The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 2 of 3

In Part 2 of The Murder of Charlie Sowers, learn how time, even though painful and frustrating, played in the favor of a cold case and moved the case forward.  Reinterviewing witnesses and suspects found information that was ‘left out’, years ago.

We also have an audio recording of an attempted phone sting between the suspects.  It ended up with a quick hang up, smart for a killer.

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Episode Transcript

The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 2 of 3

00;00;00;14 – 00;00;26;21

Rob Wilson

Oh, and you already said in your previous statement you were with her all day long. So you were in Lexington. He’s like, Yeah, but not I certainly didn’t do this. And then I gave him a little more and eventually he comes as clean as he possibly can, is like, Yeah, I was there. I was going to go work on a blazer that he had in his driveway, and Rachel went in and she comes running out 15 minutes later, like, we got to get out here.

00;00;26;21 – 00;00;27;03

Rob Wilson

We got to get.

00;00;27;03 – 00;00;31;26

Wendy Lyons

Out of here. The same story he told her. She told her that, yes.

00;00;32;19 – 00;00;39;10

Wendy Lyons

Warning! The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.

00;00;42;06 – 00;01;06;16

Wendy Lyons

Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Charlie Sowers, Part two.

00;01;06;18 – 00;01;29;12

Rob Wilson

Read through it a couple of times and they do great work. You know, sometimes you just so at that point it had been ten years. So my list start re-interviewing some of the people that they’ve interviewed because it’s been ten years and we believe suspect new dictum and all this stuff and several friends. So maybe somebody broke up with their girlfriend and now they’re ready to talk stuff like that.

00;01;29;14 – 00;01;56;07

Rob Wilson

So just really wound up re interviewing people and one interview with Tonya Joyner. Talk to her and she’s like, yeah, talk to Toni McQueen. And she said that she was with Rachel Martin and Edward Carroll. Those were the suspects went down to Jig Water Creek and saw them burn some things right after Charlie was killed. I’m like, Well, I’ve read Dave’s memo and he interviewed Toni McQueen.

00;01;56;07 – 00;02;08;28

Rob Wilson

She didn’t say that. So I tracked down Toni McQueen and she’s like, Well, you heard it half right. My son did. And he told me that story and I was like, okay, I’d like to speak to Nicholas. And he had passed away.

00;02;09;01 – 00;02;10;18

Wendy Lyons

Her son passed away?

00;02;10;21 – 00;02;23;17

Rob Wilson

Yeah. So as Dave knows, that statement is useless because it’s hearsay, right? So again, there’s sometimes bad guys get great breaks, you know, by evidence. You know.

00;02;23;19 – 00;02;24;10

Wendy Lyons

People passing.

00;02;24;10 – 00;02;43;26

Rob Wilson

Away, People passing away. Yeah, we had that happen, I think three times. In this case, because it had been ten years and some of the people were older, had passed away. That would have been fantastic witnesses. So I talked to Toni. She leads me to another person, which leads me to another person. And Dave had done good work.

00;02;43;26 – 00;03;03;16

Rob Wilson

He interviewed Edward and Rachel probably within three days of the murder and got their baseline statement. And again, family members were a little upset that Dave and Chris didn’t push on the suspects. But they have to understand, like if you don’t have anything.

00;03;03;18 – 00;03;04;10

Wendy Lyons

There’s only so much.

00;03;04;12 – 00;03;13;09

Rob Wilson

There’s only so much because you want to be on their good side so you can go back and talk to them. If you pissed them off in the first interview, they’ll ask for a lawyer and you can’t talk to them again.

00;03;13;14 – 00;03;31;09

David Lyons

Another myth. Yes, there’s the mythology that’s out there again is that and we’ve talked about this on the show we did, is that you can just go pick people up and make them talk to you. Well, maybe in Russia or China, yeah, but not in the United States of America. And in in so beyond the Constitution, that pesky thing.

00;03;31;09 – 00;03;39;21

David Lyons

I don’t I’m joking about it because we all benefit from that. Yes, he is. No, you cannot compel people to go with you and talk and then second to that is the relationship and rapport.

00;03;39;23 – 00;03;40;05

Rob Wilson

Yeah.

00;03;40;06 – 00;03;42;00

David Lyons

Is that you don’t burn bridges, right?

00;03;42;00 – 00;04;04;06

Rob Wilson

Because at that point, again, you hear enough If enough callers come in from different sources saying the same thing, you’re like, okay, we may have something here. Right? So Dave and Chris did the smart thing. They knocked on their door, didn’t call them down. The police department went to their house like, hey, we know, you know, Charlie or whatever, demand answering some questions for us, keeping them very non-confrontational.

00;04;04;08 – 00;04;21;29

Rob Wilson

And all they did was attempt to get that based on like, okay, where were you that day? Well, they said that they were stayed in Nicholas V all day long, and then they hung out with some friends and that and they were very precious. Well, thank you so much. You know, we’ll be in touch. Is it art if we contact you, if we have some more questions or like, Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.

00;04;22;01 – 00;04;24;06

Rob Wilson

Thinking true, we’re on their radar.

00;04;24;07 – 00;04;24;26

David Lyons

Yeah.

00;04;24;28 – 00;04;52;24

Rob Wilson

And then at that point, I believe Dave did a search warrant for Rachel Martin’s phone. And it, of course, contradicted their story. They were in Lexington and hit off the cell tower closest to Charlie’s in Lexington. Not a real close proximity because the tower can only get you, you know, such a radius. But they put him in the area, put both of them in the area.

00;04;52;26 – 00;05;11;09

Rob Wilson

And so Dave and Chris felt pretty confident, you know, that it was more than likely them and kept trying to interview people, but they were getting shut down. Then again, the family was like, well, you caught him in a lie. You know, they did it was like, I get what you’re saying, but all that we can prove is their telephone, not even them.

00;05;11;11 – 00;05;31;08

Rob Wilson

We could come back to them and say, Well, somebody stole our phone that day, Right? All we can say is Rachel’s phone was near a cell tower near Charlie’s house. People intimate with the case recognize no Edward and Rachel. Problems like. Well, they did it. And this is another thing. There’s such a difference between knowing something and proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

00;05;31;10 – 00;05;57;01

Rob Wilson

Huge. And you only get one crack at it. So you do have to be cautious. So Dave and Chris did the right thing for the family. They were kind of upset with Dave and Chris. I mean, they well, here’s what I did in 2020. This is what Dave and Chris did in 2009. They did a lot more work than I did, right?

00;05;57;06 – 00;06;13;04

Rob Wilson

I came in at the last and just kind of pushed over a couple of turned over a couple of rocks that people felt more comfortable talking to me ten years later than they did a week after Charlie’s death. And then we’re living in the same town with the suspects.

00;06;13;04 – 00;06;30;13

David Lyons

That’s a real thing, too. Absolutely. So people don’t always maturely lie to you on purpose. Sometimes they forget sometimes something that just sounds really simple to them. They won’t bring up because they’re like, what’s like, they won’t even phase them and then go to that. Next one is that, you know, they know people. Yeah. And like you said, they live in that town.

00;06;30;13 – 00;06;32;14

David Lyons

Yeah. That’ll shut somebody down pretty quick too.

00;06;32;15 – 00;07;04;01

Rob Wilson

Yeah. So I wound up getting a couple people to give me a just a little bit more information than they were able to give Dave and Chris initially. And then I was able to convince a couple of witnesses that I won’t name to wear a wire. So they did that. We got some good admissions, but no real confessions about the suspect told me he did this, but they did confirm some things about Edward and Rachel coming back to a house, borrowing a gas can.

00;07;04;03 – 00;07;07;19

Rob Wilson

And they went off in like I’d heard they went to Jig Water Creek.

00;07;07;21 – 00;07;08;28

David Lyons

Where do you know where.

00;07;09;01 – 00;07;14;06

Rob Wilson

It’s in Nichols ville, Jesmond County on the south End. It’s not too far from here. Yeah, we’re.

00;07;14;06 – 00;07;21;16

David Lyons

Going to find Jay Water Creek, because I had a case one time. I had a case one time where some guns were thrown and they could take a river. A Nonesuch.

00;07;21;19 – 00;07;23;06

Rob Wilson

Yeah. Not saying that in the county.

00;07;23;06 – 00;07;30;00

David Lyons

Yeah, exactly. And that’s actually a place called Nonesuch. So interesting. What. Sorry to jump over again from Jug Water Creek.

00;07;30;01 – 00;08;03;14

Rob Wilson

Yeah. So with all that, we were really close. I talked to the Commonwealth, which is always a good idea for young detectives out there because yeah, our burden of proof is probable cause, which is roughly 51%. But the Commonwealth handed the Commonwealth the case of 51%. You’re more than likely going to lose. Yeah, because they had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and I had to sit down with the Commonwealth and went over my next options and again reviewed all the cell tower information, see if there’s anything new we could glean from that.

00;08;03;14 – 00;08;05;17

Rob Wilson

There wasn’t.

00;08;05;19 – 00;08;09;11

Wendy Lyons

And you hadn’t spoken to these two people yet? No. Okay.

00;08;09;13 – 00;08;30;24

Rob Wilson

Know the suspects are the last people you want to confront. Track down some more people where this individual had a conversation with the suspect, Edward Carroll. It’s like, yeah, I’m going to rob Charlie, you know, how am I take his wad of cash? Well, that person died, you know, And again, I heard from a third party from somebody that was at the house when this conversation took place but didn’t overhear it.

00;08;30;28 – 00;08;38;24

Rob Wilson

It’s like, oh, no, Edward was talking to them. And I think I hear something about a burglary or a robbery, but I can’t say specifically. And so, like, thanks for for all your help.

00;08;38;26 – 00;08;39;16

David Lyons

Yeah.

00;08;39;19 – 00;09;02;09

Rob Wilson

And again, it’s just so frustrating sometimes because it’s like all you need is one true statement. And there was an individual that they showed a six pack to. And for everybody out there that’s a photo lineup, six pictures, one of them being your suspect. And they identified Rachel Martin as being up at the the bar restaurant a little bit before Charlie left and never came back.

00;09;02;16 – 00;09;24;18

Rob Wilson

Well, that witness died. Mm. So we were hitting roadblock after roadblock. And what really broke it is at this time, I had kind of befriended Edward Carroll’s mother and talked to her. And I was like, Hey, I just I just want to give you an opportunity because this train’s coming down the tracks. I was bluffing and I talked to her a couple of times.

00;09;24;18 – 00;09;48;24

Rob Wilson

She was like, No, I remember this. Remember this? Kind of built up a rapport with her. And then the last time I interviewed her because she was present, I believe when Dave and Chris interviewed them the first time, she was upstairs and she told me, like, you know, I just remembered that when Edward went in to take a shower after the detectives left, she told me I killed Charlie.

00;09;48;26 – 00;09;51;16

Rob Wilson

I’m like, You just remember this.

00;09;51;19 – 00;09;54;28

Wendy Lyons

Ten year, more than ten years later, that kind of utterance.

00;09;54;28 – 00;09;58;06

David Lyons

Yeah. It’s not that I broke a glass on a john again I forgot about.

00;09;58;12 – 00;10;01;28

Wendy Lyons

So this mother. So this is the mother of Rachel.

00;10;01;28 – 00;10;02;29

Rob Wilson

The mother of Edward.

00;10;02;29 – 00;10;11;17

Wendy Lyons

Of Edward. So how about old was Edward and Rachel in 2009 when this happened?

00;10;11;19 – 00;10;14;00

Rob Wilson

Late twenties, early thirties, I believe.

00;10;14;02 – 00;10;16;01

Wendy Lyons

So Mom was probably.

00;10;16;03 – 00;10;16;18

Rob Wilson

60.

00;10;16;21 – 00;10;19;01

Wendy Lyons

Yeah. Yeah. So now Mom’s in her seventies.

00;10;19;03 – 00;10;19;15

Rob Wilson

Yeah.

00;10;19;19 – 00;10;23;04

Wendy Lyons

She just happened to remember that her son did this.

00;10;23;04 – 00;10;31;14

Rob Wilson

I didn’t believe her, obviously. I think she knew that I was getting close and she was trying to divert the blame on Rachel and protect her son.

00;10;31;16 – 00;10;32;02

David Lyons

Networks.

00;10;32;08 – 00;10;32;18

Rob Wilson

Yeah.

00;10;32;21 – 00;10;32;29

David Lyons

Good.

00;10;33;03 – 00;10;49;28

Rob Wilson

Good. So with that, I go to the Commonwealth and I think we’re at the point I can’t imagine me getting any more information. You know, I’ve talked to everybody I possibly can. And so, like, I’m going to go for Rachel since something has already been said about her being responsible.

00;10;50;03 – 00;10;57;17

Wendy Lyons

Were you afraid that Mom was going to call Edward and say, this guy just left here, Go hide or you better get it together?

00;10;57;17 – 00;11;05;08

Rob Wilson

Sure. You know, that was a possibility, but I had to play my hand. You know, we were at the point of, you know, jumping off the cliff or walking away.

00;11;05;10 – 00;11;06;14

David Lyons

Know we go.

00;11;06;17 – 00;11;35;03

Rob Wilson

So I tracked down Rachel, took another detective with me, Blake Woodward, a really, really sharp young officer. Very sharp. He’ll be promoting so the homicide a lose. Another good one, but good for him. Um, we tracked her down at her family’s farm in Garrard County, and we went up to her on our porch, and, you know, it’s like, Hey, we just need to talk to you again about, you know, Charlie’s hours.

00;11;35;10 – 00;11;58;20

Rob Wilson

And she gave the verbatim statement that they gave Dave and Chris. And I was like, Well, there’s a problem with that, and I think I’d prepped it before. It’s like, So you had your cell phone with you that day. You were making calls. So she couldn’t say somebody stole my cell phone. Yes. So it’s like, well, we did the phone record search on your cell phone and it shows you it, you know, Charlie’s house, you know, And that was a bit of a bluff as well, you know, But it did hit on the closest tower.

00;11;58;20 – 00;12;25;27

Rob Wilson

But I said, you know, at his house. And she’s like, yeah, I think we went up there because Edward was going to work on Charlie’s car. We probably should have told you that, but we thought you’d think we were suspects and we shouldn’t have lied. But we did. Very smart, you know? Yeah. So then I was like, Well, I’ve had somebody that I interviewed that said, you admitted to killing Charlie Sours on your own, and she’s like, Oh, that’s just he can’t do that.

00;12;25;29 – 00;12;45;02

Rob Wilson

I didn’t do that at that point. I was like, You need to turn around. Put your hands behind your back. You’re under arrest for the murder of Charlie Sours. And I was like, This is your opportunity to to tell the truth. And if anybody else was more culpable than you, then you need to tell that story. And that conversation lasted 15 minutes.

00;12;45;04 – 00;13;02;20

Rob Wilson

She said, okay, okay, I’ll tell you this and would give me increments of the truth. Sure. Until that was like not good enough in in all her statements were factual that I could prove because there are such things as false confessions. Right. You know, I’m not I wouldn’t it’s like, yeah, that’s when I saw Edward take the shotgun and shoot him in the head.

00;13;02;25 – 00;13;05;15

Rob Wilson

Well, that’s not true, because the the evidence at the scene.

00;13;05;20 – 00;13;10;27

Wendy Lyons

Now were her and Edward dating back. They were in Ah. Were they still affiliated ten years later?

00;13;10;27 – 00;13;17;05

Rob Wilson

No, they lasted probably six months to a year. But again, both were afraid of, you know.

00;13;17;06 – 00;13;18;23

Wendy Lyons

That the other is going to tell.

00;13;18;23 – 00;13;39;27

Rob Wilson

Exactly. So eventually she wound up telling the story that they did go over there. The intent was for Edward to steal some money that Charlie had. So, like, I waited in the car and all of a sudden Edward comes back out. He’s very flustered. So we got to get out or we got to get out of here. And he he still never told me what he did.

00;13;40;00 – 00;13;56;19

Rob Wilson

And then, you know, the next thing we know, we go to this house and get some gas and we go to Jig Water Creek. And I wait in the car and he goes out and I see smoke coming up from behind the brush and he comes back with no shoes, you know? And I’m like, What? What’s Deonna? So she finally confronts him like, I didn’t kill him.

00;13;56;19 – 00;14;21;02

Rob Wilson

I hit him over the head just once. Just once. It was an accident. So it’s like, okay, all right, that works. Whether he said that or not, it was inaccurate about the number of times that he struck Mr. Souers. So with that, she’s charged and I believe we did a complicity to commit murder, which is easier to prove with multiple suspects, because that’s what typically happens to people commit a crime.

00;14;21;02 – 00;14;46;11

Rob Wilson

Eventually they will point the finger at each other and complicity says you don’t exactly have to know who actually killed the person, just that they were working in concert together. And it carries roughly the same penalty. So we charged them with that. Got her down to the Polaski County jail, I think was the closest had her housed. We tried to do a phone sting for Rachel to call Edward.

00;14;46;13 – 00;14;51;08

Rob Wilson

He made some comments and then got panicked and hung up the phone because I hadn’t talked in.

00;14;51;08 – 00;14;51;27

Wendy Lyons

In quite.

00;14;51;27 – 00;14;52;24

Rob Wilson

Some time.

00;14;52;26 – 00;14;56;02

Wendy Lyons

Why did she go to Pulaski instead of staying local?

00;14;56;04 – 00;15;31;02

Rob Wilson

They didn’t have the I didn’t think they had any beds for her. So we had to find the next closest regional jail. And so that’s where we took her. And again, the phone thing didn’t really work out as as we’d hoped. So again, talk with the Commonwealth. It’s like, well, you know, she pointed the finger at him, you know, and like this is, you know, it’s shaky ground because if he doesn’t confess, you know, do we have enough, you know, just because she’d already allegedly confessed to Edward’s mom and then she’s putting it on Edward, I mean.

00;15;31;05 – 00;15;45;25

David Lyons

You know, in in those small little lies you talked about. Yeah, that’s that’s really big fodder for a defense attorney. It sure is. Her credibility is is. Yeah. What a strange place to be. Was that was that statement recorded out? Do you remember? Yes.

00;15;45;27 – 00;16;38;14

Speaker 3

He might answer. Is it okay? I hope he doesn’t do that. Son of a bitch. That was anything. Hello? Hey. All right. What are you doing here? Yes. Who do you think this is? I don’t know. Do it. Rachel. What the fuck? I just got out this morning on house arrest. House arrest? Yeah. Here for your bullshit. He knows stuff.

00;16;38;15 – 00;17;11;06

Speaker 3

That man. You know it. That’s how situations. But we’re. You’re like a smurf up the third. He got me and all that shit. I didn’t even know him. Why would you do that? I mean, they said they come into his apartment.

00;17;11;08 – 00;17;22;06

Wendy Lyons

Well, and he’s probably thinking, I haven’t talked to you in all these years. And number one, how odd that you call. And number two, why are you talking about this again? Yeah. Did he know she was thinking? No.

00;17;22;08 – 00;17;33;15

Rob Wilson

No, we scripted it out, I believe, to where it’s like, hey, the police came talking to me. You know, we better get our story straight again, stuff like that. He started talking a little bit, I believe in that. Finally just hung up on her.

00;17;33;17 – 00;17;34;05

Wendy Lyons

Oh, wow.

00;17;34;08 – 00;17;58;20

Rob Wilson

Yeah. So I go to the Commonwealth and I like, okay, you interview him, but you know, he doesn’t put himself there. Then we don’t have enough. So I get with him. He was living in Nicholas Ville at the time. I get with Nicholas Field Police Department. He’s actually a really good police department. They there are so many detectives there over the years that were so helpful to us in cases.

00;17;58;20 – 00;18;04;22

Rob Wilson

Autumn Howard was one detective Love. They really sharp people in that department.

00;18;04;22 – 00;18;06;10

David Lyons

It’s a good PD. It really is.

00;18;06;10 – 00;18;09;13

Wendy Lyons

And he’s back policing again now. Retired and went right back.

00;18;09;13 – 00;18;13;17

Rob Wilson

Yeah, that’s what I hear. Good for him. A better man than I am. Exactly.

00;18;13;17 – 00;18;14;10

David Lyons

He’s a good guy.

00;18;14;10 – 00;18;37;27

Rob Wilson

Yeah, but. So coordinate with them. They go pick him up, bring him to the jail. I introduce myself, ask him to like, Hey, we’re here because of this. I need you to go through your story. He’s like, I swear, what I told them ten years ago is the truth. And so I start to feed him a little. The announce like, Well, we know about the cell phone now.

00;18;37;29 – 00;18;59;29

Rob Wilson

I think that was lost or something. I was like, Now, I already talked to Rachel. She had it all day and it was her phone. Oh, and you already said in your previous statement you were with her all day long, so you were in Lexington. He’s like, Yeah, but I did not. I certainly didn’t do this. And then I gave him a little more and eventually he comes as clean as he possibly can, is like, Yeah, I was there.

00;18;59;29 – 00;19;10;19

Rob Wilson

I was going to go work on a blazer that he had in his driveway, and Rachel went in and she comes running out 15 minutes later is like, We got to get out of here. We got to get out of here.

00;19;10;19 – 00;19;13;00

Wendy Lyons

The same story he told her. She told her mother.

00;19;13;00 – 00;19;32;11

Rob Wilson

Yes. So and he tells the same story about Jig, Water Creek. They go to Jig Water Creek, but he stays in the car and she goes out and burns stuff. Yeah. So that is that. Honestly, that was the best I was hoping for because he’s not just going to come out, say now, you know, it’s been too long.

00;19;32;11 – 00;19;34;08

Rob Wilson

I need to be honest. It’s like I murdered him.

00;19;34;11 – 00;19;34;25

David Lyons

Yeah, they.

00;19;34;25 – 00;19;59;18

Rob Wilson

Just don’t do that unless you’ve got overwhelming evidence that you can confront them with. So I talked to Kim Henderson at the Commonwealth and told her that what he did and she’s like, He really said that? Yeah. Just like, yeah, I was expecting to get a call and such and we’re out of luck. But now so she greenlighted the, the arrest so charged him again with conspiracy to commit murder.

00;19;59;21 – 00;20;03;18

Rob Wilson

Got it all wrapped up and was able to make it back to Andrea Williams retirement party that.

00;20;03;25 – 00;20;05;16

David Lyons

Yeah there we go. Yeah.

00;20;05;19 – 00;20;08;18

Wendy Lyons

So did you ever find the true story out of who did it?

00;20;08;26 – 00;20;33;26

Rob Wilson

No. Again, that’s why we charge the complicity. Yes, because and this was an interesting case. It’s when you have two people pointing the finger at each other, it’s fantastic for police. It’s like, Oh, they both admitted being there. One of them did it, The other one watched. It doesn’t matter to me. But again, you try to prosecute this and you might have two separate trials and burden issues.

00;20;33;28 – 00;20;35;19

David Lyons

Exactly. Which is a nightmare.

00;20;35;20 – 00;20;50;26

Rob Wilson

But you got to redact their statements any time they mentioned such and such. So when the jury hears the audio, there’s so many holes in it. I mean, they look at he’s like, why didn’t you ask this? It’s like, well, I did, but we can’t play it for you.

00;20;51;01 – 00;21;12;03

David Lyons

Well, any in the inference will be because you’re stupid. Yes, absolutely. In today’s climate. Yeah. Is that. Well, that’s simple, you know, so yeah, having had at least one, I’ve had more, but I had a big one one time where that was the case. Is that the hard thing for the jury, too, is that if they’re linear thinkers, yes, they’ve got to know.

00;21;12;06 – 00;21;30;25

David Lyons

And end up in my question and a white in and I remember talking to a reporter who covered the trial and we were in a gym one day and he said, you know, if it was me, I would have had to known who had the hammer in their hand because it was that and and Jonathan go forth at Tron in the nefarious black guy that never was there.

00;21;30;25 – 00;21;47;25

David Lyons

He threw another guy and that never existed. But that’s hard for a jury. And it’s hard when you’re doing that because when you’re testifying, it’s those are the nuances people will never understand. Probably when you have to redacted an act like that as a person doesn’t exist and in it you’ll look stupid.

00;21;47;27 – 00;21;54;18

Rob Wilson

You really do. Because like you arrested on that statement, it’s like, well, you didn’t hear 35% of it. Yeah. You know.

00;21;54;21 – 00;22;18;09

David Lyons

While, you know, a lot of people don’t like plea bargains, but a lot of times you take a plea on who you feel is the less culpable. And that’s tricky, too. Yeah, because we’ve put people, all of us poor people in prison before that maybe didn’t even put it pull the trigger. But you have to make a decision on Fisher in a heartbeat, because the power of that statement, even though they’re going to attack it, might get over those humps with.

00;22;18;09 – 00;22;21;24

David Lyons

Yeah, yeah. What a difficult thing for a jury to put to put it together.

00;22;21;28 – 00;22;41;20

Rob Wilson

It really is. And again, those trying those are nightmares and, you know, going into it when you make the arrest and it’s like I can imagine this thing three years down the road, the interview being cut to shreds, you know, being redacted and what are we going to be left with? And it was it was looking to be a nightmare.

00;22;41;20 – 00;22;51;22

Wendy Lyons

But, hey, you know, there’s more to the story. So go download the next episode. Like the true crime fan that you are.

00;22;51;24 – 00;23;25;03

David Lyons

The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at Murder Police podcast sitcom, where you will find Shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.

00;23;25;05 – 00;23;49;03

David Lyons

We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned For those that are hearing impaired, just search for the murder. Police podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.

00;23;49;06 – 00;23;52;17

David Lyons

And please tell your friends Lock it down. Judy.