve ever had to do at work.
David Lyons:
I’ll go along with that.
Wendy Lyons:
I believe it.
David Lyons:
All teasing aside. I’ll go along with that.
Wendy Lyons:
You better believe it.
David Lyons:
Well with that said, give us an idea what this case is about, who the victim is, and just a quick overview, a flyover.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It all started with a missing 14 year old. Was originally reported as a runaway and eventually it ends up culminating in us locating an unidentified DOA or dead on arrival. The identification process, interviews of the potential suspect and some other people around the case, and then finally with a plea deal for the conviction for the murder of the 14 year old.
David Lyons:
Before we get into it, did you notice a lot with yourself as far as your perspective on dealing with a child victim compared to an adult victim? Emotionally, is that more challenging for you?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely. At the time that I was in homicide, currently I got promoted and moved out. So at the time I was in homicide, we also handled rape cases as well as homicides. We have since split that up and we have a sex crimes unit and then we have a violent crimes unit. So this was probably the second hardest case I had to deal with. And I don’t mean this in a callous way. Sometimes when you show up, the victim had made bad choices, which led to their demise, and as difficult as it is to see someone passed away, you can kind of understand what transpired and led to that. With the 14 year old, even though bad decisions are made, it is very hard to deal with emotionally the fact that she passed away because of her decisions.
David Lyons:
There’s always a sense of genuine innocence. I believe that too, because of that young age. Well let’s talk about her then a little bit. What do we know about the victim? What’s her name and what about her and her life before she passed?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So Chelsea Hayes is her name. She was 14 years old and she went one of our local high schools. Now she did have a 15 month old baby. He was a boy. And she was still living with her mom and grandmother at the time. And just very active, had a ton of friends. People at her school absolutely loved her. And you would see that play lay out in the days after she passed away, just between the Facebook postings and all the stuff that the friends did to gather around the family.
Wendy Lyons:
So tell us Daniel, what happened? When this came out, you said initially as a missing child, what were you doing when that call came out and how did it turn from missing child to murder victim?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It was sat Saturday, May 12th, 2012. There was a call into the police department about a runaway child. The patrol officers responded and took the initial report. This had happened previously, so the mother wasn’t overly concerned with the fact that she was missing. Later that afternoon, Chelsea would call her mother to tell her that she would be returning home that evening, so her mom called back into the police department and let them know that she had made contact with her and that everything was okay. That night, she never returned home, so her mom called back into the police department to let us know that she had failed to return home. The next day was Sunday, May 13th, 2012, and that was actually Mother’s Day. So at about 8:04 PM, I was working and heard over the radio that there was a call of a distressed party, and when patrol got on the scene, they actually got on the radio and advised that it wasn’t a distressed party, that it was a deceased party.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And I was working with another investigator. I was paired with him. And so I called him and we ended up calling the patrol officer, and the patrol officer is on the phone. He says, “Look, I don’t know exactly what happened, but the story we’re being told by the people at this residence does not match what’s going on here.” And the call came out that this party had come up and said she didn’t feel good. Sat down on the front porch. And they don’t know what happened. And the officers arrived to find Chelsea sitting on the front porch and she was deceased. We responded to the scene, we got there and upon examining the house, to kind of give you a, a visual idea, there were some steps you would walk up and then they had a covered front porch, and looking at the house from the street, on the left side of the porch, there was a wicker love seat, and Chelsea was sitting in that love seat right outside the front door.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
She was sitting in the chair and she had bruising on her neck and on her cheek, as well as blood running from the corner of her mouth, but the blood was running up toward her forehead. And so it appeared that she had been staged in that chair, because if she was sitting in that chair and passed away, the blood would come out of the corner of her mouth and run down her chin because she was sitting upright. We went inside, and as we entered the residence, there were three or four boys in the living room, and they were playing video games. And one of those boys that was playing video games was our suspect, Carlos Harrison. So we separated everybody in the house and began to talk to everybody individually to ask them what they knew about what was going on.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And I talked to the suspect’s mother, and she advised me that this girl, she didn’t know who she was, came up, knocked on their door and had asked her for a cup of water and if she could sit down because she didn’t feel well. And there was even a cup of water staged outside by the body as well. She said she came, sat down and passed away. She didn’t know what happened. And at that point, we’d already had everybody separated. I instructed the patrol officer there at the scene to call for additional cars because we were going to transport everybody individually down to the main service center to conduct interviews. What I was being told did not match what the evidence on the front porch was, and it appeared that they had already put some sort of story together about what took place.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So from the time we arrived, I wanted to make sure everybody stayed separate so they couldn’t collude anymore on their story. And if we were able to kind of chip away at anybody’s story and gain more information, I didn’t want that shared amongst everybody that was there. So we began to kind of separate people out and take them out the back door. So the house is completely locked down. Nobody’s going in and or out the front door at this point. So we took everybody out the back door. There was an alley that ran behind the house, and patrol cars could pull up. We could walk people out, put them in the back of the patrol car, have them transported down to the main service center. And at that point, we’d keep everybody separate inside the service center and conduct interviews.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
As I went to walk past the suspect’s mother again, she put her finger in my chest, incredibly hard. She actually bruised my chest. But she mouthed, “I need to talk to you.” And so as I took her outside and went to put her in a car, she was seen going outside with everybody else, she says, “Oh, I forgot my charging cable for my phone. Can you walk me back inside to get my charging cable?” So as we entered the rear of the house, I actually had a small digital recorder and I turned it on to capture our conversation.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
She receives a phone call as we’re walking in the house and she tells the person on the other end of the line, quote, “I ain’t lying to this man anymore.” End quote. And as I begin to talk to her, she tells me that the story was made up, that the suspect, Carlos, asked her to lie, and he’s the one that provided the story. Chelsea did in fact come home with Carlos the night before. Said around midnight, between midnight and 2:00 AM. Sometime in that timeframe, Chelsea came home with Carlos. Then she went to bed about 2:00 AM. And when she woke up, Chelsea was already deceased and on the front porch.
David Lyons:
Well, that’s a big break early in that, because up to that point, even though you identified Carlos as a suspect, I don’t think you all probably had anything other than suspicions that the scene wasn’t making sense, I suppose. What would it have looked like if you hadn’t learned that? What do you think some of the possibilities of where that case would’ve been, or if you hadn’t had information like that in the beginning?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So some of the stuff we actually did after identifying him as the main suspect. It’s kind of similar to what we would’ve done if we didn’t have a suspect. So we end up with the medical examiner coming out and they go through all of their litany of things on their checklist that they document. And as we move toward the autopsy phase, we do things like take samples, all kinds of different swabs from different parts of the body, fingernail clippings, looking for that DNA, and we send all of that stuff off for DNA.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then we would, and we did in this case, and we would anyways, is swab everybody at the house and anybody else that was identified as being at the house during the time we knew she was there to see if we could possibly get a DNA match. And there actually ended up being some Facebook postings that would help us out as well, where the suspect posted on Facebook saying, this was about two, three hours before the police were even called, saying that there was some girl on his porch that was knocked out and he didn’t know what was wrong with her.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then while we were on the front porch, before we separated him from his phone, he had made another post saying that she was dead when the patrol officers had arrived and said that she was passed away. So those types of things are what initially led us to go, “There’s something here that doesn’t add up.” But if those things hadn’t happened, we’d still go down that DNA route. We’re going to look for fingerprints. We’re going to look for if any neighbors have any type of camera systems and just collect as much information that we can as fast as we can.
Wendy Lyons:
So while you’re having these people transported down to your main facility, was protocol that you all call the coroner and they come and retrieve Chelsea’s body, or what did you all do to maintain that crime scene at that point?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So the patrol officers that initially arrive, they’ll put up crime scene tape and they will hold the perimeter. And we actually have a log that lists everyone that comes in and out of the crime scene. And we try to limit that to only people that absolutely need to come in and out of the crime scene. Initially when they arrive, there maybe a few more people that come and go until we figure out what’s kind of going on. Once you realize, oh, she’s passed away, they’ll lock that down because you want as few people in and out of that scene as possible, because you don’t want any cross-contamination. Like I said, if we didn’t have a suspect, we’re going to look for the DNA. Even with a suspect, you’re still looking at DNA. Any level of cross-contamination can absolutely ruin a case.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And so you want to limit the amount of cross-contamination that can take place. So we lock everything down. We notify the coroner’s office and the coroner or the medical examiner here, they have investigators that initially come out to the scene and they work directly with us. And we have a crime scene unit as well. Our crime scene unit, our homicide unit and the medical examiner investigator team, we all work together. Investigators kind of take a step back. And the medical examiner investigator and the crime scene unit work to document everything around the scene.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
One of the really neat things that we have, and we’ve had it for years, is we have a laser that will take measurements, and it actually takes thousands and thousands of measurements, and it renders a 3D model of the crime scene. And so they will set that up and begin that LIDAR scan of the entire area of the scene before anything is picked up or moved. And that can take a little time. But what that does is when we go to court and we go to testify about anything, we can actually put a 3D model of the crime scene the way we found it up for the court to see. And that’s immensely valuable. There is something to actual photos, but to be able to render a 3D with exact measurements of evidence is, where bullet holes are, where shell casings are or anything like that is pretty neat to see
David Lyons:
Much more accurate than a typical crime scene sketch that was done for years. And I’d argue, those could take a lot longer than LIDAR could.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah. And that’s really impressive. And like you say, it lends to being able to see, and the pictures, of course they’re helpful, but seeing that in that 3D, I’d not heard of that. So that’s really, really impressive
David Lyons:
I’ll find some examples and I’ll put that in the show notes.
Wendy Lyons:
Yeah.
David Lyons:
So the listeners can get an idea of what that looks like, because it is pretty fascinating.
Wendy Lyons:
So when you’re out there with Chelsea, the victim, was there blood evidence around? Did you see something of a struggle or of a horrible crime? You mentioned there was blood trailing up, which is indicative of she had been laying down for it to trail up. Did you see any of that evidence, or inside was there tons of blood in places?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, we did not locate much evidence inside at all. Kind of to back up just a little bit, when we initially arrived, we weren’t sure of her identity. We hadn’t put two and two together initially of the runaway and the homicide victim. We felt strongly that it could be the runaway, but we didn’t know for sure. It wouldn’t be til a couple hours later that we would get an actual positive identification on who the victim was. Working from that angle, we were working with an unknown victim, the majority of the evidence we had is just what was on the front porch. Looking inside, the house wasn’t incredibly neat, but it didn’t look like a major struggle took place. Visually, we couldn’t see any blood or anything. And there wasn’t a lot of blood on her. It looked like one drop of blood had come from the corner of her mouth and had run up and stopped near the top of her forehead. But you could clearly see the direction of travel on that blood and that was running up from the position she was in.
Wendy Lyons:
So the coroner comes, you mentioned that you wouldn’t find out for a couple of hours later a positive identity on her. So when you figure out that this is in fact her, what happens at that point? Is your suspect and the other remaining people that was in the household, are they still being interviewed? Or what’s happening in those back scenes?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So we had completed the interviews by the time we make the identification. Once the coroner and everybody’s at the scene documenting that, one of the homicide investigators will stay at the scene with them and the crime scene unit, as well as uniformed officers holding the perimeter. At least two, sometimes three more homicide investigators will go back to the main service center in order to conduct the interviews.
Wendy Lyons:
Had they called her by name, the suspect, Carlos, or his mother. Did they use the name Chelsea? Or did they just indicate that they didn’t know who she was despite them finally admitting she had been in the house?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So they told us that she mumbled a name and they thought it could be Chelsea or Chastity or they weren’t exactly sure. They gave us a list of several different names that started with C, but that she had mumbled it before she passed out when she walked up and didn’t feel good, is initially what we were told. When we were told that, and we were able to get with missing persons and tell them, “Hey, we have these possible names,” immediately it’s, “This is who we believe it is.” One of the hindrances in IDing her was the fact that when she left home, she actually left in the middle of the night and her mom did not know what she was wearing. So when she left home, the next morning, her mom woke up to the sound of the baby crying and she went into the room to see why the baby was crying, and realized that Chelsea had left.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So she had no idea what she was wearing. So we had a name. At this point we had a name, a date of birth, but we didn’t have any other identifiable features about her. Being 14, she didn’t have an ID. We didn’t have anything else to look for. And so we were actually able to make the identification, the positive identification from her clothing. We were able to share pictures of her clothing with her family, and they confirmed this is in fact her clothes, these clothes are in fact missing from her bedroom. And that’s actually how we made the positive identification. So that’s part of the reason, when I say we didn’t know who she was, we had a really idea of who she was, but I’m really leery to say, “This is in fact the person,” until we get that confirmation from the family.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And so that took a little bit longer than it does in a normal instance. So while all of that was going on, we continued to conduct interviews. We interviewed the suspect’s mother, her boyfriend. He was really straightforward. As soon as he sat down, he just flat said, “Yeah, Carlos asked me to lie and I’m not going to.” He said, “I was here last night. She came home with him. I went to bed. I got up at nine o’clock and went to work. Everybody else in the house was asleep. When I came home at five o’clock in the afternoon, she was on the front porch. And I went upstairs and asked my girlfriend, the suspect’s mother, what’s going on with this?” And so there was actually some indication that she had been on the porch for several hours before 911 was called.
Wendy Lyons:
Did any neighbors report having seen them carry her out to the porch?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No neighbors reported having seen them carry her. One neighbor across the street during the neighborhood canvas would report just seeing her on the porch. Wasn’t sure how she got there and wasn’t sure how long she was there, but did remember seeing her there for a while.
Wendy Lyons:
Because you mentioned that the boyfriend went to work at nine and I’m guessing she was still in the home at that point.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yes.
Wendy Lyons:
And then when he comes home, hours later at five in the afternoon, that’s a pretty brazen thing to do and broad daylight, pack her out and position her there. I guess I would think that many people would see the goings on of that. But in this case you said it didn’t. So you have the people down you’re interviewing, victim’s already been identified, family knows what’s going on. And what happens at that point?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Well, we interview the suspect. And as we interview the suspect, he initially gives us the same story that his mother gave us, which was the absolute lie. So we let him continue with that lie all the way through. In many cases, if they’re not going to tell me the whole truth, I’d rather them lie to me, because that is just as powerful when it comes to testimony as telling the entire truth. And so we let him finish his lie and then we confront him and basically tell him, “We don’t exactly know what happened, but we know that that is not what happened.” So then he alters this story just a little bit to where, “Okay, I did in fact, bring her home with me. We had consensual sex. She left after sex. Came back later the next day and then died on my porch.” And so we kind of challenged him on that story as well.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then he kind of changed his story to, “Oh, oh, okay. She came home with me, we had consensual sex. We woke up the next morning, everything was fine. I went out, made some breakfast, played some video games, came back and found her dead on the floor. I don’t know what happened.” I’m like, “Yeah.” And we challenged him on that story again. We’re like, “Yeah, I don’t think that’s exactly what happened either.” And then we actually showed him a, a picture of her from sitting on the front porch.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And he looked away and gave us some expletives and said, “Okay, I ain’t lying no more. This is what happened. I was in East Lake and she came up with a couple other guys. We got to talking. We hit it off, asked her if she wanted to come home with me. She said yes. We went home. We hung out for a couple hours. Mom had some friends over, they were watching basketball. Brothers were playing some video games and everybody went to bed. We went to bed. We had consensual sex. And then I left her and let her sleep in my bedroom by herself. And I went right outside the bedroom door and slept on the couch.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And we asked him to clarify if there was anyone else that was with her. He said, “No, absolutely not.” Was there even a possibility? “No, absolutely not.” He said, “But when I came in to the bedroom the next morning, I found her shaking in the floor and didn’t know what to do. So I got my 11 year old brothers and my eight year old brother and we moved her to the front porch and realized we had left some articles of clothing in my room. So we moved her back into my room, put the articles of clothing back on her, moved her back out to the front porch and left her.” And ultimately that was the final version of his testimony, which isn’t exactly what we believed happened, but it was pretty close.
Wendy Lyons:
Probably as close as you were going to get.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Well, it was as close as we were going to get, because during the autopsy phase, it was clear that the sex was not consensual. So he ends up getting charged with three counts of rape in connection with the murder for three different acts that we were able to prove took place because of the evidence gained at the autopsy.
David Lyons:
Did you attend the autopsy?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yes, I did.
David Lyons:
Is there anything you can share about that without going into too much graphic detail as to what those charges were based on?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It was based on blood evidence, bruising in different areas of the body, as well as DNA evidence that we were able to collect it. She was beat up pretty bad. The medical examiner described it almost like shaken baby syndrome, where there was bleeding all over her brain and her vocal cords were severed from screaming so loud. And she had bruising around her neck and bruising on her cheek. Initially, my initial thought was she was probably strangled. However, the medical examiner listed her cause of as blunt force trauma from all the bleeding that was on her brain.
David Lyons:
Any indication of a weapon or a mark? Or do you think it was just an open hand or closed fist or something?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Or we never found any indication, as well as we never found any evidence in the bedroom either.
Wendy Lyons:
And I guess when you were interviewing him, he hadn’t indicated putting any of these wounds on her, strangling her, choking her, hitting her in the head. Just nothing.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
He said multiple times, when specifically asked, “Where did the bruising come from?” He said multiple times, “I have no idea. She wasn’t like that when I left her in my bedroom. I came in and found her like that. I don’t know what happened.” And that’s part of the reason why we kind of pushed him on, “Could someone else have come in?” And he, “No, absolutely not.” And to kind of get back to that DNA, we did collect his DNA out of the victim. So he left DNA behind in the victim. So even the entire part about the sex being consensual, and he even specifically told us it was protected, that he had used a condom, and he told us even how he threw the condom wrapper away and how he threw the condom away, kind of one of those where, “I flushed it down the toilet, you can’t find it,” type incidents, even that part of his testimony wasn’t true, because we collected his semen out of the victim.
Wendy Lyons:
Wow. And to think that he recruited his younger brothers, some eight and 11 year olds, to partake in positioning her. That blows my mind. But aside of that, you mentioned her throat, where she had screamed so loud. Did no neighbors or the mom or boyfriend, no one claimed hearing that screaming?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Nobody said that they heard anything. And even when confronted with that, they still held to their claim that they didn’t hear anything.
Wendy Lyons:
And there’s no other logical reason as to what would cause that injury aside of that? It wasn’t strangulation.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, it was the medical examiner’s opinion that it was from screaming. There was also markings in the back of her throat as well from screaming, as well. If you scream really, really, really loud, you can actually damage the back of your throat as well as your vocal cords. And she had all of that evidence present.
Wendy Lyons:
Wow. So do you all make an arrest of him after that interview, or does some time go on before you have enough evidence to make an arrest?
David Lyons:
Let me jump before we get there, too. During the interview, what was his demeanor? And was he just being responsive or did he ask you all questions? Did you get an impression that he was trying to figure out? Was he running counterintelligence on you? Because some of them will do that. Was he inquisitive at all? What was his demeanor?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Like I said, from the time we got to scene, he was sitting right inside the door playing video games. And so his demeanor was pretty relaxed, pretty nonchalant about the entire thing. I can tell you, the image is seared into my memory. They were playing a basketball game on their PlayStation. I can remember that specifically, because when I walked in the house, I just thought, “How can you be so callous as to be here playing a video game when there’s a 14 year old passed away on your front porch, not 10 fee, from where your sitting?” And that attitude pretty much carried on through the first initial interviews until we showed him the picture of her. When we showed him the picture of her is when his demeanor changed. He let out some expletives and he looked away and he wouldn’t even look at the picture anymore. And that’s when we got the closest version to the truth that I felt like we were going to get.
Wendy Lyons:
Did he, at any time in that interview, say why? I guess I’m just puzzled by this. And I know initially he was saying that they just randomly found the girl on the porch, and we know that’s not true, but how do you go about just playing a game or even just sitting inside your house if you were to stumble on someone? I think if we were to walk out where we live and find someone on our porch, there would be all kinds of hysteria and you’re screaming and you’re freaked out and you’re not wanting to get off the phone with dispatch until somebody gets there because who is this and how in the world did they get there? But to go inside and play a game and everybody’s just going on like business as usual, do they not think that that alone would throw up so many red flags?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It was very unusual, and that’s one of the reasons we felt like the suspect was pretty close to what was going on in proximity, because it was just so unusual, the response to what had happened. And to give you some insight to exactly what you’re talking about, she had been put on the front porch hours earlier. It wasn’t until the suspect’s aunt came by to visit that 911 would get called. The suspect’s aunt comes by and the suspect walks out to the car and says, “Hey, Auntie, you have to see this.” And she thought he was referring to some pit bulls. They would breed pit bulls. So she thought, “Well maybe their dog had a lit of puppies.” She said, as soon as she got out of the car and saw Chelsea on the front porch, she knew she was deceased.
Wendy Lyons:
Hey, you know there’s more to this story. So go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us a five star review on Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. And please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.
Part 2 of 2:
David Lyons:
Warning. The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury. Listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons:
Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The Murder of Chelsea Hayes Part Two.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, David, now that our listeners have listened to part one of the Chelsea Hayes murder, why don’t you tell us what they can expect for part two.
David Lyons:
A lot more details. And there’s a lot of details to come, but here’s the big thing to listen to this, is to pay attention to how Daniel stayed involved and the lives of the families on both sides of the fence. It’s actually amazing. And it’s really moving. So with that, let’s just jump right back in and get into the interview and finish this case.
Wendy Lyons:
I guess I’m just puzzled by this. That if you were… And I know initially he was saying that they just randomly found the girl on the porch. And we know that’s not true, but how do you go about just playing a game, or even just sitting inside your house, if you were to stumble on someone. I think if we were to walk out where we live and find someone on our porch, there would be all kinds of hysteria and you’re screaming and you’re freaked out and you’re not wanting to get off the phone with dispatch until somebody gets there because who is this? And how in the world did they get there? But to go inside and play a game and everybody’s just going on like business as usual, I guess, do they not think… That alone would throw up so many red flags.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It was very unusual and that’s one of the reasons we felt like the suspect was pretty close to what was going on in proximity, because it was just so unusual, the response, to what had happened. And to give you some insight to exactly what you’re talking about, she had been put on the front porch hours earlier. It wasn’t until the suspect’s aunt came by eye to visit that 911 would get called. The suspect’s aunt comes by and the suspect walks out to the car and says, “Hey, auntie, you have to see this.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And she thought he was referring to some pit bulls. They would breed pit bulls. So she thought, well, maybe their dog had a litter of puppies. She said as soon as she got out of the car and saw Chelsea on the front porch, she knew she was deceased. So she goes up and confronts the suspect’s mother and says, you have to call 911. And the actual argument and physical struggle ensues over the phone and whether or not 911 will be called.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Another step that we take is we go pull all 911 calls that come in about any specific incident so that we can listen to them. Not only to what the caller is saying, but to see if we can identify anything in the background, or any other noises or anything that are going on. And on their 911 call, you can actually hear the argument. You have to talk to them. And the suspect’s mother saying, “I’m not talking to anybody. I’m not calling 911. I’m not…” And you can actually… It feels like it they’re fighting over the phone. And then finally you hear her say, “You have to.” And then the suspect’s mom says, “Hey, there’s some girl on our porch. We don’t know what’s going on.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And that was the 911 call. When I first listened to it, I didn’t exactly know what I was listening to. Then I interviewed the aunt, went back and listened to it again, and understood exactly what was going on, on the front end of that 911 call.
David Lyons:
So when he approaches the aunt, it’s more of a curiosity thing of, Hey, you’ve got to see this. That’s just bizarre.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It’s almost like a, Hey, you’re not going to believe this. And she said, he was just so nonchalant about it and just callous that she thought it was dealing with animals and or something else. She had no idea that he was referring to the girl that was on their front porch.
Wendy Lyons:
Were the eight and 11 year olds, were they hysterical that there’s a dead person on their porch?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
They seemed to be more in shock than anything else. They were pretty reserved as far as they just kind of sat still and almost just couldn’t believe what was going on. And by the time we get called, like I said, it was eight o’clock at night. Till the time we notified the family, get a positive identification. I mean, we’re talking about, we’re dragging on into Monday morning. I don’t think I went home until after lunch on Monday that day.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And so when we’re interviewing the kids and things like that, we’re getting into 11 o’clock night probably. Because we tried to interview the kids as early as we could so that we didn’t have them stay up too late. Because with the adults, you get into midnight or so it’s not as big of a deal. But we wanted to make sure and get those interviews completed and move on to the adults.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And the boys initially lied to us as well. They started off by telling us the same story that everybody else tried to tell us. And then when they were confronted, one, by the officers, Hey, we know that’s a lie. And two, we had their mom in the interview with them. And she told them, “Hey, they know it’s a lie. Tell them the truth.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then they came off of that story and told us pretty close versions. One of the boys describes watching Carlos move her, never describes actually helping her. One of the other brothers describes kind of helping. But according to Carlos’s testimony, all three of the boys helped.
Wendy Lyons:
Did the boys ever tell you that they were encouraged to tell that story, that they just found her there?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Oh yeah. And by the time we got around to that part and everybody dropped that story and actually began to tell the truth, they let us know, “Hey Carlos is the one that told us to lie.” And that was pretty consistent with everybody.
David Lyons:
And you may mentioned that when you were talking in that interview and you said that that was the closest you were yet, was that the last interview you had with Carlos or?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yes.
David Lyons:
So no other attempt was able to?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, we got that interview. And like I said, we felt like that was close to the truth, but not the complete truth, especially when you’re talking about the consensual sex and the protected sex.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
We did ask him to write out a statement. In that statement, he gets to the part of having sex and completely skips from there all the way till I woke up the next morning.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And so there was a huge time gap in there. And it’s not uncommon for people to leave a time gap when something bad happens. And so we felt like he had jumped over everything and we weren’t going to get any further with him by pushing him. We knew we had DNA, or the swabs that were collected that we would be sending off. We had gotten a DNA sample from him as well. And so we were just going to wait on those results before we tried to attempt any further interviews or anything else. Getting the DNA results back confirmed that his DNA was present in the victim’s body with. All of that, didn’t feel like we needed to do another interview.
Wendy Lyons:
So after the first interview, was he released or did you all take him into custody at that point?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, no, no, no, no. We brought him in. He never left our custody. So from the time we got to the house, we brought him in, we did an interview and told him he was lying. And we never left the room with him. Said, “Nope, that’s a lie. Try again.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then he is like, “Okay. Well actually, we had sex and she left.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
“Nope, that’s a lie. Try again.” And we literally just sat in the room with him and he gave us four different statements in one sitting.
Wendy Lyons:
Wow. So he was really trying his best to get away with. It sounds like.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
He was trying. And by this time, he had gotten a story together, got his whole entire family to try to lie for him. And had staged the crime scene to match the story that he had put together for the family.
Wendy Lyons:
So he gets taken into custody. And I guess, now, is protocol that the crime scene is now unsecure, or can family members still not return home?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So, one of the things that’ll happen is while we’re doing the interviews, we’ll also to type a search warrant. Although we have probable cause to be there at the scene, where they’re working on the immediate scene, we will type a search warrant to search the rest of the house. Just better safe than sorry. It’s one less thing you have to fight when you get to court. And honestly, in my opinion, it’s just the proper way to go about that process.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
I like to try to do things the same way every time. That way if an issue comes up or if you’re ever questioned about it, I know that I did steps one, two and three, because I always do steps one, two and three.
Wendy Lyons:
Sure.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So-
David Lyons:
And you know, search warrants… I was that same way too, because I used to watch other investigators in different sections play with consent and think that was enough. But the facts can change. You could get, for example, written or verbal consent from a subject, or feel like you don’t need it and then go get into a closet and find personal belongings where the expectation of privacy was there. So I’m with you on getting a search warrant. I was the same way. I cut paper every time. It’s the safest bet too.
Wendy Lyons:
So he’s placed in custody after that interview with you, when you finally get the closest version to the truth that you’re going to get. Family’s all released because you’ve gotten their statements. Now, I guess as a mother, my thought is this Chelsea’s poor mom, did you go speak with her first? Was that your job? And if so, how did that go?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
I did. It was myself and two other investigators. I was fairly new to the homicide unit at that time. One of the other investigators had been there for a couple of years. And so he kind of led that talk. Initially, we arrived and explained we were with the homicide unit. And that we were working on a case of a party who was deceased, who matched the description of their daughter. And again, tried to convey the idea that we think it may be her, but we’re not absolutely sure that it is her. So we’re going to need some more details from you to help us identify her. And from that conversation, we were fairly certain, it was in fact Chelsea, but we had them come down to the medical examiners’ office and meet us down there so that we could really kind of finalize that identification to say, in fact, yes, this is her or no, it is not her. And from that, we were able to say, yes, this is in fact her.
Wendy Lyons:
And I think what a lot of the audience… I’m sure most people who listen to our podcast are crime enthusiasts, but can you tell, as an investigator, how different it is than watching First 48 or Forensic Files, when you have to look at that victim’s mother and tell her that horrible news that she probably knows deep in her soul what you’re getting ready to tell her. Tell us how, when you walk away from that finally do get to go home after those 20 hour days, how bad did that wear on you?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
On a case like that, there’s a moment of sitting in the car alone and just trying to kind of collect yourself and gather yourself. When you are dealing with a victim’s family, you want to be as professional as possible, but you also want to be empathetic as well. But it’s hard because you can’t carry that stuff around with you all the time, because it will destroy you from the inside out. And so you have to figure out a way to release that stress. Thankfully for me, God has blessed me with an amazing wife. I’ve been able to talk to her about what I’ve seen, what I’ve been through. My father, like I said, he was a police officer. He’s since passed away. But at the time I was in homicide, he was still with me. And I was able to talk to him. And I had channels that I could kind of release some of the stress. But it’s one of the hardest things you’ll ever do.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It’s bad enough to approach somebody and have to tell them that a loved one has passed away, especially in the context of their life was taken. They were murdered. Somebody took their life. It’s an entirely different thing when you have to approach somebody and tell them not only was someone’s life taken, but it was a child, and it was your child. Especially having children of my own, there’re oftentimes when I think about like, how would I respond if somebody showed up and told me that one of my children had their life taken. And so I tried to convey my message in such a way that I was very understanding, but that I got the message across. Because I didn’t want to leave false hope that it’s probably not her.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Again, our position was, we think this is probably her, we just can’t say 100%. In the off chance that it’s not her, we want to find out as quickly as possible so that you’re not stuck with this burden of trying to see is this her, is this not her? We want to kind of get you the news good or bad as soon as possible. And it’s just a very difficult thing to navigate through.
David Lyons:
Along that same line, when you’re talking about meeting these people and these family members, and bringing them the worst news they would ever find. I always look at it as you’re representing that family member in a lot of ways. Did you ever start to feel a relationship or rapport build with those family members that was maybe a little deeper than other people in the community based on that?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And there was a different case I had worked, and one of the victim’s families came to the viewing of my father when he passed away. And that was probably one of the most special moments in my life as an officer, just knowing… They had just seen on the news that my father had passed away. They knew me because of the work I did with their family members’ case. And they took it upon themselves to come by the funeral home to see my family, just as a way of saying, thank you, really is what it was. And that really struck me deep down that I really enjoyed the investigations part of my career because I felt like I made a difference. Not just on the street, taking bad guys off the street, but I made a difference in the victim’s families where they could get closure. They could understand that we did everything we could to bring them that closure and to bring them that justice.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And I know it’s a crazy time that we live in right now, but I truly believe that if every police officer, not just investigations, every police officer would strive as hard as they could to bring that closure or that justice to every call they went on, that could lessen some of the tensions. Because even if you go to a call where people are not being cooperative, or people may not seem like they appreciate the work of the police. If you gave that a hundred percent effort at that call, just like you did on a call where someone was cooperative, or someone did appreciate the police, you could bring the same amount of closure to both groups of people.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And to me, that’s true equality and treatment, is when I strive my hardest, no matter what the roadblock are, to make sure that a family gets just… especially when you’re talking about homicides. Make sure that family gets justice, whether they cooperate or not. I’ve worked cases where the victim’s family wouldn’t necessarily even cooperate with us. But I still owe it to them to do everything I can to come to a resolution in that case.
David Lyons:
You make a good point too, as far as building relationships in the community. I was always big on that too. One of my favorite sergeants that I had the pleasure to work with was Sergeant Joe Dan [Famularo 00:16:50]. And he used to preach to his squads all the time to treat those calls like the most important call you’re going to that a day. Because for the people that you just arrived, it is. And I’m with you a hundred percent. I think that would just take our industry light years at a fast pace into if we could collectively come to that.
Wendy Lyons:
Well, and we’ve talked before David, not just on podcasts, but over the dinner table at home, how that case, even though I’m sure you, Daniel, had more cases coming in while this was going on with Chelsea. To that family, to that victim’s family, that’s the most important case. They don’t know, maybe they don’t know that you have other cases. They don’t realize that it just doesn’t stop there. And all the other cases until hers is solved is appointed to someone else. They’re still coming to you and your workload is heavy. But for that victim, that level of compassion and empathy is so important because, to them, the other cases don’t matter. That’s their victim.
Wendy Lyons:
And I think also, David, you had talked, not just on homicide victims, but David’s so compassionate to the homeless people in the community or people that have mental handicaps. He’s always so compassionate. And when he was still with the police department, he always would tell how you have to offer that compassion and that respect to those people, even though they are homeless. Or even though, maybe they are mentally challenged and would fight you in an instant.
Wendy Lyons:
And I just hope that the generation that’s doing this now, since David you’re retired, but I hope at least, sounds like you and your… I hope the rest of your guys, extend that to the people out in the community, because not everybody’s going to be likable. It’s such a sweet gesture that you put aside their feelings for you. And you’re still doing that job 110%.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So speaking of these things, I’ll bring it back to this case that we’re talking about. A year prior to this event, I was a patrol officer, and I gave Carlos a ride home to this very house because he was the passenger in a stolen car where I arrested the driver and got a gun off the driver. And he was 17 at the time. And he was a back seat passenger. So I gave him a ride home and dropped him off at the very house where a year later I would come work this homicide.
Wendy Lyons:
When you pulled up, did you remember that instantly?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, actually it was when I saw him is when I remembered it. So when I first pulled up, I didn’t really remember it. But then when I saw him, I was like, wait a minute. And then it was kind of like, I remember. Because I never got out of the car. I just pulled up, jumped out, opened the back door. It’s like, wait, I remember giving him a ride home. It’s like, come to think, this was the location I brought him to a year after this event of walking through the police… I had gotten promoted. I take it back. It was probably two years after. I had gotten promoted to Sergeant and got moved out.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So in our structure, investigators are not equal to sergeants, and in a lot of other departments, they are. I got promoted to Sergeant and got moved out and I got put on midnight shift. I’m walking through the main squad room in the department, and I see Carlos’s mother in the main squad room sitting down on one of our couches. And I call her name and she turns around and she sees me and she jumps up and she yells Francis and she runs over and gives me a hug. And I thought, well, I mean… By this point he had already pled guilty to the homicide. So he pled guilty. They ended up plea guilty to second degree murder and aggravated rape because the family didn’t want to go through the trauma of a trial.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So he had already been sentenced, knew he was in jail for 25 plus years. I’m thinking to myself, I just put one of your kids in jail for the good part of the rest of their life and here you are giving me a hug. And I start talking to her, and the two 11 year olds are now 13, and they had robbed somebody with a BB gun.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So I talked to the investigator and ask him, “Can I talk to the boys? I won’t talk about the case, anything like that.” And he, he says, “Yeah, absolutely.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So I pull them into my office for the patrol division and I talk to him. And basically, come to an agreement that if they will attempt to do something they’re interested in… One of them was interested in football. Another one was interested in basketball. So my thing was, you have to attempt to make the team. You can’t necessarily control whether you make the team or not, you can control your effort in trying to do that. So try to make the team, keep up your grades and don’t get arrested again. A year from now, I will take you to an NBA game on my dime. And I actually wrote it out on paper and signed it and gave them a copy of it.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And I stayed in contact with them for the next year. The day before we were supposed to go down to the NBA game, one of the boys got arrested for truancy. And I explained to his mom and I explained to him, it’s not that I don’t love you. It’s not that I don’t care about you. But you cannot go on this trip with us because we had standards in place. And I actually took his younger brother in his place. And I had a good friend of mine who had grown up in gangs, who had gotten completely out of that lifestyle, was now married, had kids and was actually a youth pastor at my church. I took him with me and we went down and we took the boys down. And I did part of that because I recognized that what they were going through was a result of what they had been through.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
So part of the decisions they were making stem back from the trauma. That’s not an excuse to do wrong, but it is an explanation for why they’re doing wrong. And I wanted to have some level of positive influence in their lives to see if we could kind of stem that tide and change that direction. So I have stayed in involved even with the suspect’s family from the time that this case has moved on.
David Lyons:
It’s a fantastic point because a lot of… Again, people from the outside don’t see this, but that victimization is a snowball. And it hits both sides of the fence, if you will. Because I remember meeting with so many parents of suspects and watching their hearts get broken. And they love their kids or they love their brother or sister, whoever it was. And they are suffering through this loss, not to the degree of somebody lost somebody, but their lives are destroyed. There’s a lot of trust that it’s been broken. They know that this loved one’s life is never going to be the same. And again, inside those families, I think we’re starting to recognize more and more that, that trauma ripples out inside of a family like that. And intervention is probably the next key on that, is to look at it and say, we know that there’s been a traumatic event inside the family. We need to get resources in there as soon as possible. Fantastic work. Fantastic.
Wendy Lyons:
So back to Miss Chelsea and her mother. What happens at this point? Like I said a few minutes ago, I can’t imagine, number one, her heart’s just been ripped out, but the confusion, because she just thought her daughter was in bed. Not only is it a shock losing your child, but she’s just probably so confused as to how last night she was there. And now, not only is she not there because the baby’s crying, but now somebody’s telling me that she’s a victim. I can’t imagine the level of confusion that lady must have been feeling. What ends up happening with her at that? How do you all offer support to her family?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
On our end, that’s one of the most difficult things, I think, about the investigation process, is I can offer the how in this case. I know I can trace from the time she left her house, who came and picked her up, how she met Carlos, how she got back to his house, even to a degree, how she was killed. I can’t necessarily offer the why. And so the family may be left with wondering why, even after on our end the case is closed.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
In the state of Tennessee, we do have victim services that are offered through the courts. And so once he’s charged… The Chattanooga police department now has a victim advocacy wing. And so we do a lot more of that in house. At the time, when I was in homicide, they would be passed off to the court system. And then the courts, the district attorney’s office, had a victim advocacy component. And then they were offered services, whether it’s counseling or assistance, whatever they needed, through that office in particular.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then you have the court case you still have to go through. And in Tennessee, the way our system works is, if someone’s charged, like we charged Carlos before he left the police department, we go take out warrants. Patrol takes him down to the jail. The warrants are served. He’ll be scheduled for a general sessions hearing. All that hearing does is establishes whether there’s probable cause or not to uphold the charges he’s been charged with. From there, a bond can be set and then it’ll go to grand jury. The grand jury will hear the case. They’ll either true bill it, or no bill it. In this case, they true bill it. So then it gets sent to state court.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
At that point, the negotiations began taking place. You have discovery hearings. If there’s suppression hearings, all of that stuff takes place during that process. And then it goes to trial. In this case, we went through the discovery hearings, which led to the plea deal. Because the evidence, I mean, DNA evidence is pretty solid evidence. So with that being there, there was just no way around his involvement in her homicide. So they chose to take the plea deal. And the family wasn’t in agreement with that because they didn’t want to have to go through all the trauma of hearing everything in open court. And I mean, at that point, you’re getting into showing photos of injuries and things like that. And so, the family just felt that it would be best to allow the plea deal and to go from there.
David Lyons:
Let me ask you this. In Tennessee, is that a death penalty state? Is it still available here?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yes. Yes. It’s still available. And this case does meet the criteria for that. Again though, the family just opted not to go through that. And that may have been one of the mitigating factors in accepting a plea deal as well, is taking that portion off the table.
David Lyons:
That’s what I thought probably happens. I know back home, that’s a big deal. And that’s the power of that potential penalty sometimes, is it moves the system along a little quicker. So that’s interesting. Was he the only one charged in the case or?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Yeah, as far as we can tell, from all of the testimony, and even from his testimony, they went into his bedroom together and were last seen together alone. And then when people began to wake up, she was dead in his bedroom. And that’s one of the things we pushed him on during his interview is, is it even possible that somebody else could have done something or had come in your room? And he said, no, absolutely not even possible.
Wendy Lyons:
During that trial, when he received his sentencing, did he keep sticking to the same story, the last one he gave you? Or did he ever give more detail about putting those physical injuries on her?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No. That was the last statement that he made about the case.
David Lyons:
When he pled, did he have to make any statements? Did the judge require any detail or anything like that?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No.
David Lyons:
What ended up being his sentence?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
He got 25 years because they ended up pleading to second degree homicide and the aggravated rape charges. So he’s on the Sexual Offenders Registry and 25 years to serve.
David Lyons:
Is that a true calendar 25? Because in Kentucky, a lot of people don’t know the average life sentence is seven. It shocks people. It’s one of those things I think needs to be improved upon. But does he have a parol eligibility before that 25, do you think?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Oftentimes in Tennessee, there is eligibility at around 30 to 50% of sentence served. So I recently looked it up and he is still in custody and we’re coming up on eight and a half years after the event.
David Lyons:
Daniel, fantastic, fantastic detail on that case.
David Lyons:
And more importantly, I think what I’m appreciative is the interpersonal level that you took it to. Because again, one of our goals in our podcast is to let listeners who are interested in this line of work, understand the personal aspect of it. Because TV and Hollywood, puts a different cast on this. And most of the time it’s not even accurate. And a couple TV shows get close, but everybody still misses that ball. So thanks for doing that.
David Lyons:
You know, this case didn’t go to trial, and probably was pled for all the right reasons. I would argue and agree with that completely. But had it gone to trial, can you tell the audience what it’s like to testify in one of these high level cases where everything in balance means so much. You talked about being an advocate for victims families and the trust that comes, and the rapport it builds, which is a huge responsibility.
David Lyons:
What’s it like to testify in a case like this? And what do you bring to that? How do you approach it? What do you do to make it easier on yourself? Just tell the audience a little bit about some of that.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
For starters, not every case plays out the same way. So in this case, it was pled with a plea deal of guilty. Other cases, as it works its way through the trial system, you have that general sessions where there’s a brief testimony. Then there’s grand jury, where evidence is presented. A lot of times that’s just reading directly from the case file. You’re not cross-examined or anything like that. Then when you move into that next stage where you have suppression hearings and discoveries, there may be two or three different times when you’re called to testify in connection to the case, leading up to the actual trial.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And different victims families approach things differently. Some victims families want to be there for every single court appearance, and every single hearing. Other families only want to be there for the main trial. So you weave and wind your way through all of that. And you get to the actual trial.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Preparing for the trial, I normally spend several days reading over my case file, just refreshing myself, my memory on what happened when it happened, how things played out during the investigation. Because when you get up there on the stand, for me, it’s intensely nerve-wracking because I do take our court systems very seriously. It may not be absolutely perfect, but it’s the best system that’s been put forth to date.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And with that, when I stand up there and I swear that I’m going to tell the truth, I take that very seriously. And when you get up there, you get sworn in and you start laying out the case. You would have already had a meeting with the prosecution. And they kind of give you an idea of where they’re trying to go with the case and kind of guide as far as the elements of events for your testimony. And they have some questions they’ll answer you. And you’ll go through all of their list of questions and answer those in relation to the evidence that you had.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
One of the things that really helped me out with that was I took a one day class on courtroom testimony and it changed my perception of my role in the courtroom. And that is, I am not for the prosecution or against the defense attorney. I simply am the state’s representative in the collection point of the evidence. And so I’m just representing the evidence of the story that unfolded. And that’s what I’m there to do, is I’m there to lay that out.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
It’s the prosecutor’s job to lay that out in such a way that he gains a conviction. Or the defense attorney’s job to defend that in such a way that they get an acquittal. I’m simply just there to explain the evidence, how it was collected, how the timeline we’re able to put together comes out. So as you go through that, you may be on the stand for several hours. Me personally, thankfully I have an ability to remember things. And so I’ve been on the stand several times for several hours at a time. I bring a copy of my case file with me, but I personally don’t have to look at my case file or reference it. I’ve reviewed it leading up to that. Generally, memory serves me pretty well. And I’m able to answer questions and go through details without having to look up different things. I know there are some people that may have to refer to their case notes or look up specific things, because there can be so many details involved.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
In the state of Tennessee, as the lead detective, you can actually represent the entire case. And so you can represent what other investigators learned in interviews or collected. And those details in particular can get lost sometimes if you’re asked about them on the stand. And that’s the reason some officers have to kind of look through things, is if you’re asking me about what somebody else did, that can become very hard to try to answer with without referring to their work and what they did.
David Lyons:
So I guess, does that make it less intimidating to be able to have a mindset and a heart set when you come and take the oath and sit down? Has it helped you with that?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
I think it’s still intimidating, especially the first time. The first time is one of the hardest times. Because to be honest with you, even as a patrol officer, you don’t testify that much, even at the general sessions level. When you get into that courtroom setting, where there’s a jury, that’s actually seated. There’s an audience. There’s the judge, the prosecution, the defendant, the defense attorneys. It’s a lot of pressure. As you do that two or three times, the fact that you’re there isn’t as much pressure. But the fact that this is a very serious proceeding, that pressure remains no matter how many times you do it.
David Lyons:
Gotcha. And you talked about doing that a few times and getting more adjusted to it. Did you ever get a sense that some of the defense attorneys, at least the ones that worked in your community frequently, did they start to recognize your capabilities? Did you build a rapport with them that was more professional, do you think? Because I think that’s a result of that too. Was that an experience of yours?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Absolutely. One in particular comes to mind where he and I had a conversation. And he told me, “So when I see your name on a case, I know it’s either completely rock solid or it’s just probable cause because, basically, you were told to fill out paperwork.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
He’s like, “But when I see your name on a case,” he said, “there’s no question about it.” He said, “Immediately, I start thinking, we should probably take a plea deal.”
David Lyons:
Doesn’t sound like TV and movies, does it?
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
No, no. It’s not at all. And to be honest, you can’t go into the courtroom and take those things personally. Even to the degree, if your evidence is not solid, the defense attorney will attack your evidence. They’ll attack your case. Remember, their goal is to defend their client. If your evidence is rock solid, it’s fairly common for them to begin to attack you, or attack things around the case.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Because how I respond to that, the jury begins to look at me and they may or may not have questions about my work ethic or how I do things or why I did them, based on how I’m responding to somebody attacking me right there in open court. And so it’s just one of the ways to kind of go, “Oh, well, the case is solid, but maybe we can cause doubt in the officer’s work or the investigator’s work if we go directly at them.”
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And it’s not a personal thing. I’ve had that happen before. And the defense attorney, I know them, I know they’re doing their job, or at least trying to do their job for their client. And you just have to be able to walk out of there and understand that what happens isn’t personal on the investigation side. And it’s not personal me against the defendant either. I simply responded to a call, collected evidence, presented that evidence to the court system. It’s the jury’s decision, at the jury trial, whether they’re innocent or guilty.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
And then if they’re found guilty, it’s the judge’s decision, and he has guidelines he has to follow. But it’s the judge’s decision what the punishment for that is. So I can’t walk out of there and hang my head if somebody’s found innocent. That was the jury’s call. I can’t walk out of there and hang my head if he’s not given as long as a sentence as I think he should be. That’s the judge’s call. My piece of the puzzle is simply to testify to the evidence that’s being presented.
David Lyons:
What a great, great perspective. Well, thank you very much for having us. And I know it was a fun road trip. We hadn’t been Chattanooga in a while.
Wendy Lyons:
It was great.
David Lyons:
So it was great. And thanks to the Chattanooga Police Department, because I’ve met a handful of people from down here and you all are in great shape for a city. It’s a fantastic PD. And you can tell by the quality of your work and your passion for that, is I’ve got all the faith in the world to… Wendy, anything you wanted to add?
Wendy Lyons:
No, I just wanted to, I guess, kind of piggyback on what you said. And thank you, Daniel, for the tireless work that you put in to this case on Chelsea Hayes. And again, it’s nice that you dug in and told about how those emotions come into play, because I think oftentimes people don’t realize how you all may wear this on your sleeve and try your best to put on that cape tomorrow and go back to work like it doesn’t bother you. And it’s one of those jobs that at the end of the day it truly just doesn’t end because you’re not at work right now. So thank you for all that you do. And thank you so much for taking time away from your wife and children to spend with us to talk about this case. And keep doing the great job you’re doing. It’s people like you that the communities really, really need.
Lieutenant Daniel Francis:
Well, thank you much for having me on. I had a great time being here with you and sharing with you.
David Lyons:
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten.
David Lyons:
This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
David Lyons:
If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us a five star review on Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. And please tell your friends.
David Lyons:
Lock it down, Judy.
Daniel Francis unfortunately did not do a very good examination of this case. CJH didn’t kill the poor girl. Everyone knows the killer was CJH’s baby mamma who came to sleep with CJH that night and found that poor girl in his bed. She beat her to death and fled the state. CJH didn’t want to snitch on his baby mama, so he made up a story. Sad story. 😔