Closing the 4-part series, David and Morgan talk about the prosecution and sentencing phase of the investigation, adding in a great deal of discussion of “why”. What do you think happened?
Show Transcript
Part 4 of 4
Morgan Bragg: There was some speculation. They had talked to an expert, the defense had talked to an expert, that suggested that this was some sort of drug-induced psychosis that could be triggered by the marijuana usage. We felt that was a little outlandish in the fact that she had smoked marijuana 30 hours prior to this incident.
Wendy Lyons: Warning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons: Welcome to The Murder Police Podcast. The Murder of Ronald Browning, Part Four of Four.
David Lyons: During the interview you talked about how she’d calm down a lot. Right?
Morgan Bragg: Mm-hmm.
David Lyons: Did she display much emotion in any kind of direction when she described the events? Did she display anger when she gets to certain parts, or was she matter of factual? How did that look on her demeanor?
Morgan Bragg: I would have to say throughout the whole investigation, even all the way through prosecution, she had a very self-centered approach to everything. She never, at any point, showed what I would consider to be remorse in any fashion. She acknowledged having done these things, but she always felt like something else had forced her to do it. Even throughout… One of the things that we do when it comes to prosecution time sometimes we’ll get jail calls or things like that and review these things. Even from the very get go of her being locked in this facility the only thing she’s talking about is, “This shampoo’s terrible. The food here is just terrible, Mom. You need to bring me better shampoo, bring me better food”. These sort of things. She never is talking about, “I can’t believe I did this thing”. Or anything of that sort that you would expect from a normal person. We never saw that from Camille.
David Lyons: Well the elephant in the room, and in that interview room that day too, is mental health. And I’m sure that started to buzz across your mind a little bit as a possibility.
Morgan Bragg: Oh, of course.
David Lyons: Because we can see it. I think it would be stupid not to look at it. And I always tell people that doesn’t stop you from talking to the person. You acknowledge it, probably you would be thinking about that. Because we’ve seen that too. Now we’ve seen people feign mental health issues on violent crimes, and usually they’re finally diagnosed as malingering, which is another fancy word for lying. But every now and then you find that, but definitely during the interview we’ve all had experiences where you’ve got something that’s like, “Eh, there could be something else on board on this”.
David Allard: And then I don’t know that we got into it necessarily in the interview, but something we considered along with mental health was intoxication impairment.
David Lyons: Yeah. Yeah.
David Allard: So we looked at those factors and later determined that she had used some marijuana the day prior and that had some paranoia from that use. Morgan actually interviewed another person that she’d been with that had used some of the same marijuana to see if there were any effects on her that were abnormal. Because we did know that she had been a marijuana user, I mean I believe she told us that at that time. She’d been in college. She had left home, went to college at Western University, and then had lived a unique life there for a short time before moving back here to Beckley. She had only been back here a short time prior to this happening.
David Lyons: Did the other person use marijuana with her have any odd symptoms or any side effects?
Morgan Bragg: That was one of the things that we wanted to check, obviously.
David Lyons: Sure. I love that. Yeah.
Morgan Bragg: So we actually spoke to her, and to our surprise she actually indicated that Camille had only taken one puff off of a mariajuana joint. And that they had received this bag and that this girl had actually smoked the entire rest of that bag and never had any symptoms or never any paranoia or any situation like that.
David Lyons: Good work. I like that. I don’t know if everybody would think to go back and do that. That’s actually pretty cool stuff. Yeah.
David Allard: Well, as you know, I mean you have to prepare for the defenses that are going to come. So we meet with our prosecutors, we brainstorm, we look at different avenues, and then we tried to counteract those defenses as best possible with interviews, clarifying interviews, and things like that.
David Lyons: Perfect. I mean really that’s good work. The same thing goes too… And of course this could come up. I’m going to assume as she went through the process she had mental health evaluations. Is that correct?
Morgan Bragg: Mm-hmm. She did. Yes.
David Lyons: Yeah. But in the beginning too, did you ever find out if she was being medicated at the time for anything or treated for any mental illness before hand?
Morgan Bragg: She was not. No, there was no indication of that. She had not received any kind of treatment of that sort.
David Lyons: Interesting.
David Allard: There was no known history with her that I can recall.
David Lyons: Now when you concluded the interview, how was y’all’s rapport with her? I mean when you left the room.
Morgan Bragg: I thought it was very positive. Yeah. Like I said, at that point she was very agreeable. She kind of laid it all out there for us. She was very nice when we left. We never had a crossword with Camille at that point after that.
David Lyons: I’d have to go back and just reasonably assume probably because y’all did some rapport building on the side of the road, and that’s so critical.
Morgan Bragg: Oh yeah.
David Lyons: So critical because it’s all about sitting down in that room and having a relationship with that person to where there’s some trust that comes out of it.
David Allard: Yeah. I think it’s a two way street. That’s one thing we work to educate our patrol officers on. A lot of times they’re responding in a chaotic situation and they respond with chaos, and we have to try to step aside from that. There’s nothing I hated more than having a search warrant or something and have a unit in there and they’re aggressive or verbally aggressive. And then I have to try to interview this person, which a lot of times works our favor, where the person offering him something, to drink something, to eat, being friendly.
David Lyons: “It’s been horrible, hadn’t it? Yeah. Well let me get you something to eat and drink, and you and me are going to get along differently”. Yeah. Amen. I’ll say back in my PD, I was proud of them because I don’t think that really ever happened. They got it. They could detach and stuff like that. I don’t think I ever had an instance where they [inaudible 00:06:36]. We have seen that before, there’s no doubt about that, in other places maybe. So you complete which I’d say is a good interview, I mean obviously. Especially when you get down to that point where somebody just starts talking, because that’ll take you off guard. You go into some interviews and you’re like, “Okay, here we go. This is going to be a marathon”.
David Lyons: Real quick anecdotal about how that’s different. I had beating death one time, and when I finally identified a suspect he did not speak English. So I had an interpreter in the room with me. And I remember talking to the interpreter… And this was a long time ago. He wasn’t really formally into it, but we got through it. But I remember telling him, “I’m going to do this. We’re going to read this thing. I need you to read for this as Miranda. I need you to be really berate him”. We did the whole thing. And I said, “Now listen, I’m going to get you something to drink. We may be in here for a while”. We get in there and he interprets and reads him the Miranda. And the suspect, I can’t understand what he’s saying, but he makes a sign of the cross across his chest and he says two or three things. And the guy looks over and goes, “Yeah, he said he fucked him”. Excuse my French. And I said, “What”? And he goes, “Yeah, he said he hit him. Let me ask him”. And he went right into it and I’m like, “Oh, well I’m glad. I told you we’d be in here a few hours”. But you’re grateful for those moments. And sometimes maybe it speaks to them a little bit.
David Allard: Sorry. I think it’s rare that we sit down with someone who is immediately openly honest. Almost everyone tries to minimize. Even if they’re confessing, they minimize so much. And they try to paint themselves in a light most favorable, and you have to pry it out and you have to confront them. I don’t really feel like we had to do that with her. In hindsight, maybe we could have done even more. But it was such a bizarre interview, and just the way she just provided all the information. And I never felt the remorse or anything to that nature, but it was definitely she was just laying out what happened.
David Lyons: I’ve always told people don’t ever confuse an admission or a confession with accountability or the truth. Sometimes it might happen, but you’re right David, it’s rare. And part of the secret in getting [inaudible 00:08:48] room is making whatever they’re going to tell you reasonable in their mind. I always said, “Did I have to open a window and take them through that window?”, which means I might agree with things, or you might agree with things that we don’t agree with. But at some point I think you’re dealing with narcissism, and you have to paint that whole thing about what works for them in that moment. And that’s the goal. So fantastic work on that. So you get what I’d say is a good interview. How do we move forward there on inbound for trial and things like that?
Morgan Bragg: Well actually the next step is we actually went out and tried to locate some surveillance video.
David Lyons: Nice.
Morgan Bragg: Because from the statements that she gave us, we determined certain things. One, that she had left house. The time she had left, we determined she jogged down the street. So we went back to Westwood Drive and we actually located residents had some surveillance cameras there. It corroborated the information that she gave, it showed that she was jogging down the street. We checked at a couple other places, tried to get video of her. Secured video from the hospital, from the jail. Those were all things that were done during subsequent activities. At that point it was kind of meet with our prosecutor and talk to her, tell her what we have, explain this situation. And then kind of get into the actual prosecution part down the road.
David Lyons: Who was the prosecutor? I’m going to give them a shout out.
Morgan Bragg: Yeah. At that point Kristen Keller had been a prosecutor for many, many years here. Just recently actually left, and now we have new prosecutor. But she was kind of the head prosecutor for what, 20 years? Probably even more. 30 years?
David Allard: I believe since ’82 was when she got hired, and she was the head prosecutor for a substantial amount of time. Just like Ray the DA [inaudible 00:10:27] him, there’s not a better prosecutor in this State than Kristen Keller. You definitely wanted her on your side when you were going to trial. She had a very eccentric mind. She was just very amazing. I would say the best trial attorney that I’ve ever seen. And she thinks of everything, every case law, everything. They spent, as you can imagine, weeks, maybe months preparing for this case with all the different meetings back and forth.
David Lyons: That’s a tight relationship to get ready for that?
Morgan Bragg: Oh yeah. Yeah.
David Lyons: Ray the DA, God rest his soul, we lost him about a year ago. I don’t think people from the outside understand how much work they’ll put you through for all the right reasons. And let’s be real clear too, it’s not always about driving home a slam dunk conviction, because that is part of it. But it’s the whole thing of exposing truths and documenting those truths, exculpatory information, the whole bit. Because just like you want to affirm your case up, you also want to document the things that somebody could accuse you of withholding. That’s a problem in some investigations. Sounds like she’s good news.
Morgan Bragg: She’s the best.
David Lyons: Sounds like she’s good news. So you start that process with her. And again, I was going to assume the mental health evaluations. Do you remember how those came out? Did they make any rulings?
Morgan Bragg: Yeah. She had been sent for two. The first one was defense led diagnostic process. They didn’t really come to necessarily a conclusion. So they decided to send her for another. And unfortunately this doctor, again, there was never really a definitive conclusion. There was some speculation. They had talked to an expert, the defense had talked to an expert that suggested that this was some sort of drug-induced psychosis that could be triggered by the marijuana usage. We felt that was a little outlandish in the fact that she had smoked marijuana 30 hours prior to this incident. But that was something that the defense had put forth, and unfortunately we couldn’t necessarily find a specialist that would counteract that or disagree. I think a lot of people were… It’s kind of in the state that we are now. We may never know, really, what caused her to act this way or to do these things.
Morgan Bragg: And there again, after she had done these things, I would describe her as pretty normal. I mean our conversations with her… After that visit to the hospital, we never had any more issues with her. She never was violent. She never was disrespectful. She was very polite and nice and docile. In the courtroom, shocking. You would see this girl that was accused of these things, and if you brought a lay person in that had not been involved they would never believe you. Because she was just so calm and nice and polite to the judge. It was shocking to see that side and knowing that she had been responsible for something of this nature.
David Lyons: They made a defense with that. But really what the mental health evaluations are for, in the most simplest terms, is what was their state when they committed the crime? Did they recognize they were doing it? And the other too is are they capable of participating in their own defense when it comes through? That’s kind of the two, and I’m oversimplifying those, but that’s kind of the two real things. But the other thing that weaves into it is that’s why everybody gets their own kind of piece of the pie to see how they can put icing on that cake.
Morgan Bragg: That’s exactly right.
David Lyons: Which is your job as an attorney. I’m not knocking if that’s your job.
David Allard: And the one thing to me that stood out is she attempted to cover up her crime, she was going to burn it. She knew that she may get caught and what she had done was wrong. She was unsuccessful in being able to burn it.
David Lyons: Huge.
David Allard: But I think that goes to some degree to showing that she knew, at the time, what she was doing was not allowed or was wrong.
David Lyons: That’s why that stuff’s important to have. And I agree that is what’s going on, is they’re looking at that whole thing of was I aware? Because there’s a big difference between somebody that, we’ve met them, that really truly have mental health issues that you could look at. And then they get a evaluated and you’re like, “That was out in space”. But those are rare. Many more people try to pretend that than actually have that. So did it go to trial eventually?
Morgan Bragg: It didn’t in the end. I should mention also that one of the things that we determined from the diagnostic interviews that she had done, and plus our kind of background investigations on her, is she’d been leading a little bit of a double life. We were a little surprised to see that, because we’d seen both sides of her. We’d seen her violent, but we’d also seen her in this docile state. And what we were able to determine is that when she went away to college, she had actually dropped out of college pretty early on, had been still receiving funds from her parents or from her mother as though she was going to college. She had started working in a gentleman’s club in the area near the college she was attending. Got involved with drugs. There were some accusations of prostitution, we didn’t ever verify that. But there was a lot of things that came out of those interviews that were not being portrayed to her family and to her the other individuals that knew her.
David Lyons: Did you ever get around the family enough to see how they responded to that?
Morgan Bragg: Unfortunately they didn’t have a whole lot of interaction with us.
David Lyons: No.
Morgan Bragg: Because they obviously were on different sides of the situation.
David Lyons: Sure.
Morgan Bragg: So we didn’t have a whole lot of interaction. But what we did have interaction with was some of the.. Because one of the things about it is Camille’s well known in a community. The pastors came forward, the council members from our local council came forward. All these people came to speak on Camille’s behalf, and I think a lot of what we found out is a lot of them were surprised by this information. And I think she lost a lot of support on that side once they did found these things out that she wasn’t quite what she had portrayed.
David Lyons: Yeah. They were probably taken off guard by that surprise. You probably saw that too with a lot of suspect’s families. That’s a hard hit.
Morgan Bragg: Absolutely.
David Lyons: I mean they’re dealing with so much. I always left a lot of room. They’re going to be angry with you and me and everybody and with your prosecutor, that’s natural because we advocate for the people we love. Right? But at the same time they’re dealing with something that’s significant as far as that shock that that person that they know and love, and in dealing with questioning themselves on that. That’s a hard ride to take, especially when this ugly opens up and they learn things like that. That had been very difficult on her family.
David Allard: And one thing I always try to impart, there’s no winners in these situations.
David Lyons: Never. Never.
David Allard: And the suspects side, the victim side, the families, these people have people that love them. The people that do horrendous things, a lot of times come from great people. And I think that’s the case here.
David Lyons: Yeah. She probably has a fine family and they’re suffering through it. Just I remember so many times watching that. I remember we had a guy that was tried as an adult that shot a liquor store owner and killed him. And I remember his grandfather, when we go to trial, you could tell he was pretty angry and stuff like that. And I remember one time, we didn’t debate but we were in the hall and I said, “Listen, just do me a favor and go in there and pay attention”. And the kid actually testified, which he had to, it was death penalty case. And believe it or not, he had kind of cleared a polygraph but he gets on the stand and says, “Yes, I pulled the trigger”. And it was sad because after the trial I see his grandfather out there and he is crying, and he looks at me and he gives me a thumbs up. And it’s like, I don’t think people understand that even though we’re in an antagonistic system, you actually to some degree you get a rapport with those families because they know you care about them, and they know that you know that they’re going through an awful circumstance.
Morgan Bragg: Oh yeah.
David Allard: I think that’s the key, is the compassion. And showing them that you understand where they’re coming from. And some of my best cases I would say, or the best officer was that family member of the suspect, convincing them to do the right thing. Or coming in and having a talk with him that led to them confessing after the fact.
David Lyons: Right. Yeah. And a lot of attorneys wouldn’t agree with it, and I know that you should never talk to the police. When we tell people in that interview room, I was always sincere. If you lay your story out, I’ll testify to it. I think the juries look at people differently. They’re not supposed to, but if you just said there was your arms crossed and never talk to anybody, that’s a different story. But that had to been a shocker for Camille’s family.
Morgan Bragg: Oh, no doubt. No doubt.
David Lyons: So it ended up not going to trial?
Morgan Bragg: It did not. No. There were plea negotiations that went on for a long period of time. Obviously with all the diagnostics testing that was involved and all the mental evaluations, it took a long time. She had hired a lawyer out of the Charleston area, he was one that worked pretty well with our prosecutor. In the end, those medical evaluations really became a problem. The mental evaluations. Because we couldn’t really have one final decision either way. And it led to some real risk to taking that case to prosecution, to trial. So what it ended up, they offered a plea to second degree murder and also to two counts of burglary for going into the homes in Mabscott. And at the end of the day, that was the plea that Camille accepted. It was set up to be a 40 year sentence for the murder charge. And then two, 1-5 sentences for the other charges. At sentencing that judge did not accept agreed plea deals. He still kind of kept some leeway in that. So he actually reduced her sentence, and it was reduced to a 30 year sentence and two 1-5s to run concurrent with that.
David Lyons: Yeah, that’s their prerogative. Any mention about mental health treatment or anything like that in that process?
Morgan Bragg: No. That’s probably the frustrating part of this is that she’s just locked up in a normal facility at this point in time, but I don’t know that she’s receiving any… She may. To my knowledge, she’s not receiving any specific-
David Lyons: And I’m going on the assumption if that was the case. I don’t want to over assume because, like you said, the diagnostics didn’t show that. A of course those negotiations are difficult because you’re working with a victim and surviving victim’s family. I mean they’ve got to be taken into consideration of that too. Where she housed?
Morgan Bragg: Right now, she’s at Lakin Facility here in West Virginia. It’s in Lewisburg area I believe. It’s a medium security female facility.
David Lyons: Well thank both of you for letting me come to Beckley today, and thanks for the hospitality to Beckley Police Department. We’re in, again, a beautiful building and a great conference room to do this. Morgan, thank you for the detail and more so for the diligence in this. Because again, this isn’t all about just putting people in prison, it’s about finding the truth. And to find the truth, you have to be detailed. So fantastic work, very articulate story. I think you got all the details out that were just fascinating. I literally was on the edge of my seat listening to this every time you brought something up, so thank you very much for doing this.
Morgan Bragg: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
David Lyons: Hopefully if we get other cases I’d like to have you back. And then my friend Dave, Deputy Chief Allard. Great to see you again. For people don’t know, the FBI National Academy is a 10 week almost life altering experience in Quantico that some of us get fortunate to go to. What 250 people from 26 countries, am I close on that?
David Allard: 47 States.
David Lyons: 47 States. And for what it’s worth, we all stay in touch on a social media app and everything so fantastic seeing you.
David Allard: Great seeing you. And we appreciate you traveling here for this and telling Mr.Browning’s story.
David Lyons: Yeah. Mr. Browning and his family. One of the things we like doing is offering them up for who they were. Just so they’re known as something other than just a crime victim or a number, because under national statistics that’s what they become. So thank you all again.
Morgan Bragg: Thank you.
David Allard: Thank you.
David Lyons: The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at murderpolicepodcast.com, where you will find show notes, transcripts information about the presenters and much, much more. We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for The Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast from. Make sure to subscribe to The Murder Police Podcast and set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop. And please tell your friends.
David Lyons: Lock it down, Judy.