The Murder of Haley McHone | Show Notes

Part 1 of 3:

The Murder of Haley McHone Part 1 | © The Murder Police Podcast 2021

[00:00:00] David: Warning the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury listener discretion is advised.

Wendy: Welcome to the murder police podcast!

 (Intro music plays)

David: So Wendy, what do we have for the show?

Wendy: Well, David, today, we’re going to be discussing the 1999 murder out of Lexington, Kentucky involving a 13 year old victim named Haley McHone.

David: It’s actually a fascinating case. And while I was in the unit, I got to work on that case. I still remember being on [00:01:00] vacation the week that she went missing. And for the first time in my career, I couldn’t wait to get back to work, to get involved with it. What was the most fascinating thing about this case that peaked your interest?

Wendy: Oh, man, I think when you first told me about. This case I hadn’t heard of it until you had told me, but, you know, I instantly went out and found the book that told more about it because I wanted to get more details.

And as you know, the guy’s name’s Tommy Lynn sells and surprisingly Haley was not his first victim.

David: And it wasn’t his last, you’re right. He was, he was a serial killer. And there’s so much to the story that I think the listeners that are going to enjoy a lot, who all do we have on the panel today when we discuss this case.

Wendy: Joining us  today is Chris Schoonover, retired homicide detective, as well as the district attorney that handled the case. Ray, the DA Larson.

David: Fine people, I’ve known them for years. Chris was probably one of the most talented interviewers I’ve ever known. I had the pleasure to work with. He was amazing in the box when we were talking to suspects and Ray Larson, [00:02:00] effectually known as Ray, the DA.

Wendy: He is an amazing man. And I think people are going to be impressed with his knowledge of the process and how the court system works and explaining that here shortly.

David:  With that said, let’s go ahead and jump into the interview

Wendy: and let’s do.

Hey, Chris, thank you for joining us. How are you today?

Chris Schoonover: I’m doing well, thank you for having me.

Wendy:  And Ray?

Ray Larson: I’m just tap dancing.

Wendy: David, how are you doing over?

David: Doing fantastic. I’m excited to go through this one. This was amazing case to

be a part of withwith Chris.

Wendy: Chris, why don’t you start with telling us a little bit about yourself?

Chris Schoonover: Okay. Since I’m really old, I’ll start with my military career.

So it doesn’t take me all the way back to infant stage where the Moses, um, I was in the United States army and I, uh, while I was in there in the United States army. Uh, was a criminal investigator, especial agent with the criminal investigative division. We investigate felonies, all the felonies that were associated with the military and the us government.

We also had investigations off the military base if they had a nexus to the [00:03:00] government. Uh, then I left the military and got hired by the bureau of prisons, where I was assigned to the special investigative section where we investigated inmates. Wouldn’t have a plot to escape. We would investigate any type of scams that the inmates came up with with family members.

We’d listened to their phone calls, uh, look into their bank accounts. And, uh, we also, if we had rumor that family members were bringing in narcotics into the facility, we call canine and do those types of investigations. Well, I was with the bureau of prisons. Um, I applied with the Lexington police department and got hired in 19 96, 3 weeks.

After my probationary period, I got moved up to homicide and was assigned to David Lyons. And that’s how we.

Wendy: Wow. A lot of experience there. I don’t think that we’re going to get much by you. Well, Chris, what is this case about this Haley

McHone?

Chris Schoonover:  This case is a unique case because it’s mid America, typical [00:04:00] 13 year old rebellious teenager.

And of course middle-class parents reported their child missing and. That Lexington police department used every resource and trying to locate her. Uh, we did posters. We did door knocks, neighborhood canvases, met people in the park at the same time. We thought she went missing. Uh, we used all our resources and got nowhere.

It was, it was, uh, quite an experience to do this investigation with other detectives and use all the resources we could to.

Wendy: Wow. So has this case been the subject of any other true crime reporting?

Chris Schoonover: Yes. I spend several major networks. I’ve done, uh, several stories on the suspect and there’s been a couple of books that have been written about the suspect.

Wendy: Okay.

Well, where in, when did this homicide occur?

Chris Schoonover: This homicide occurred, uh, in Lexington, Kentucky and Fayette county. Uh, it was off of,anybody knows where the university of Kentucky [00:05:00] is located, of course the basketball Mecca of the world, but it’s just a, several, several blocks off of the main campus, a main thoroughfare that goes through there.

It’s called Nicholasville road. Her family lived a couple of blocks. Illis off of Elizabeth Park, their house backed up to the park. She was reported missing by a family member. From floral park and then Elizabeth Park is right behind their house. So that’s, that’s where it occurred.

Wendy: Okay. So can you tell us about, about Haley?

I know   she’s 13. What more can you tell us about it?

Chris Schoonover: Sure.

If you can think of a typical 13 year old smoking rebellious teenager, that’s wants to do everything opposite that her parents want her to do. That’s Hailey. She was a frequent runaway. And what I mean by runawayis her family was middle class, but they like any other family had hidden secrets.

They had issues with other relatives that nobody knew and to escape that [00:06:00] Haley would get on her bike, which became very important. In the case later, she would get on her bike and she would ride across town or to a friend’s house and stay overnight across town. I’m talking. A grandparent and she would stay overnight and not tell her parents.

So they would report her missing because of course there’s truancy laws. And if she didn’t show up to school the next day, her parents would be in trouble. So they would report her

missing.

Wendy: So this wasn’t really untypical. That she was missing yet again?

Chris Schoonover: No, they did. What any other parent would do. They waited several hours and they reported her missing and days went by and that’s when all of us, including David, we started using our resources, posters.

We even use family members to help us hang posters on telephone poles and storefronts. We would con we do door knocks, neighborhood canvases is what we call them. And. We kind of discovered that we weren’t doing neighborhood canvasses correctly until David came up with a [00:07:00] method that since it was a college campus, we forgot that when we talked to somebody at the front door, they’re not the only people living in that house.

So we started revamping the forms and say, how many people live in this home? How many cars are parked here? Normally, what are the hours that people are working or coming back and forth to school? Normally, we would knock on that door and say, did you hear anything unusual? Have you seen anything unusual?

Any cars look out of place, but this changed our whole approach on doing neighborhood canvases to try to locate Haley. 

Wendy: Yeah. He’s pretty good about changing things to fit his agenda usually.

 And they’re good for the most part.

Chris Schoonover:  Sure. He got promoted through the ranks. He, he knows what he’s doing.

Wendy: Well, so I guess, take us back to the beginning.

When… did you just get a call? Is it just typical that your phone rings and somebody says, Hey, there’s a missing child. What, what were you doing? And how did you first find out about this?

Chris Schoonover: In the homicide unit in Lexington, I’ll give you a little background about the way things are done. [00:08:00] Usually a detective is on call, at that time, it was for seven days during the week. And that doesn’t mean the person or the detective on call actually is going to be lead in that investigation. They get the original call. They make an assessment of the call, how many people are needed. And at that time we had a rule:  all the , homicide detectives are gonna respond.

So we got called because it was just early in the evening, late afternoon, 4 35. Uh, we got a call that a body was found by a young boy walking his dog, and the dog led the young boy over to a smell. The young man and the dog went back to his father and the father came back and noticed the smell. So he contacted the police and that is when, uh, we responded and discussed.

Discovered that it was Haley McHone and that was 10 days later after she was reported missing. Prior

Wendy: to this, you’re just thinking you’re looking for still a missing child and we’re just still looking and she still hasn’t come back and nobody’s seen her?

Chris Schoonover: Right. We don’t know if [00:09:00] this is Hayley.

Wendy: So, at this point you’re just still searching for her.

And now a call comes in that, Hey, there’s a body. . So you go there or where did you actually go there? Or how did that happen?

Chris Schoonover: Right. So the on-call detective is going to be the lead detective for that time.

Wendy: For 7 days?

Chris Schoonover:  Right? Because they are going a lot of things happen simultaneously. You have to have somebody at the crime scene to guide the forensic services unit in case you need them to collect something.

He also, or she also has to make the decision. Who needs to be called the corner, anybody from KSP with a lab, if you would like, uh, for instance, we did use Emily Craig who’s world-renowned and pathology, and she came and helped us collect evidence. So the person needs to decide. Emily or KSP also any of the supervisors that need to be notified because that’s very important.

And all [00:10:00] the other detectives get assigned a job neighborhood canvas. Uh, like I said,

Ray Larson: Chris, let me ask you a question. You say her body was found 10 days after reported missing and, uh, an odor took the dog to the, to that spot. What kind of a. Uh, condition is a body in after it’s been, uh, dead and exposed for 10 days?

Chris Schoonover: That’s an interesting question. What happens is depending on the temperature of the surrounding area of body can go through various stages of decomposition, depending on also the environment with the animals, maggots flies. If you have coyote. Any kind of wild dogs that walk through the woods, they can drag body parts, any kind of evidence.

They can drag that away. Now, going back to the heat or the temperature sometimes if it’s colder than the body decomposes slower. So it’s very interesting. And again, [00:11:00] I’ll save that for Emily Craig, if you ever have her on your show, she uh. We’ll collect those maggots. And what’s very interesting is she can freeze those maggots.

And from what stage those maggots are in growth, she can approximate how long the body has been placed there or laying in that place.

David: Can you talk more about, uh, specifically where her body was found and what kind of conditions were there at that site?

Chris Schoonover: Sure. So in Kentucky, in the month of May, it becomes very hot.

Anytime after April, you’re going to get heat and it is in a wooded area there at the back of that park. Uh, there’s tall trees hedges, and there’s also a railroad track that runs through that neighborhood. At the rear of that park, there is a trail, a walking trail there, dirt. Dead trees laying on both sides of the, of the trail.

And when we got to the scene, there were a dead leaves, a log. And until you move the  leaves, you could not see Haley’s [00:12:00] body at all. So once that was left and moved, Then you could see that. Of course maggots had been involved the stage of decomposition, but you could tell that there was no shirt and just her shorts, were on her.

Wendy: So you get there and you go to this walking trail and you see the body there. And what, what do you do at that point? Did, did a light bulb go off in your head and you think maybe this is her because I know she lives right there. Or were you just thinking this is another victim in 1999?

Chris Schoonover: Right. Regardless of what people think about detectives, uh, common sense.

It really plays into a huge part of what we do. So yeah, you can assume anything because your final goal is to make this a proper scene to follow all the rules because you want a conviction.. In the case at the very end. So you want to follow the [00:13:00] rules very carefully. So you’re not going to assume it’s Haley, but we have a good feeling.

I mean, common sense. Her house backs up to this park, she’s been missing. We haven’t had any other reports of missing females since Haley’s been missing. And of course we start going and asking the family, give us some particulars. Does she have tattoos? Does she have any broken bones? Because when that body goes to autopsy, they’re going to know any kind of scar tissue and it kind of bones that have been broken and re healed and he kind of dental work, um, any kind of, anything like that that can identify it marks on her.

Wendy: Any distinguishing marks on her.

Chris Schoonover: Yes

Wendy:  So you got there and there’s this female. And then what, what did you do?

Chris Schoonover: Well, we called the rest of the homicide detectives in, and we. decided who would do what and what’s great about the homicide unit that Dave and I was in is you knew who had what strengths. Some people were better at writing search warrants [00:14:00] and, and getting ways into a house.

Some people were better at reading crime scenes, knowing what evidence is needed to be picked up. And some people are just better at interviewing and walking the neighborhood and talking to family members and explaining to , for example , Hailey’s family that we aren’t sure who this is yet, but can you help us give us some background?

Because remember at the beginning of the show, I said it was very important that she would ride this bike. There was no bike there.

Wendy: Oh, okay. So you, so you coordinate all that and then what do you, then what happens next? You sent her to  uh, pathologist…

Chris Schoonover: Well, yeah, we went in to talk to her parents and asked her all those questions.

I mentioned previously, then the forensic services unit, we have to sit there and make sure we don’t make sure we assist them in any kind of information we get from the neighborhood, any new information, so they know what they’re looking for. And we stay at that scene. All the homicide detective stay at [00:15:00] that scene in case there’s anything that needs to be done and we need to go elsewhere and start interviewing people. Once the scene is processed and it’s time to move that body. Now I’m not talking an hour, two hours. It takes if you’re doing a crime scene, right. It takes anywhere from 24 hours. And with respect to the deceased person. It takes 24 hours or more to process that crime scene.

Wendy: So that was a long, long day. Wasn’t it?

Chris Schoonover: Yes. Out there all night, actually, uh, dealing with some of the media because the media liked to go on the railroad tracks and find other ways in, and, and the crime scene was taped off, but you have to remember, there’s always an avenue if they want to get into a scene.

So we were, we were making sure that was taken care of and we were making sure all witnesses were coveredif there were any.

Ray Larson: Why do you protect the scene from the media. Why, why do you do that?

Chris Schoonover: Well, I can give you a quick reason and now I’ll give you what we would [00:16:00] suspect. The right reason is because anybody that comes into that crime scene that doesn’t have protective garments on i.e. booties, jumpsuits gloves; is going to contaminate that crime scene. And that’s a great way for a defense attorney to go ahead and find a leak in your, in your investigation. So we don’t want anybody that doesn’t belong in that crime scene in that crime scene. The second. It sells news and gives you those ratings. So they want in there to boost those ratings.

And that’s not what it’s about. 

Ray Larson: I understand. How do you have any feel any obligation to protect what’s going on? Because subsequently, you know, you’re going to be a witness.

Chris Schoonover: Absolutely.

Ray Larson: And there’s going to have to be a trial.

Chris Schoonover: Absolutely. And, and a great example is if the forensic services unit is taking photographs and in the background, you see shoes or a camera that’s laying on a railroad track.

Defense. Attorney’s going to pick that up and they’re going to [00:17:00] ask, well, who is this detective? And that’s a terrible thing to be on the stand and answer those questions.

David: Let me throw in too. It’s important. And people listening understand, it’s just not the media we didn’t allow in, but when you’re talking abouteverybody from homicide being in there how many people from homicide went in that seen that day?

Chris Schoonover: Two people, that’s it.

That’s all we allow.

David: All right. So it’s not just a thing with a media. It’s nobody

Chris Schoonover: goes that’s right. That’s correct. And you’ve experienced something Mr. Larson. You come up and you ask for a briefing, but you don’t ever ask to be toured back there because you know, the end result

Ray Larson: Well I know Tim Russell, who was a great, uh, forensic, uh, guy for the police department would chew me out , and he has!

Wendy: So, so at this point you’re still processing in this person is still there. So when you get it processed and everything’s completed. And then the deceased is sent to be examined. [00:18:00] What happens then? Do you just wait, do you, what, what happens then?

David: You might want to talk about, does somebody from the unit go to the autopsy and why are they there and how what’s that look like when that happens?

Chris Schoonover: Yes. So, as I said before, the on-call detective and the lead detective, usually we’ll go to Frankfort whenever the body is escorted up there, um, they will attend the autopsy. They take notes at the autopsy. Uh, they also assist forensic services unit if there’s a question, because remember you’re getting information constantly from other detectives from even forensic services, Hey, we found a knife or we found a gun. So you want to see if there’s any of those types of wounds on the body. So while you’re getting that information, you’re also assisting them and letting them know. Now the medical examiner also wants to know a brief background of what happened, you know, where was she found?

Uh, what do we know about the case? So you need to be there to give the medical examiner, the [00:19:00] background.

Wendy: So the autopsy was performed,at this point, you still don’t know it’s her or do you suspect it’s her?

Chris Schoonover: No. We do not know it’s her. That’s a long process in itself. So we’re still going to investigate, like she’s a missing person, but we also want to treat it like it’s a homicide and it may be her it’s confusing, but yes, that’s the way you have to approach the situation.

Ray Larson: So the medical examiners job is to do what?

Chris Schoonover: Determine the cause and manner of death.

Ray Larson: And was that done?

Chris Schoonover: Yes, it was

Ray Larson: and, do you know what the cause and manner of death of Haley McHone?

Chris Schoonover: It was strangulation. It was murder.

Ray Larson: You’re looking for particular injuries in strangulation, uh, I guess, and. Were you there at the autopsy?

Chris Schoonover: I was

Ray Larson:  Did they find that they find those kinds of injuries to the throat?

Chris Schoonover: It was consistent. Yes. Uh, it was very [00:20:00] difficult. And her stage of decomposition, uh, medical examiner did a great job in assisting us in that.

David: Would that be something that you release to the media to do we do, uh, police usually talk about that or

Chris Schoonover: No, they don’t.

That’s a very important part. And the reason we don’t talk about that is because. In the homicide unit, several, uh, of us. And it’s, uh, it’s probably should be made a regulate or a rule you would say to have people with informants information. So to make sure that you’re getting the honest and right information, even from a witness, if they come forward, you want to be able to know that those witnesses that gives you that information is actually true. And the only way to know that is to keep some of the information, you know, that only the person that murdered that victim and you know, that that’s true.

Wendy: Well, when you saw this victim lying there, I’m assuming there were, did you know, at [00:21:00] that point, were you thinking, well, this is strangulation or are there any visible knife wounds or gunshot wounds?

Or are you just thinking, well, they’re just laying there. There’s no visible wounds. What could have happened. There has to be foul play if it’s under a law. Right, right.

Chris Schoonover: Based on what you, the way she was positioned, we knew it was probably a homicide, but again, you want to be safe because anything you document, anything you say will come back later on if it goes to trial.

So what we did is, uh, we always base it on what the medical examiner says and what the death certificate says from the coroner.

Wendy:  So you are still you’re attending this autopsy and you don’t know this as her, but maybe you think kind of is?

Chris Schoonover: Sure, sure. We do. And so we go back to the neighborhood, talk to the parents and start getting a list of Haley’s friends.

And then from the interviews of the friends, we start backtracking what she was doing 10 days, because we don’t [00:22:00] know. Remember, we don’t know when the murder occurred yet. So we have to get at least 10 days of timeline of what Haley McHone has,has done.

Wendy: What did you find out from the friends?

Chris Schoonover: That they hadn’t seen her, that she hadn’t been at school. We went through her locker and brought her books back and they had no answers for us. They hadn’t seen her.

Wendy: So were you positive at this point? This was her that you attended the autopsy on?

Chris Schoonover: No, it takes several that’s one thing I wanted to explain to people. It’s not like you see on TV where at a commercial break, you’re going to get DNA results on your victim.

It takes anywhere from six to nine months to get definite confirmation of who your victim.

Wendy: Wow. Okay. So you’re processing this murder. Someone that you maybe as her, but you don’t know, but then you’re also still looking for as a missing child.

Chris Schoonover: Right.

Wendy: So then what happens?

Chris Schoonover: So we get information from, uh, well, let me back up.

We go to [00:23:00] some services that they have in the park, hoping that we may see somebody suspicious there because they’re having a ceremony for Haley.  They’re assuming it’s her. And so we have all homicide detectives out kind of mingling, watching on the outskirts for anybody suspicious. So we start taking photographs of people we want to interview, we start taking license plate numbers, and we start knocking on college kids doors more because now we want to start taking DNA just in case later, if she was sexually assaulted or there’s DNA on her clothing that she has left on that we want to have some type of evidence to compare that to.

So that’s, that was our next step. We started asking people if they would even provide a swab of their DNA.

Wendy: Were they open to that?

Chris Schoonover: Some were. Yes. It was surprising. Yes. And I think Lexington, the community. Really wants answers [00:24:00] to, if they know a teenager has been harmed, they’re going to do whatever they can for the community to, to determine who did this, who committed this crime and those that don’t worry.

They don’t have a problem with providing their DNA.

Wendy: So you go canvassing the area, the dorms, and did anything turn up?

Chris Schoonover: Nothing. We, we even put out on social media that she was last seen in this area and we made new posters and we added the bike to the posters because we didn’t have a bike. So. We were trying to look for the bike too, in hopes that would have evidence on it, DNA evidence.

Wendy: Sure.

Chris Schoonover: And, uh, so we even put posters up with a bike, hoping that somebody would call Crimestoppers. Somebody, some student from school may have information. So we would go to schools, hang a poster up. We still had no responses.

Wendy: Still beating your head against a wall.

Chris Schoonover: Yes.

Wendy: So how long did that go on that you had nothing?

Chris Schoonover: Several months.

Actually, we kept [00:25:00] investigating this  case probably half a day, every day, we concentrated on Haley’s case alone. And remember, we’re also getting other cases in because this happened in May and now several months have gone by and we don’t have anything, uh, all the resources we’re using with KSP lab, with the FBI, we’re calling a thing called VICAP  and that’s the Violent Crime Apprehension Program.

We’re giving them information to see if they have any like murders and any place across the country that they can compare it to.

David:  Can you talk more about VICAP and what that’s like, how, when you’re talking about giving information, how does that happen and how often does that happen?

Chris Schoonover: Yeah. Thank you, Dave.

I made it sound easy, but it’s really a thick book that you have to fill out. Um, it talks about the victim and they that’s, what’s called a victimology and they kind of rate what type of victim,she would be a high risk, medium risk or low risk. You give them all the background on her family members, on her [00:26:00] friends.

You fill out, um, in detail, what the crime scene looked like, um, what her grades were anything about the victim, and then you provide all details about the crime scene so they can compare that crime scene. with others across the country. Now we used to joke and say all information in nothing coming out.

Because once you send that book in, you don’t hear from the FBI unless something similar. So it’s, it’s a good program, but if they don’t have anything similar, you’re not gonna get any information back.

David: It’s probably the best shot at police agencies coordinating with each other on major crime. Cause that’s a big criticism sometimes is that I said, I’ve always thought that that’s probably the best shot.

You’ve got at picking up on a serial offender.

Chris Schoonover: Right. It was before then it was more archaic where you would go to a conference, talk to other detectives, pass each other card. Hey, do you have this type of crime? Hey, this is the issues we’re seeing. And that with VICAP, that saves you all that problem. And then you can just go to happy hour at the conventions instead of worrying about [00:27:00] networking.

Wendy: Instead of worrying about those pesky details.

Chris Schoonover: Right.

Wendy: So you, you submit all this data and you wait and you wait. So now how long have you been waiting before, well, before you find out it’s affirmatively her and before you get a break?

Chris Schoonover: We find out it’s her in November.

Wendy: So months?

Chris Schoonover: 1999. Yes.

Wendy: Wow.

David: But, we’re working on the assumption. That’s her the whole time. It’s not like it’s

Chris Schoonover: Correct.

David: Can you recall, were there any kind of leads, even small ones coming into that time or anything that generated that?

Chris Schoonover: Well, So you have to think about suspects at that point. When you have this kind of crime scene. Now we have to think about suspects and at the beginning from your crime scene that day forward, everybody’s a suspect that knows Hailey McHone.

So the next thing we want to do since we’re not receiving any information is principle theory usually is let’s start with family members and work our way. Because family members know Hayley, right?

Wendy: Sure.

[00:28:00] Chris Schoonover: So we do a family background. We start looking at all the family members and there is some suspect and a family member tree.

And we interview extended family probably three or four times because we really feel like this may be the person he gives us signs during the interviews that he’s hiding something. We don’t know what it is. So we still want to go at him. So we’re gonna work around him since he’s not being forthcoming with his information.

So we’re going to go ahead and check out all warrants. We’re going to find out where he lived. If he didn’t live in Lexington, we’re going to find out any history we can. If it’s out of it. We’re going to try to find any information we can use during an interview that makes him uncomfortable so much so that he wants to get us off his chest and away from his house or out of the interview room, whichever place we interview and nothing,

Wendy: nothing,

Chris Schoonover:  not a thing.

Wendy: He was cleared?

Chris Schoonover: I think before we could decide he was cleared. Other [00:29:00] things happened in the case that started moving the case forward very rapidly.

Wendy: So you interview this person, extended family member. And then when did your break come? How long after something  present itself?

Chris Schoonover: January in 2000.

Wendy: Wow.

Chris Schoonover: Yeah. Happy new year.

 (Outro music begins to play)

Wendy: Hey, you know, there’s more to the story.

So go download the next episode. Like the true crime fan that you are.

David: The murder police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims, so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcasts can be found on your favoriteApple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook and Instagram. I

f you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us a five-star review on Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. And please tell your friends,

[00:30:00] Lock it down, Judy!

© The Murder Police Podcast 2021

Part 2 of 3:

David:

Warning the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury, listener discretion is advised.

Wendy:

Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. (MUSIC)

David:

Hey Wendy, where did we leave off on this case?

Wendy:

Oh, when we left off, we were about to learn who Haley’s killer was. When did your break come? How long after something present itself?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

January in 2000.

Wendy:

Wow.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yeah. Happy new year.

Wendy:

Happy new year. What happened? Tell us about this big break.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, again, my luck since I’m the lone man in totem pole, I had to go in the office on new year’s day.

Wendy:

It was your week again, [inaudible 00:01:20]?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

It was. Our Sergeant, Mark Barnard received a call from Texas. It was the rangers. He had previous encounters, again, not by cat, but his networking I’m sure. The Texas Rangers called and said that they had arrested a suspect and that he mentioned that he was in Kentucky and that there was a murder in Lexington, Kentucky that he would like to talk to us about.

Wendy:

Wow.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yeah, it was great.

Wendy:

So kind of told on himself?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes. I wouldn’t say in a legal term that’s telling on yourself, but you know he has something to get off his chest.

Wendy:

He knew something.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Right.

Wendy:

What do you do then? Do you just start rubbing your palms together and say finally.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, it’s not that easy. What happens is Sergeant Barnard came over to my desk, said, “Hey, you’re going to have to leave in four hours. We have a flight for you. They talked about who to send and it can be you or Davey, or you and Davey.” He said, “I’d like to just send you. It’s new year’s day.” Here’s what we’re worried about. He doesn’t like anybody that’s arrogant. He doesn’t want anybody to come in dressed up in a suit.

Wendy:

Good thing he didn’t send my husband.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I don’t know you like that. But just to have a conversation with the man.

Wendy:

Just sit down.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Ranger said that the suspect had already kicked one interviewer out of the room. He wanted to be very clear that whoever we send just needs to have a conversation.

David:

Let’s walk back as you talked about that they know this about him and they’ve been talking to him and then he talked about one and talked about a murder in Lexington. Can you tell us what that conversation was that the rangers had with him where that happened even?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Sure. What had happened, there had been a murder in Texas and the rangers had been assigned that murder. It was within 48 hours that he talked to the rangers and got caught. The rangers did a fantastic job in Texas. They put him in the back of the car from his arrest. They actually caught him on the way to an attorneys house with a weapon. They only made assumptions that he was going to kill that attorney, but they caught him in the car at that point. They put him in the back of the ranger car and was taking him to the Del Rio County Jail. At that point, he said, “I suppose I know what this is for.” He thought it was about Lexington when in fact the rangers were charging him with a murder in Texas.

David:

What was that story of that murder? Do you have any details about the one they picked him up on?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I do. It’s a sad story. There were two girls that were staying overnight with each other in a trailer park. The 13 year old Katy Harris had Krystal Surles over at her house overnight in their trailer. Krystal’s parents had to go make a trip. Her father was looking for a job in another state. Krystal was staying with Katy. During the middle of the night, Tommy Lynn Sells climbed in the rear window of the trailer and covered Katy’s mouth and sliced her throat and sexually assaulted. Krystal Surles was laying in the top bunk at the time this occurred and she woke up out of a dead sleep saw Tommy Lynn Sells slice Katy’s throat so she was very quiet and closed her eyes. She said, I don’t think he can see me if I can’t see him.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Just like a young child would when they’re afraid. Well, when Tommy Lynn Sells was done murdering Katy Harris, he noticed Krystal Surles, and went up to the top bunk, reached his hand up, covered her mouth and sliced her throat. She played dead because she was bleeding and he crawled back out the window. As he was leaving, she waited and laid there. As she was bleeding, she crawled out of the front of the trailer and was yelling for the rest of the family members and she thought they were all dead. Of course in Texas your neighbors are far apart. She went a quarter of a mile down to the next house to an older couple and knocked on the door. The older gentleman noticed that she was covered in blood and let her in.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

She couldn’t even speak. She was so injured that he got her… She was motioning for a pencil and she wrote the family’s last name and then she wrote dead as they were calling 911 for her. This 10 year old girl, being so brave, was worried about the other family. It’s pretty amazing.

Wendy:

Wow.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

She was rushed to the hospital and then that’s where the rangers got involved in their investigation.

Wendy:

She survived that right?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

She did. Next day, 24 hours later, she did a composite and identified Tommy Lynn Sells as the suspect that murdered Katy Harris.

Speaker 4:

How did the rangers catch Tommy Lynn Sells?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Katy Harris’s father had met Tommy Lynn Sells at a car dealership and they had gotten an argument and they suspected that Tommy had followed Mr. Harris home and saw that the young girls were there.

Wendy:

His intention all along was to come back to the girls.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes.

Wendy:

How ironic that this happened with 13 year old Hailey and now we have another 13 year old and a 10 year old, all female.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes.

Wendy:

He makes this utterance in the back of this car, when these –

Speaker 4:

How do they catch him?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

From the composite and then taking it to Mr. Harris and Mr. Harris said, that looks just like this gentleman. When they stopped him, they had enough to arrest him on the weapon and going to this attorney’s home because he was angry with the attorney. Later on, when we talk about Tommy Lynn Sells, you’ll see that he has his own rules for society. At that point they got him in the car and that’s why he mentioned Lexington, not knowing that they had him on the murder and the ranger after meeting him, he was great with Tommy Lynn Sells. He got him to talk about the murder in Texas. He confessed to that ranger about the murder of Katy Harris.

David:

When you talk about the ranger being great with Tommy, go into detail what do you mean by that and is that something that’s a goal when you’re with somebody? How do you get great with a bad guy like that?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yeah, that’s a great question thanks, David. What happens is you have to build rapport in a short period of time. If you can believe that so you know, this man has done the worst thing in society. Now you’re going to have to befriend this person. Calling them by first name is a great start. When he called us, he even said, Tommy, and we’re going Tommy, who? He goes, oh, Tommy Lynn Sells, we just arrested him for a murder. Tommy wants to talk to somebody. Well, the ranger used his first name. You get him a cup of coffee, anything they want. If they smoke cigarettes, you get them a cigarette. You approach them about the issue that you want to talk to them …

Det. Chris Schoonover:

You approach it like it’s no big deal. You minimize their role and anything they’ve ever done. And then you start to empathize with them. “Hey, I understand you had an argument with a gentleman earlier. We have seen that there’s been a disruption in his house. I’d like to talk to you about that. Can you tell me anything that you know?” You let them what David and I, and a bunch of the other homicide detectives used to say, you keep them talking and you get a great lie as better than no one talking at all. If you can start them talking and even lying to you, then you’re off to a really good start. Here’s a psychological thing that once you get a person with that personality of time and themselves, and you’ll know that personality right off. They always want to tell you a story and how wonderful it is and the things that they have done is not their fault. And then you can start using what they tell you against them.

Wendy:

Wow. You get the call from this ranger, and were you just blown away? Were you just thinking here we are some eight months later?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes.

Wendy:

Here we are.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I was a little excited, but a little nervous too, because if you’ve ever been to Del Rio, it’s in East Jesus. It’s way out there. You land in San Antonio, but you have to drive almost through the tip of Mexico and then back up into a corner of Texas.

Speaker 4:

What kind of preparation did you do once you got there talking to the Texas Rangers?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, prior to that, Mark Barnard, Sergeant Barnard and I talked. I went and bought a cooler once I landed there because I want his DNA, right and I’m going to have to fly back with it. I want to get the correct equipment to keep the things cold, get the swab and keep them secure. A cooler is like a carry on to me so that’s what I’m going to bring back with me if I can get his DNA. At that point, I call the ranger. I have his number. Once I land, I call the ranger and of course I rented the best car I could flat Texas fast convertible. No, I’m kidding.

Wendy:

Got to get there.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Right. I called the ranger and I asked what kind of personality he had. I told the ranger what I was wearing, because when I flew, I wore a button up shirt, white shirt, a tie and just Dockers. He said, well, you might want to change. Come in in just a polo shirt and some jeans. He said, and he already kicked one out. Here’s why he kicked him out. He said, just don’t do that mistake.

Speaker 4:

Why did he kick the other guy out?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

The other interviewer came in accusatory right off the beginning that he already had enough evidence to lock him up. That’s not going to work with Tommy Lynn Sells. From that point forward, I just went over my notes at a road stop, rest of Haley McHone’s case and details that I knew only he would know and walked up to the jail and the sheriff let me in. The Texas ranger introduced himself. He said, I’m not going to go back through with you because he just told me about a murder and I don’t want to involve my report with your report. Will set you up in a supply closet, that’s the only place they had for me to interview Tommy Lynn Sells and they used a VHS recorder.

Wendy:

Wow. Well, I have to ask when you were on that plane and driving in your little fast car down to Del Rio, were you excited? Were you nervous? Were you just thinking, oh my God, I could vomit. I’m so nervous. Or were you just like, I’m excited we finally got this.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes. My favorite part of the job, believe it or not, is not testifying into court. My favorite part is interviewing, getting information and trying to get the admission or confession of suspects. I love doing that. I was excited.

Wendy:

You were in your element?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes.

Wendy:

You walk into your little supply room, you push aside your paper clips and binder clips. Was Tommy in there or did they bring him to you?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

They brought him to me. I changed in the car. I put my jeans on and a polo shirt. Didn’t tuck it in. I asked all the questions. Are you allowed to smoke in here? Of course, it’s a supply room with paper towels, toilet paper, cleaner. They said, they look at me like, oh, this guy’s never going to get anything. He’s slow. Obviously we’re in the closet with cleaner. You’re not going to…. They said, obviously not. I asked him, how about coffee? Where do I get coffee? Does Tommy drink coffee? The sheriff confirmed it. I said, I want two cups of coffee, just bring the cream and sugar and we’re going to leave it on the desk. I already had it leaning on his cup, on the desk, because I don’t know what he wants in his coffee or if he even likes it.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Now I say this nonchalantly but I realize now we’ve got a gentleman that has two murders that I know of. I know he is got hot coffee and I know we’re in a small room and I’m going to ask him to admit to me that he’s done these terrible things. I kind of positioned some paper towel boxes on the floor to where I can at least grab him and throw them up in case he throws the hot coffee on me.

Wendy:

If you’re going to be wearing this hot coffee on your polo.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Right. I prepare the room for the interview. I remember the VHS, I was laughing because we have recording devices in Lexington we have them in the interview room and their high definition, but the VHS tape, I remember the camera being flipped around so I could see myself in doing the test and then Tommy Lynn comes in and he’s scruffy, long. He’s got like a mullet and he’s in a jumpsuit. First thing he asked me for is a cigarette. First thing I give him as a cigarette in the closet because I had some in my pocket because I know I’m going to be interviewing a suspect.

Wendy:

He sets a day on. Your first appearance, I know you said he was having his Mullet and in his jumpsuit, would you have imagined from your first impression of Tommy, are you thinking guy next door? Are you thinking, oh he’s creepy as can be?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I’m thinking this man been through the process before, so I have to be ready.

Wendy:

Yeah.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

But I’m still excited. It’s a very different feeling. You’re excited. You’re nervous. You’re wondering what makes this guy tick. The feeling of wanting to know what makes him tick and that you can help the community in the long run over weighs the nervousness and making mistakes.

David:

When you talk about thinking it wasn’t his first time in the process or the rodeo since you’re in Texas, what made you think that and what’s the difference in that when you handle somebody that’s been through the show before?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

What happens is when they approach you, it’s difficult to say. You can tell by, you look for tattoos. Regular tattoos are different than prison tattoos.

Wendy:

Yeah.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

There’s more art behind your regular tattoo. Prison tattoos are black and white on the knuckles and on neck. I instantly saw that one was on around his neck or on his neck. He came in like he wanted to control the situation. That’s a dead giveaway. He’s very comfortable in the flip flops in jumpsuit. I assume he’s been through the process before. How I’m going to approach this is I’m going to tell him, I’m going to give him two orders first. I’m going to tell to sit down and I’m not going to sit down because I want to be a little higher than him, right from the meeting and I don’t shake his hand right away. Those are the two things I don’t do.

Wendy:

Why do you not shake his hand?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Because I don’t want him to be able to turn my hand and get the… Psychologically, if a person to me, they’re going to take control of you by the way they shake your hand. If they turn their hand and they’re on top to them, they know that they’re going to be superior because you let them turn your hand. I don’t even want to go there. I’m going to tell him to sit down. I’m going to ask him if he needs anything.

Wendy:

He walks in and you say, have a seat.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I tell him, ask him how he’s doing. I actually tell him, well, you’re in a situation, I’m sorry, you’re in that situation.

Wendy:

You’re empathizing with him and he might not have been expecting that.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He doesn’t expect it at all. We proceed to just do the interview and of course you have these legal process you have to do. Now him going through the process before, advising them of their Miranda rights, you’ve got to do it very carefully and let them think about it but yet you want to get right into the conversation after you read it and you ask them, if they’re willing to talk to you. His personality, he wanted to know what I knew. I knew it wouldn’t be that difficult after I read his Miranda rights and then looked at him and I said, you want to talk about the situation I’m here for? I’m from Lexington. You said you had something to say about Lexington and that’s why I’m here.

Speaker 4:

His response?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I don’t remember exactly, but I do remember him saying, well, what do you do? I had to tell him I’m a homicide detective. He says, well, I guess, you know why I asked for a detective from Lexington. That’s what I remember our banter back and forth. I said, yeah, but I’ve been asked to come to a lot of places and people just want sympathy or a visitor. A lot of people want visitors because they’re alone in jail for a while. I said, I need to know that I’m talking to the right person.

Wendy:

You turned at a back around on him?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes.

Wendy:

What does he say when you say, are you the right person?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He says, well, I want to talk to you about a girl in Lexington. I said, that’s why I’m here. I’d like to talk to you too. Tell me a little bit about where you’re from because you don’t want to go right into what they’ve done. They’re not going to tell you. They may tell you, but they won’t be honest because he knows in a long run, this may go to court as well. He’s building his defense the same time he’s telling you what he’s done. Trust me. That happens a lot in the interview room. We talk about how he was raised, where he traveled. Very interesting things on Tommy Lynn Sells and him traveling across country. We spent a lot of time about where the system failed him before we even talked about Haley’s murder. He blames the judicial system in Washington State about not keeping him in when he asked for mental behavior assistance, because he was arrested there.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He said, if it weren’t for Washington State, these are the things wouldn’t have happened. He talks about how he was in jail in Lexington, Kentucky and they let him right out the same night. He was working over at Transylvania University as a groundskeeper. It was pretty amazing the things that he did. He worked at a carnival in Ohio and every place that he went, he wreaked havoc on at least one person’s life.

Wendy:

Wow.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yeah. He talked about a murder he committed in Ohio and I stopped him. I said, we will get back to that murder because now there’s three that I know about and I know the ranger didn’t bring up three. I told him, we’d get back to that because I’m interested in that too but we need to talk about Haley and then we started about the details of Haley McHone’s murder here in Lexington, Kentucky.

David:

How did he get around when you talked about him getting around the country?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He got around by train. Now it’s very interesting because I asked him, I said, how do you know which train is going in which direction? I know it’s strange because I’m there about a homicide, but you get to know a person and you learn for the next case. He said, well, I never learned which direction the train were going. I would always jump on with somebody who knew they were going somewhere. He would follow a homeless person onto that train and go to the next state.

Wendy:

Wherever that may be.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Wherever the train stopped and he felt warm enough, he stopped.

Wendy:

When you say let’s talk about… You divert him back, let’s talk about this. Did you call her by name or did you say this girl?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

At the beginning I didn’t call her by name and I wanted it… It’s another technique. Once you start talking about the murder, if you put a name to it, his personality, you have to really judge the personalities of who you’re talking to, but his personality, he could identify with a name and he had asked her her name when he had the encounter with Haley. I wanted to see his, and I didn’t know that at first until he told me and I wanted to see his expression when I started using her name.

Wendy:

And what was it?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He was fine with it. He was fine with calling her Haley.

Wendy:

Do you then say, well, tell me about this. Did he just open right up and the floodgate flowed and he just started from beginning and went to end?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I talked to him, it took about six hours and we took a break and then we talked two more hours. We went through several cigarettes and probably two cups of coffee, a piece. When I talk about an interview, it’s not something it’s an hour and I’m out of there. Like I said, we talk about him first and we get to know each other and of course, if you have to tell them, I’ll never tell them the truth about me. But if they ask, I always lie to them and tell them something interesting that I think they want to hear. Eventually, we started talking about Haley and how he came to Lexington on a train. He had worked in Lexington for a little bit. He liked his alcohol, he admitted that. He got arrested for DUI.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

When he got out that night, he started walking to the University of Kentucky and when it was getting light out, he went to the park and he noticed a woman walking a dog. He said, I was going to attack that woman that morning. But when he went up and asked her how her day was going, he said that dog was mean. He was not going to deal with that dog too. He said he left and went towards Transylvania University. I said, well, tell me how you went to Transylvania. Why did I ask that? Because then I’ll know if he’s been in Lexington, Kentucky. He gave me the directions on how he walked to Transylvania University and actually talked about the several steps in front of the steeple building. He said, I sat there and met some homeless people. We went… He tried to describe it.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He said, I went to this place where they hand out jobs, and then you can find a job for the day and when you come back, you get paid. I said, where was that? He said, it’s on a side street, Wind something, wind… I knew he was telling me the truth. He went to work that day. When he got off of work that afternoon, he went back to that park because he knew the train was going by there. He was sitting on the steps or excuse me, on the picnic table having a cigarette. He had bought some beer.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He said, this young girl walked up to him and asked him for a cigarette. She sat there and smoked a cigarette for a minute. He said, he thought a minute. He said, I offered a beer. She said, yeah, I’ll take a beer. He said, I knew she was young. I said, let’s go up towards the woods there so you don’t get in trouble for drinking a beer. They both walked out there and he said, I reached over to hug her and she started fighting back and that’s when he choked her and killed her.

Wendy:

Did he know that she lived that close to where they were?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

No.

Wendy:

No.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

No. He asked her her name. That’s how he knew when he gave her the cigarette he asked… They had small talk. Haley, how are you doing? He described her top. He said he took that off and left her shorts and then he covered her body up. He knew she was dead so he covered her body up and took her bike over to the north side of town and sold that for more money and then hopped to train to Louisville, Kentucky. Stayed there for a few days and then hopped a train to Texas.

David:

When he talked about strangling her, did he do that bare handed or did he use any instruments?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes. On the interview, it’s on video, if you ever saw it, he even used the motion with his hands around her neck. Yes, he used his hands to strangle her. But what was very important, he told me what brand he was drinking. We found those bottles out there. He told me about what brand cigarettes he was smoking. We found, of course we found a lot of cigarettes, but so at that point I knew eventually at the end of the interview, I was going to ask him for a DNA swab.

Wendy:

He strangled her because she fought back. Was there any sexual assault or was it just, he was angry so he strangled her?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He tried to make moves on her and she started fighting back so he killed her. He never admitted to sexually assaulting her and he never admitted that about Katy Harris. But they did a sexual assault kit on Katy Harris in Texas, and found out that she was sexually assaulted. In Haley’s situation, her body was in such a state of decomposition. It was undetermined and you wouldn’t be able to tell.

David:

Did he go into any detail when he was talking about strangling her? Did he talk anything about what it was like or how she responded or anything?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He did. I asked him if she screened or he said, all she did was grab his hands and try to fight back. He said, when she went limp, he knew that he had killed her. He held her neck even longer just to make sure he said, I didn’t want her to suffer. He laid her down and covered her body and immediately left with her bike.

Wendy:

Wow.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

The interesting part is I asked him also in the interview to describe the bike and he talked about the orange paint on the bike. I knew exactly that he was the person we were looking for, because that was description of the bike we put on the posters.

David:

Yeah because if I remember correctly, she had spray painted some different parts of it and made her, it was very unique which I think was frustrating us that we couldn’t find that bike.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yeah. He sold that bike to a homeless person and I’m sure they rode off with it.

Wendy:

Did the bike ever turn up?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

No, never.

Wendy:

Never turned up.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

No.

Speaker 4:

Chris, let me ask you, he describes what he did to Haley and what he did after that. At what point does your interview end?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, it doesn’t end with Haley because I wanted to show him that I was interested in him. I went back to, you told me about you were working for a circus in Ohio and that you had trouble in Ohio. I asked him about that. He said there was a circus worker that didn’t follow one of his rules and had started a problem with him. He had used a hammer and killed him.

David:

Well, tell us about the rules, because you alluded to that earlier. Tell us in the world of Tommy Lynn Sells what rule did he violate that he got a hammered?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, that’s a great question. I asked him in the interview, you keep talking about, if you break one of my rules, then you’re done with me. I’m going to kill you or I’m going to hurt you real bad. At that point I did get a little nervous in the room. He said, well, for instance, do you believe me that I killed Haley? I said, yeah, I believe. He said, that’s a good thing because if you don’t believe me and I’m telling you the truth, you broke one of my rules. In the same way, if anybody else broke any rule with children, because I asked him, I said, okay, that’s one of your rules. I knew from talking to him that he had a girlfriend in Texas and she had children.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I said, so what are the rules for the children? You have murdered two 13 year old girls. There was a 10 year old girl that you slit her throat. What are the rules? He turned to me and pointed at the video camera and he said, turn that thing off. At that point I said, I apologize. Let’s talk about other things and he was talking about other bodies. I said, well, I’d like to get the ranger in here because I don’t know, you’re describing places where you put these bodies and I’m not familiar with that, but I’ll be happy to stay in here with you while you talk to the ranger. The ranger had been up all night. We had waited till the next day and had brought the ranger back in and we had sat down and he told about more bodies and more murders that he had committed.

Wendy:

What was the children rule?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He never told me. When he told me to shut that thing off, I apologize and I wasn’t going to go there again.

David:

Because the interview might have ended, right?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Absolutely.

David:

Well, let me ask you this because –

Speaker 4:

At least.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Or I could have ended.

David:

Yeah, because one of the rules was probably wearing a tie. It’s a good thing you ditched that in a car, but let me ask you this because, we’ve sat in there before and like you said, you get lied to, nobody tells the truth that they tell a version of the truth. What it feel like when he started talking about more than one like that? What was going on in your mind? Was it one of those things, I can’t wait to tell everybody back home because those are the things that just don’t happen that often.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

It’s funny, you said that that was the first thing that went through my mind. I can’t wait to tell the other detectives that this guy even wants to talk about other murders and I’m going to be able to help them find these bodies because I don’t know how long it’s been since he had murdered other people. Just his entire story was very interest thing. How he put blame on other people. It’s the other person’s fault why he had to kill him? The circus guy didn’t follow his rules.

Wendy:

So he had to go.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He had to go. Same with me. He said, shut that thing off. I was going to follow his rules. It’s just very strange what he found were the moral rules of society. One of Tommy Lynn Sells was on that we said some networks were carrying. He said the most interesting thing. I find it that we do this when we investigate homicides. His phrase was, see you guys, many detectives, make everything so difficult when it’s really simple. It’s the simplest thing. Someone gets mad, you just have to know who they’re mad at and then they get killed. That was Tommy Lynn Sells and he’s right, because how often David, have we been asked? What do you think of his thinking? Where would he go next? With Tommy Lynn Sells and people like him, you can’t put your brain in their thought pattern because they don’t think the same as every normal human being.

David:

Absolutely.

Wendy:

Hey, you know there’s more to this story. Go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.

David:

The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as @murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us a five star review on Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. Please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.

Part 3 of 3:

David:

Warning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent acts and injury. Listener discretion is advised.

Wendy:

Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast.

Wendy:

Well, we’re back again. David, won’t you tell me where we left off on episode two?

David:

When we finished that one we had just learned who the killer was and got amazing details from Detective Schoonover when he interviewed that serial killer, it was fantastic. And on this next episode what we’re going to finish off with for this one is the legal process, a really good discussion about how this was handled through the court case, and inevitably what happened to Tommy Lynn Sells.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

With Tommy Lynn Sells, and people like him, you can’t put your brain in their thought pattern because they don’t don’t think the same as every normal human being.

David:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Ray:

So did you arrest him?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He was already arrested, so this is where you come in. I come back with the recorded, I would say admission, and with a swab of his DNA, and I present the case to your office.

Ray:

And you had assurance that he wasn’t going to get out?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes, he was in Texas, and he was charged with murder of a teenage girl and an attempted murder of a brave 10 year old, and we’ll get to that later, hopefully you’ll ask me about her. So I come back to you, I present the case to you, and much like another case that you handled you said, “Well let’s see what Texas does, because I like their legal process. We’ll talk to the family, see what’s best for the family in this situation, and you’ll get back with me, it’s on you now.” That’s your exact words.

David:

It always is that way.

Wendy:

Well speaking of the girl, I have to, not ruin, but as I’ve told you, I’ve been so interested in this case ever since I learned about it, I just couldn’t fathom a lot of the things that I had read in one of the books on him, and researching some of the stuff online, the videos of him and his interviews with various people. I found a video on that girl as a young adult, the 10 year old, and she described when he came in that room, you’re right, she was hoping that he wouldn’t see her, and he turned back to give one last look and that’s when he caught her glance, and she said he just told her, “Get your hands up, move your hands,” and she put them up by her head like he told her to do, and he just slit her throat and left.

Wendy:

And the interviewer asked her, “What was his demeanor?” And she said, “It was very flat.” He had just no look in his eyes and he did it, he didn’t seem angry, and she said, “I watched him kill my friend at the bottom of the bunk bed, and he had no expression, just none, and he slit her throat and walked off.”

David:

Was he like that when you interview him, kind of flat, did he look nervous like oh, I’m caught?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

No. In my very honest opinion he enjoyed the attention. He knew he was going somewhere, as far as fame. Does that make sense?

David:

Absolutely.

Wendy:

Well, and you needed him at that moment.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Right.

Wendy:

You needed to hear what he had to say. And in reading about him, and he did have a horrendous childhood, and I’m by no means using that as an enabling factor for him to do what he did, but I often thought the more I read, he’s reaching out for that attention, and so I feel like that maybe he thought you needed him at that moment and he’s in control. It seems like everything was about control with him, “Put your hands up,” the girl put them up, he cut her throat, or the guy who didn’t follow the rule, it seems like everything I’ve read about Tommy Lynn, he wanted control in every situation, and if you don’t follow his control or his rules, you pay the price.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

That’s very accurate, personality wise, and Tommy Lynn Sells rules, that’s very accurate.

Ray:

Well let’s talk about, he was charged with murder in Texas. Was he charged with additional murders in Texas?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I’m glad you asked that question because the next day, after I talked to the ranger, I got a call from my supervisor that said, “No, you can’t out there, I need you back as soon as possible.” So the ranger gets all the credit for following up on Tommy Lynn Sells’ later confession. He had a rapport with Tommy I think that nobody else had, and Tommy ended up leading him to other bodies.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Now, the other bodies, one or two came up during the legal process of him going to trial with Katy Harris’s death, and then he was sentenced to death. And then all of a sudden, as normal, these criminals, “Hey, I have another body I want to show you,” and so he would take the ranger to another location and sure enough there’d be a there, and that would postpone his execution, and he knew what he was doing. Some of the social media things in excerpts you’ll see Tommy, and he says things that are cliche, I think that he’s learned over the years, that people that are like him would say. Knowing his personality one on one with him, I know it’s him to gain fame.

Ray:

Okay. Well, he was charged in Lexington.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Yes he was, by your office.

Ray:

Okay, but he was never brought back to answer those charges.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

He wasn’t, because you spoke with the family and us and felt it’d be better off he’d be left in Texas.

Ray:

Well, Texas is tough on the death penalty. They were a state where they seek the death penalty, and the death penalty is given by a jury. Texas carries it out, and typically in a much shorter fashion.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

It was very short.

Ray:

Yeah, and so as a result I made a decision, so he is charged here, and you want to charge him, because you want some sort of a resolution of the case, the Haley McHone case, but let’s leave the penalty to Texas where we’re more comfortable that they’re going to deal with it the way it should. And if you bring a guy back to be arraigned, like Tommy Lynn Sells, what you end up doing is you have to transport him, chance he can escape, and when he gets here he starts filing some kind of motions not to go back to Texas. So the best move legally is to leave him there, and turned out to be a good decision, because they scorched him.

David:

Smoke ’em if you got Them.

Ray:

Right.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

And if I recall, the other issue that we discussed at your office was there was a family in Indiana that they had discovered that he had murdered, and you said, “Well, we have to be in line. So let’s wait and see when this homicide occurred, and then we’ll get in line and see if we need to bring him here. In the meantime, we’ll leave him in Texas, and you’ll make contact with the other states to see what the best situation is.”

Ray:

Well, you don’t want to bring a serial murderer, you don’t want to transport him because there’s too many possibilities of bad things happening. And Texas did their job.

David:

Do we have any idea, talking about time, because it’s quick.

Ray:

Seven years.

David:

Yeah.

Ray:

And in most places it’s, well in Kentucky, hell, there are people on death row now, and the leading cause of death on Kentucky’s death row is old age.

David:

Exactly, exactly.

Wendy:

Well, I think in talking about the family in Illinois that you were referencing, that was horrific. I often wonder how many other things are out there that Tommy Lynn did that just nobody ever knew, or maybe he had forgotten about in his alcohol induced state.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I do know that, having access to some legal information, I do know that his DNA is still being tested on older cold case crimes, out in California is one location where they’ve wanted to test his DNA for certain crimes out there, and other situations as well.

David:

Let me ask this, and Ray, this goes to you too, and maybe we don’t know, did we ever get an impression in Texas that he was trying to delay that? Because some of these guys will play that game of, well, if you don’t cook me, I’ll take you to three more. Are you aware of anything?

Ray:

Oh, “If you’ll take the death penalty off the table, I’ll tell you.”

David:

Yes, exactly.

Ray:

Oh that happens.

David:

I didn’t know if he had tried that, but I know it’s a common thing.

Ray:

Well guess what, when you got a good solid death penalty case, go with it, and don’t sit around and start doing all of the bargaining with guys, because he said it, they lie.

Wendy:

So you wrap this up, you figure out that he’s your guy, and you come back, and do you just keep following it when you come back? Or what’s the next step in that process?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I do. What a lot of people don’t understand is the arrest is really the beginning of the hard work. You’ve put the pieces together, so now what you have to do is make it presentable so a jury will understand it, and you have to present it to the commonwealth attorney’s office. Then Mr. Larson will assign himself or another assistant commonwealth attorney, and they will walk you through what they need in court.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

What you need for an arrest to charge Tommy Lynn Sells with murder is totally different than what you would need for a conviction in the courtroom in Fayette County. So you want to have several meetings with Ray’s office, and they’re going to go through your case file, which is documented, you’re always documenting, and if they find something that needs to be done, they’re going to assign you a to-do list so they can get a conviction in the courtroom, which means I may have to go back to the family member and say, “Tommy Lynn Sells tells me he was here this afternoon in the park on Elizabeth Street. Where were you? Why didn’t you see your daughter on the bike? And were you home when she got home from school? Can you say she was over at the park?”

Det. Chris Schoonover:

So you have another series interviews you’re going to have to go through, as well as the to-do list that Mr. Larson’s office is providing you. In any serving subpoenas, if the sheriffs can’t do that for witnesses in a trial, you have to go through all of that and prepare and prepare and prepare for trial.

Wendy:

So did you have to go back to Texas again when all of this arrest work began?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I did not. Based on Mr. Larson’s decision on waiting to see where we land in the lineages of crimes that Tommy Lynn Sells had committed, we were awaiting, and lo and behold, we found out that they were going to seek the death penalty trial for the death of Katy Harris and the attempted murder of Krystal Surles.

Ray:

So did you follow the execution of Tommy Lynn Sells?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I definitely did, and I also, David kept in contact with me the whole time. We talked about the case several times together, and found out that he was going to be executed in 2014, we didn’t know the date, and we heard that it was going to be April 3rd. So we watched the news to see if that was actually true, and lo and behold on April 3rd, 2014 Tommy Lynn Sells was executed in the State of Texas.

David:

What method did they use on him?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Lethal injection.

Ray:

All of the never ending appeals over the lethal injection has to do with the injection that supposedly puts them to sleep before they inject what will cause their death, and they say that first injection is painful. And I used to get those calls on the radio, somebody called me up and says, “Isn’t that painful? Isn’t that awful?” And I said, “Hey, Buckaroo, you ever had a colonoscopy?” And they’ll say, “Well yeah,” and I said, “Do you remember them putting you to sleep?” He says, “No, nothing bothered me,” I said, “Why don’t we vote to use whatever they do for a colonoscopy?” And so we all agreed with that, but that would be appealed as well.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

That could be your next bumper sticker as well, for Ray the DA.

David:

Well, that’s what’s holding us up in Kentucky, if I remember correctly, is the fight over the drugs, and they use arguments like, “Well, I heard him snore, and that’s cruel and unusual, or it indicates they’re not passing away quickly enough.”

Ray:

I’ll start cussing here shortly. Tell me about-

Wendy:

Well, I have to reference something before we move on with your next tell me about. I agree, I hear the people say it’s cruel and unusual, and me personally, this is just my opinion, that burns me up, because I think cutting a 13 year old little girl’s neck is very cruel and unusual, and I think strangling a little girl that’s also 13 is cruel and unusual, and all of his other murders, well, they were cruel and unusual too. So I know that people in society want to say, “Well, this is cruel unusual, why are we doing this? That hurts them, that first injection hurts them,” but why are we forgetting about the victims.

Ray:

Now here’s what you’re doing, you’re starting to get into the victim’s rights business, and how they really don’t care whether it hurts them or not. And I personally don’t care whether it hurts them or not, pretty soon that they’re going to be it out of here, and so I don’t care. What I want to know is when we didn’t have a trial in Lexington, Kentucky for the murder of Haley McHone, why does a detective spent so much time on this case? What do you think? What are you thinking?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Well, since I don’t like to testify in court, I’m thinking that’s great. No, in all seriousness, you have to take each homicide case individually, it can’t be a blanket decision for all of them. And what I mean by that is if the community is better served with the execution of Tommy Lynn Sells, then let’s do that. If we think we can get more of a sentence here than in Idaho or Washington State, let’s bring them here and take care of that. And I feel safe speaking for all the detectives that I think as a result that’s what they would rather do.

Ray:

Well, I’ve known lots and lots of prosecutors around the country, and I think that the relationship between the homicide unit, well, not the police department in general in Lexington and the prosecutors, is probably the best that I’ve run into. And I was the vice president of the National District Attorney’s Association, and I heard such complaints from those men and women about working with their police department, that was just foreign to me. I mean hell, were all on the team, we’re trying to accomplish the same thing. Now you said there’s a difference between making an arrest and getting a conviction, and what you got to think about, that most people don’t, is you’ll get 12 people come in and make a jury. How many months did this case take you?

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Estimate 10 months, by the time we got the DNA back, and after the interview of Tommy Lynn Sells.

Ray:

If we would’ve tried this case, it would’ve taken at least a week to try it, and just think about having to compress all of that information that took you 10 months to do, and get a group of people that typically know nothing about it, give them that kind information, and then convince them that this guy did it, and that he needs to suffer the consequences of his behavior. And that’s hard to do sometimes, and you all are outstanding at telling the story of the crime. So any rate, I got all the faith in the world in you guys.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

Thank you.

Wendy:

Well thank you, Chris, again for coming, you have shared so much about this that I’ve just been dying to know, so I appreciate you sharing your experience with Tommy Lynn Sells.

Det. Chris Schoonover:

I’ve enjoyed being here, thanks for letting me tell the story of Haley McHone.

Wendy:

Well, we appreciate that. That’s just bad. I hated hearing this story, and my heart breaks for her family. Ray, as always, thank you for sharing, you’re such a wealth knowledge.

Ray:

Adios.

Wendy:

Husband, thank you.

David:

No, it was fantastic. And let me add too that her Memorial is still intact and beautifully cared for in Floral Park, the neighbor association actually put a granite monument years ago back there and they have it landscaped beautifully. I was up there maybe a month ago, and maybe we’ll put that in the show notes on this, to give people an idea of what that looks like. So her memory goes on, it was their favorite park, and those neighbors are still letting her memory live on.

Wendy:

Rest in peace, Haley.

David:

The Murder Police Podcast is host it by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. This podcast is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more, and give us a five star review on Apple podcast, or wherever you download your podcast from, and please tell your friends.

David:

Lock it down, Judy.