The Murder of Todd Schumacher | Part 1 | Tuesday January 10, 2023
The Murder of Todd Schumacher | Part 2 | Tuesday January 24, 2023
The Murder of Todd Schumacher | Part 3 | Tuesday February 7, 2023
The Murder of Todd Schumacher | Part 4 | Tuesday February 21, 2023
Available on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/c/TheMurderPolicePodcast.
On January 18, 2015, family of then 40 ear-old Todd Schumacher went to his home to check on him, because he had not been feeling well and he was distraught over his missing dog. When they arrived, they found themselves in a horrific crime scene.
While one person was knocking on the front door of the house, another saw a person look out the window at the top of the door that appeared to be Todd’s boyfriend, Matthew. They knocked on the front door and the back door, but nobody answered. They went to the carport door, through which they could see splatters of blood inside. After they broke into the house through the back door, they found “blood everywhere’ in the kitchen.
They went to the bedroom and saw the “Please send to heaven Todd + Matt.” written in blood on the bedroom wall. Todd was lying naked on the floor “with chunks of flesh taken out of his body.” They felt Todd’s neck for a pulse and found that he was dead. Matthew was lying on the bed and fidgeting with something silver in his hand.
Join The Murder Police Podcast as lead homicide detective Rob Wilson details the investigation of this brutal domestic violence homicide, with curious ties to animal cruelty.
Transcripts
Part 1
Rob Wilson: That’s by far the most stab injury wounds that I’ve come across in over 20 years of investigating murders. A hundred times. Think about how difficult that is, or how long that takes. For listeners out there, just smack your hand against a table a hundred times, see how long that takes.
Speaker 2: Warning, the podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language, listener discretion is advised.
Wendy Lyons: Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast, The Murder of Todd Schumacher: Part One.
Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast, I am Wendy.
David Lyons: And I’m David.
Wendy Lyons: Well, David, we have with us today retired detective, Rob Wilson. How are you, Rob?
Rob Wilson: I’m doing very well.
Wendy Lyons: Thank you for coming back on our show.
Rob Wilson: Absolutely, anytime.
Wendy Lyons: We’ve had Rob here with us before on the case of Alex Johnson and Megan Liebengood. And now, we have Rob here with us on a 2015 murder of Todd Schumacher.
David Lyons: Is it Schumacher or ‘macher?
Rob Wilson: I think it’s Schumacher.
David Lyons: Okay, gotcha. We’re good. I just want to make sure, because it’s tricky on the spelling a little bit.
Wendy Lyons: Rob, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Rob Wilson: Absolutely. Was on the Lexington Police Department for 23 years. I believe, spent two and a half to three years on patrol, then moved into homicide where I believe it was close to 17, 18 years in active homicide, and then finished the last two or three years of my career running the Cold Case Unit.
Wendy Lyons: Nice. Are you enjoying your retirement days?
Rob Wilson: Very much so, yes.
Wendy Lyons: Well, I’m sure they miss having you.
David Lyons: Do you miss doing cold case work?
Rob Wilson: Yeah. Well, it was really challenging, because those cases are cold for a reason, and typically those are the more difficult cases. And as you know, we’ve had some really good detectives in the unit, and it’s fun on a couple of different levels, just the challenge to try to find the suspect after so long. But also going back and reading case files that belonged to Paul Williams, or David Lyons, and just always impressed with those people. The meticulous documentation that the really good ones do, I actually learned a lot of stuff reading through yours, and Paul’s, and Chris’s, and James Curless. So I’d always pick up little tidbits like, “That’s an interesting question they asked. I never would’ve thought of that.”
David Lyons: It’s funny when you look at older work, because I was the same way with John Bizzack. And I would read his and Dan Gibbons and things like that, and you pick that up too. And of course, the challenge with Paul Williams is it’s all in stone, those things are incredibly heavy to carry around.
Rob Wilson: Yeah, it took forever.
Wendy Lyons: Yeah, will yours isn’t too far behind.
David Lyons: [inaudible 00:03:08] probably chalk, or some kind of a burnt wood I think is what we used.
Rob Wilson: Yeah, we always joke that if Paul and Chris [inaudible 00:03:14] over to their search warrant, they were the first detective to do a search warrant in Pangaea.
David Lyons: There we go, exactly. Well, aside from that, not that it’s a contest, but do you have a rough idea how many cold cases you laid down or felt like the ball moved significantly forward before you left?
Rob Wilson: Yeah, I believe I put down three cold case murders before I left, and one kidnapping and rape. And I believe another assault first, so I feel really good about the work that I did in that short time period. But that was one of the hard parts about leaving, because I think there were a couple more that I could have done. And it was Matt Brotherton who just got promoted to commander.
David Lyons: Congratulations to Matt. Well deserved, long overdue.
Rob Wilson: Absolutely. Matt and I went through the academy together and spent over a decade together as partners in homicide, and this opportunity came up to retire, and I struggled with it. And he told me, “Rob, you’re not going to be able to solve them all. That’s why we have other detectives. You go, this is a good opportunity.” And it really did, because, man, I could have stayed there for a long time. That challenge, it’s fun to wake up in the morning and know that you’ve got a chance to right a wrong that’s been left undone for maybe a decade, two decades. Still got one in the works that I’m working with the Commonwealth on that maybe we do a direct indictment that’s been unsolved for over 20 years.
David Lyons: Incredible stuff.
Wendy Lyons: And I do have to say, you, I think, began working the early stages of another episode that we covered, the ex-husband of my best friend, who also was murdered this year, Angela Wooldridge, David Kelm. I think you started with that.
Rob Wilson: Yes, I touched base with the family on that one. Spoke with them several times, very nice family, I feel so bad for them.
Wendy Lyons: Yeah, and as you know, we’ve had them on here. They spoke so highly of you.
Rob Wilson: Oh, that’s nice to hear.
Wendy Lyons: And they were hoping that they were going to keep you.
Rob Wilson: Yeah, those are one of the cases that I had trouble with leaving, because they were such a nice family. And I think they had bad feelings towards a previous detective that handled the case. But he did a very good job of… there was only so much to go on in that one. I have my own feelings about what happened in that case, but could never, ever prove anything. And again, that was one that was still on my desk when I left, those are the ones that it hurts to walk away from.
David Lyons: And that pain that those families are going through, hopefully none of us ever experience that. I got used to the idea, and I thought it was part of the obligation to be that board for them, if they were frustrated, just let them take some of that frustration out on you. I can’t imagine the pain that they’re in, a difficult thing.
Good deal. Maybe we can come back on some of those that you laid down and get the files and do some shows on those. Especially, again, the art of pulling, like you said, one or two decades. We’ve done some other things on the show of late where we interviewed Cairenn Binder with the DNA Doe Project. An amazing thing. As a matter of fact, that’s our charity of choice. And the work that they do, simply identifying unidentified human remains, is beautiful work right there in and of itself.
Well, what are we going to talk about today? Give us a couple of sentences on what this case is going to be about.
Rob Wilson: Basically, it’s a domestic violence murder. The victim, Todd Schumacher, and his boyfriend, Matthew Donaghy. They had lived together for approximately five to six months, and things went really, really bad on the night of January 18th, 2015.
David Lyons: Gotcha. Was there anything else that stood out about it?
Rob Wilson: The violence. Mr. Schumacher was stabbed over a hundred times. That’s by far the most stab injury wounds that I’ve come across in over 20 years of investigating murders. A hundred times. Think about how difficult that is, or how long that takes. For listeners out there, just smack your hand against a table a hundred times. See how long that takes. And just to have the energy and the anger to keep going that long.
David Lyons: I was skimming through some news articles, and be honest with you, I didn’t read them in depth either. I like getting caught up cold with you all, I’ve learned that that’s [inaudible 00:07:53].
Wendy Lyons: Yeah, and as you know, I asked you, two nights ago, I said, “Well, tell me about this.” We were driving to dinner, and he said, “Nope, I want you to be surprised.” And I hate the element of surprise because I love knowing a little bit of detail. So I’m glad… well, I’m not glad in a way, because I still wanted the detail. But why don’t we just dig in. Tell us, I always love asking, what were you doing when this call came? Who found out about this to make the call? How did you get involved?
Rob Wilson: The patrol units were dispatched, I believe I said January 18th, 2015, around 7:00 o’clock at night. They were called to the residence, the victim’s sister had gotten worried that she hadn’t spoken to her brother in a while, he wasn’t answering his phone. So she went over there, nobody answered. She went in and saw the bloody mess that was all over the house, found her brother in the bedroom. And Matthew Donaghy, believe he was in the bedroom as well. She immediately called 911. The officers responded quite quickly, and I believe Mr. Schumacher was pronounced dead at the scene.
At that point, obviously the homicide unit is called out. I was not on call, but I was next up for the primary in the homicide investigation. So it’s 7:30, I remember exactly where I was, I was at BW3s, the playoffs were going, Green Bay was getting ready to play. I had just ordered my first beer, and my phone starts buzzing. I look down and see it’s Reid Bowles, who was a detective in the unit at the time. It’s like, “Reid and I are friends, but he shouldn’t be calling me at 7:00 o’clock on a Sunday.” So, I just sigh, and it’s like, “I know what this is.” Picked up, it’s like, “Hey, Reid.”
Wendy Lyons: [inaudible 00:09:35] the beer back across the table.
Rob Wilson: And he’s like, “Sorry, buddy.” And I was like, “Yeah.” He goes, “We have one. It’s over at (censored) Lamont.” Which was odd because that’s probably just a half-mile from where I lived at the time. So at first I was worried, we don’t know what kind of murder this is. Was it a shooting, a drive-by? Do I need to tell my kids to get in the basement or something like that? But he told me that it was a stabbing, we didn’t know a whole lot right now. They requested I respond to the scene, so I paid for my one beer that I didn’t drink, and responded to the scene. And they had already taken Matthew to the hospital at that point. He was having trouble breathing, or saying he had a heart issue, and he had some minor wounds on his hand, so he was taken to the hospital.
I learned from officers at the scene that he had stated that he and Todd were at home alone when two people entered through the back door and started yelling at Todd, and one of them attacked him with a knife. I was given that brief synopsis, but looked around at the scene and it didn’t add up. There was no knocked over furniture. I’d mentioned that Mr. Schumacher was a large guy, he’s 6’2, over 200 pounds, so there would’ve been tables turned over, chairs knocked over. But really all there was was a lot of blood. And there was a pathway from the living room, down the hallway, to the bedroom, you could see where it was literally a bloody body was dragged. So we knew more than likely that the attack took place in the living room-slash-kitchen area, and Mr. Schumacher was drug to his bedroom.
David Lyons: If we can go into the technical aspects a little bit too, we talked about the responding officers and starting there. If you’re in the homicide unit, what is the expectation you have when you arrive? What’s the general things that you prefer patrol to be doing or have done by the time you get there?
Rob Wilson: If there’s any witnesses, they don’t need to do a thorough detailed interview, but just get a basic story from whatever witnesses are around. Start a neighborhood canvas, if that’s the type of situation where that could be useful. And for them to have already contacted Forensic Services Unit to respond to the scene. We want them there as fast as we can because they have to process it before we can really get in there and start our investigation.
David Lyons: I gotcha. And I guess the coroner comes?
Rob Wilson: Yes, absolutely.
David Lyons: Did the coroner come to this one? Because he was transported to the hospital.
Rob Wilson: Well, the suspect, Matthew Donaghy, was transported to the hospital.
David Lyons: Thanks for straightening that out.
Rob Wilson: But yeah, the coroner arrived. And as you know, they run the scene until they decide to hand it over to us. They’re the primary investigators at any death scene in Fayette County.
David Lyons: Excellent.
Wendy Lyons: And then also, did you still have the sister there?
Rob Wilson: Yes, there was sister and some friends.
Wendy Lyons: Because I imagine that was probably a very upsetting scene for her, naturally. And so you had that to contend with as well as Todd.
Rob Wilson: It’s always tough to deal with family members of victims, but it’s especially difficult when they’re on the scene and see their loved one in the state that they’re in. It takes it up several notches about the grief, the anger, the sadness.
Wendy Lyons: And the confusion, why did this even happen?
Rob Wilson: Yeah. It’s one thing when we knock on a mother, father’s door in the middle of the night and sit them down and calmly explain things to them. But when you see your loved one basically butchered like that, it’s an image you’re never, ever going to get out of your head. And I really feel sorry for the family members that have to go through that.
Wendy Lyons: Did you have a feeling at that moment that his partner was the suspect? Did your gut tell you that that was the case here?
Rob Wilson: It was certainly a possibility. You never want to let your theory get ahead of the evidence. Sure, you’re allowed to have a gut instinct, but don’t pay too much attention to it. We’ve all had gut instincts and been wrong. You can’t help but develop a feeling, but never, ever let your theory get ahead of the evidence.
Wendy Lyons: At that point, I guess you dive into your investigation? Do you go ahead and interview the boyfriend at that point? Where do you take your investigation?
Rob Wilson: Well, it’d be different if we didn’t know where the potential suspect would be. We knew he was at the hospital with a Lexington police officer, so we knew he wasn’t going anywhere. So we coordinated with Forensic Services Unit to make sure that we got a lot of pictures, got a lot of things swabbed, or photographed, or fingerprints that we thought we might need. And we did quite a bit of that in this case, only because Mr. Donaghy’s version was that two unknown subjects came in. Obviously in that situation, DNA is very, very important. If we can get a DNA hit off skin cells on a doorknob that don’t belong to the victim, the residents of the house, that’s very useful. But as it turned out, when it turns into a domestic violence murder inside the residence, DNA is almost useless because you could expect to find victim, suspect’s blood, DNA, hair, skin cells, anywhere and everywhere in that house. But you always want to take caution and collect all the evidence you need, because you only get a crack at that crime scene once.
David Lyons: That makes a good point too, about keeping DNA in context. Because a lot of people look at it as the magic bullet. And it is, in some cases.
Rob Wilson: Yes, in certain cases, it’s fantastic.
David Lyons: But in cases like this, just back in that crime scene too, it enforces the reason why you don’t want people traipsing through that, because of the transfer theory. Especially if it had that much blood. [inaudible 00:15:33], I’m going to imagine that you probably couldn’t almost walk through there without [inaudible 00:15:36].
Rob Wilson: No, this is one of those where we were dressed up like CSI, we had the booties on and all that, because it was everywhere. You couldn’t help but come into contact with some blood on the floor, or on a table, or desk, or chair.
Wendy Lyons: At what point do you begin questioning Matthew?
Rob Wilson: He is released from the hospital, and he was only there for a short time, so we had him transported to headquarters where I was able to speak with him.
Wendy Lyons: And so, he stuck to his story of the two intruders?
Rob Wilson: Initially, yes. In that first go around in an interview, if they’re willing to talk, you let them talk. You let them tell whatever they’re going to say. And we call that a baseline statement. We’ll just let them speak, run on for 30 minutes if they want. Because in the back of our minds, we already know what the physical evidence is telling us at the scene, so we’re making mental notes and writing down notes as they’re talking that either supports their theory or contradicts their theory or reasoning of what happened. So, right from the get-go, it was fairly easy to pick up that he was making this stuff up on the fly about two invaders. So we let him tell his story, and then point out a couple of inconsistencies. And at that point he asked for a lawyer. And as you know, when they say that, it’s done.
But I always end the interview when they do that. It’s like, “Listen, we’re going to respect this. We’re going to terminate the interview. You’re going to be taken back to an holding cell. An officer will be by probably 20 minutes, and we’re going to transport you to the jail.” And he was like, “So I’m being arrested?” And I was like, “Absolutely you are.” And he’s like, “On what?” I was like, “Well, your story does not match the physical evidence at the scene. There’s no way two unknown intruders came into your home and did this. You already said that it was only you and Todd in the house, and these fabricated individuals, so that just leaves you. And this is your time, if you want to talk to us, I want to hear your side of the story. Because maybe it will benefit you, but this story about two intruders is nonsense. You need to help yourself. I’m going to put you back in that holdover cell, and if you decide you want to talk to me, you can knock on the door and I’ll certainly listen.”
So that’s what we did, we put him in the holdover cell. And probably about 10 minutes later, there was an officer back there, he knocked on the door and said, “I want to talk to Detective Wilson again. I want to tell him what really happened.”
David Lyons: Let me go to the layout a little bit, just so people can picture this. When you’re talking about interviewing them, and holdover cells, talk about the holdover cells, what they’re like, and then the interview rooms and what they’re like, and are they close to each other and things like that. If somebody had never been on the fourth floor, is what we called it, what’s that look like? And what’s the procedure for that?
Rob Wilson: Yeah, the Bureau of Investigations is on the fourth floor of Lexington Police Department’s headquarters. And you get off the elevators, and you can make a right into an office, and that’s where the homicide unit is. You can make a left, and you’ll go into general investigations where there’s cubicles of probably, Dave, 40 desks of detectives up there?
David Lyons: Probably about right.
Rob Wilson: And then we have some administrative offices. And along the back wall, we have three interview rooms, which are, there’s a table, couple of chairs, carpeted, fairly nice. But then you go further down the wall, and we have three holding cells, which is basically like a jail cell. There’s a bench, nothing else in there, and it’s a large steel metal door that will lock. We do have an eyehole for observation of the suspects. And basically, they stay there for a short period of time until an officer arrives to transport them to the Fayette County Detention Center.
David Lyons: Good. That way people can picture what this looks like when you’re just talking, instead of sitting around in a lobby or anything like that.
Wendy Lyons: So an officer hears him knocking, saying he wants to speak to you?
Rob Wilson: Yeah. So we bring him back into the interview room, start the recording again. And the first thing I do in a situation like that is, “Did I promise you anything? Did I threaten you? Did I coerce you in any way to make a statement?” Make sure that they’re on tape saying, “No, absolutely not.” “So you wanting to talk to me is completely you wanting to do this? I made no contact?” And get them to agree to that, that they want to make a voluntary statement. Because if you don’t do that, it’s going to get tossed in a suppression hearing on down the road.
Wendy Lyons: Yeah, especially since he had already said he wants to have an attorney present.
Rob Wilson: Exactly. So you have to be really careful in making that perfectly clear on audio or video that they weren’t promised anything or coerced in any way, and it was a voluntary statement on their behalf.
Wendy Lyons: How does he open it up with you?
Rob Wilson: He apologized for lying. He was scared. And then he went to, what typically anybody will do in that situation, a self-defense strategy. Basically bad-mouth Mr. Schumacher, said he was violent and mean all the time, attacked him, and he was scared. And that evening, they got into an argument and Mr. Donaghy went into the kitchen to grab a knife and held it behind his back in case Mr. Schumacher came back to confront him. He stated Mr. Schumacher did, came at him, and he pulled the knife in self-defense, saying, “Don’t come near me, don’t come near me.” He said Mr. Schumacher took the knife from him, and then that they wrestled for about five minutes, and Mr. Donaghy got the knife back and stabbed him once, maybe twice. We know that’s a lie because we know how many times he was stabbed.
But, and David, you know sometimes you don’t get full on confessions with those admissions. So now we’ve got him admitting on tape that, “I did stab Todd.” Doesn’t matter if it was a hundred times or one time, we’ve got him putting a knife into our victim. And from that story, also, we get rid of the two intruders. Mr. Donaghy admits to us that, “I’m the only one in the house. And I stabbed him once.” Who did the other 99 stabbings? That was an important step, getting over that hurdle, to admitting that he put a knife in his hand and then stabbed Mr. Schumacher.
David Lyons: Did he have any injuries, through this five minute wrestling match?
Rob Wilson: Yeah, he did. They would be what we call defensive wounds, that’s what he stated. But what they were were slices along the hand-
Wendy Lyons: Of the knife going down?
Rob Wilson: Yes. As I’m sure a lot of people know, once you stab somebody a couple times, that blood gets on the handle and makes it very slick. So when you repeatedly stab someone, your hand will slide down over the blade causing these lacerations on your hand. A true defensive wound is if you’re putting your hands up and an attacker is coming with a knife, you’re going to have deep puncture wounds. We’ve seen them sometimes go through the hand. These were lacerations, so just due to experience in previous murder investigations with sharp instrument objects, typically, if there’s multiple stab wounds, the suspect will have wounds on his hands from that hand sliding down across the blade. And there were also injuries to his wrists, which looked to be attempted suicide strike.
David Lyons: How old were those?
Rob Wilson: I think he tried to do them that night. What we found out later was, we believed that the attack took place in the living room, and Mr. Schumacher was drug into the bedroom and up on the bed, and Mr. Donaghy laid with him in the bed for several hours while he was dead.
David Lyons: Did he have blood on his clothing that would lead you to that too?
Rob Wilson: Yes.
David Lyons: And another thing too, it comes back to his own estimation of five minutes, and of course, that’s an estimation, of a wrestling match like that. You’re right, one, five minutes, just like a hundred stab wounds, is a long time.
Rob Wilson: When you’re fighting someone, it’s an eternity.
David Lyons: Yeah, we know that from experience. And then the idea that in that five minutes, you’re right, parts of that house would have been wrecked. There’s no way you’d do that like, “We’ll draw a circle and fight.” It’s going to be all over the house, probably.
Rob Wilson: Yeah. And what we tended to believe, strangely enough, there was blood all over the floor and on the carpet and the walls, but it was spatter and pooling, but just a little bit of pooling. I remember when we flipped the cushions over on the couch, the couch was fine, there was no blood on the couch seats. We flipped them over, there was a ton of blood, a substantial amount of pooling on those cushions. I believe that he attacked him right there, and that’s where the majority of blood loss came.
Wendy Lyons: And he flipped the cushions back over so you wouldn’t see it?
Rob Wilson: Yeah.
Wendy Lyons: Did you ever at any point tell him it’s not one or two stab wounds, it’s in fact a hundred?
Rob Wilson: I didn’t know at that time how many it was, it was only till after the autopsy that we learned. But you could tell it was-
Wendy Lyons: More than one or two?
Rob Wilson: Yeah, at least three dozen that I could see just visually.
David Lyons: And that comes back to that thing we’ve talked about before, where you go in that room sometimes with that much. And the struggle with that is, what can you do with that much? But the big thing, like you said, is that I don’t think I ever got told the real truth. You probably [inaudible 00:25:20].
Rob Wilson: I never have.
David Lyons: But man, if you can make that window where they do something as simple as start the process and everything, but you don’t have everything like they have on TV. CSI hasn’t done their 28 minute DNA test yet. And definitely, the autopsy’s not going on down in the garage. We know that’s not happening.
Rob Wilson: Yeah, we’re not getting DNA hits in five minutes.
David Lyons: Exactly. First of all, any idea how long they’d been a couple?
Rob Wilson: About half a year, according to relatives and Mr. Donaghy himself.
David Lyons: Any legal history of domestic violence, any orders in place?
Rob Wilson: No.
David Lyons: I was always curious about that.
Rob Wilson: There was an interesting issue about this case, the couple shared a dog, it was primarily Mr. Schumacher’s, named Monroe. And there was an argument, this was a couple of weeks before the murder, Mr. Donaghy had gotten angry at Mr. Schumacher, taken his dog and put it in the oven and turned the oven on.
Wendy Lyons: Hey, you know there’s more to the story, so go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.
David Lyons: The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons, and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well at murderpolicepodcast.com, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters, and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more, and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop. And please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.
Part 2
00:00:01:05 – 00:00:22:11
Rob Wilson
Like I say, he he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours. I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found written in blood. Please send to heaven. Todd and Matt.
00:00:22:17 – 00:00:50:14
Wendy Lyons
Warning: The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listen. Our discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, the murder of Todd Shoemaker. Part two.
00:00:56:13 – 00:00:58:18
David Lyons
Well, first of all, any idea how long they’d been? A couple?
00:00:59:13 – 00:01:03:17
Rob Wilson
About half a year, according to relatives and Mr. Donahue himself.
00:01:03:21 – 00:01:07:27
David Lyons
Any legal history of domestic violence? No. I was always curious about there.
00:01:07:27 – 00:01:26:13
Rob Wilson
Was an interesting issue about this case. The couple shared a dog. It was primarily Mr. Schumacher’s name, Monroe. And there was an argument. This was a couple of weeks before the murder. Mr. Donahue had gotten angry at Mr. Schumacher, taken his dog and put it in the oven and turned the oven on.
00:01:27:15 – 00:01:31:11
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow. Yeah. So he killed the dog?
00:01:31:16 – 00:01:44:07
Rob Wilson
No, they got the dog out in time. Then the animal control got involved and oddly enough, worked with us on the homicide. I’d never work with animal control, in my estimation.
00:01:44:07 – 00:01:44:19
David Lyons
Yes.
00:01:45:05 – 00:01:46:01
Rob Wilson
They know their stuff.
00:01:46:06 – 00:01:51:14
Wendy Lyons
So did Matthew stab the dog in the same time as he was stabbing Todd was? Or was the dog?
00:01:51:27 – 00:01:53:13
Rob Wilson
We. We never found Monroe.
00:01:54:12 – 00:01:55:02
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow.
00:01:55:07 – 00:01:58:05
David Lyons
So do you remember who you worked with? With animal control?
00:01:58:09 – 00:02:18:17
Rob Wilson
No. She was fairly new, and I was super impressed because we had a suppression hearing in this case, like we always do. I forget what evidence they tried to suppress, but she showed up at the suppression hearing, and I was like, Hey, what are you doing? He’s like, I no, I just want to learn because I may have to go through one of these one time.
00:02:18:17 – 00:02:29:26
Rob Wilson
And it’s rare that people will take time out of their current job in assignment to go watch something else in hopes of learning something to maybe advance their career. So it was a very I was very impressed with her.
00:02:30:13 – 00:02:51:08
David Lyons
I’m trying to think of how to pronounce her first name, and I feel awful about this because she’s probably listening. JJ And yes, yeah, yeah. And I feel awful about that because I’ve actually been in communication with her on the case. Oh, really? And where I do is I think she’s agreed to do it is to come in and do an epilog on it on animal abuse and how that translates.
00:02:51:08 – 00:02:52:02
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00:02:52:03 – 00:03:03:08
David Lyons
Because she is really sharp. The author a little bit. When there were some conversations when I was on the command staff about warrant service and things like that, and we were trying to coordinate and you know, in your right, she’s she’s a detective.
00:03:03:09 – 00:03:22:06
Rob Wilson
Yes, she I remember she, I think, gave me a call on down the road after that, just asking for advice and very impressed with her because, heck, at the time, we we try to get young detectives to come watch testimony, you know, like, I’m busy. I can’t make it. But for her to. Certainly not obligated in any way.
00:03:22:06 – 00:03:25:29
Rob Wilson
That was just her own self motivation to learn things and become better at her job.
00:03:26:00 – 00:03:42:11
David Lyons
Yeah. Hopefully we get her on here. Yeah, it would be a great epilog to this to kind of fold into that because there are relationships between people who do very evil things to animals and and what they might do to people. So and I think she’d be the ideal person from animal control to come and speak of that.
00:03:42:11 – 00:03:46:28
Wendy Lyons
So yeah so Monroe was never found. Did you did you ever ask Matthew about Monroe?
00:03:47:00 – 00:04:11:23
Rob Wilson
Yeah, He. He made a comment about the dog. Must have gotten out at some point, but like I say, he, he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours. I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found written in blood. Please send to heaven Todd and Matt.
00:04:12:08 – 00:04:13:08
David Lyons
Oh, Lord. Where was that?
00:04:13:08 – 00:04:15:03
Rob Wilson
Written it on the bedroom wall.
00:04:16:19 – 00:04:17:09
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:04:17:15 – 00:04:48:20
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So, Mr. Donoghue has had some real issues. Um, as Dave and I were talking before the podcast started, that he had a juvenile record that was sealed that I couldn’t get into. And when they’re sealed like that at such a young age, typically it’s something really bad. And I wound up of course this made the news is most homicides in Lexington do.
00:04:48:27 – 00:05:05:29
Rob Wilson
I ran into a schoolteacher. Did I ask if I was the one handling that case? And I said, yes, I was. I was like, well, how do you what’s your interest? She’s like, Well, I was a teacher of Matthew, don’t I? And she’s like, Yeah, I had to give statements about something that he did that I’m still not allowed to talk about.
00:05:06:17 – 00:05:17:05
Rob Wilson
And she said that as a young child or student, this is elementary school. She was scared of him. Wow. So he had some severe mental issues.
00:05:17:21 – 00:05:32:20
David Lyons
He’s he had mental issues. But to keep it straight a little bit, yeah. They he was evaluated because we’ll get to this in a minute. But I just wanna make sure we’re clear on the idea that that that was sorted out in court before he actually stood trial obviously.
00:05:32:20 – 00:06:00:07
Rob Wilson
Yeah. It’s just a and Dave, we dealt with people with mental issues and you can be a full blown paranoid schizophrenic. Those are pretty easy to spot. But it’s the sociopaths, the borderline personality disorders that you start to pick up on if you dealt with them enough. And just an immature guess, I’d say he has borderline personality disorder, very manipulative, very intelligent.
00:06:01:00 – 00:06:23:29
Rob Wilson
He played the victim role very, very well. And luckily we had the evidence at the scene because, again, you can do this for 50 years and get a read on somebody and be wrong. That’s why we need evidence to convict people. You know, I don’t ever want to go on my gut and I don’t like not believing individuals I’m interviewing because I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again.
00:06:24:07 – 00:06:39:06
Rob Wilson
But it’s so nice to have that evidence tucked away from the scene that, you know, that you can, you know, poke holes in their story with. But now he was very convincing. He played the victim well, very, very well. But I just knew he was lying.
00:06:40:11 – 00:06:48:17
Wendy Lyons
Wow. So you get your confession from him and I’d say admission. Yeah, admission. And then and.
00:06:48:24 – 00:06:52:28
David Lyons
Well, in the interim, too, after that, you talked about the autopsy. Did you attend the autopsy?
00:06:52:29 – 00:07:10:00
Rob Wilson
I did not. We were still doing stuff with the investigation. That’s typically the next day. So forensic service detectives go up and that’s when they told me the count was over 100. So I was I was floored at that. And he had them all over his body from the top of his head to his feet.
00:07:10:09 – 00:07:21:05
David Lyons
Did they have any information in this goes back? A So if you don’t remember, that’s okay. Do they have any information about death or did the knife help make contact? You know what I’m talking about. Is it? Yeah, a lot of times no serrated sense.
00:07:21:07 – 00:07:34:18
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it was. We believe the murder weapon was just a regular kitchen steak knife, probably like, five inches long. And several of the the stab wounds, especially to the abdomen, were very, very deep.
00:07:34:24 – 00:07:37:25
David Lyons
Was the murder weapon at the scene? It was. Okay, cool.
00:07:38:09 – 00:07:49:13
Wendy Lyons
And also, you know, I was wondering with that many, you know, how long did Todd endure this before he passed?
00:07:49:13 – 00:07:52:00
Rob Wilson
There’s no way of knowing because hopefully the first one was.
00:07:52:00 – 00:07:52:18
Wendy Lyons
You would have.
00:07:52:19 – 00:07:58:26
Rob Wilson
Got an artery and he bled out quickly, because if not, you know, that’s that’s a horrible, horrible, torturous.
00:07:58:29 – 00:08:02:09
Wendy Lyons
Way to to it’s something to endure that’s awful.
00:08:02:09 – 00:08:19:14
Rob Wilson
Well, and again, I do believe just because of the size difference between the two, um, he attacked him while he was laying on the couch or sleeping. So that’s where he got in. Probably several, um, devastating wounds. And then the rest was all just rage.
00:08:20:14 – 00:08:29:01
David Lyons
It coming back to the interview, did he ever move off that last point of self-defense and a couple hits? Did he ever hint or anything? No.
00:08:29:01 – 00:08:51:18
Rob Wilson
Um, it wound up when we were starting to confront him about the multiple stab wounds. Like, where did this happen and why? Why was the back of his calf stabbed? Um, he again, like, I’m just so exhausted. I probably do need an attorney at this point. So he lawyered up for the second time. And at that point, yeah, he he didn’t want to talk anymore.
00:08:51:18 – 00:08:59:03
Rob Wilson
So we respected his constitutional rights and shut the interview down, filled out the paperwork for murder, and sent him down to the Fair County Detention center.
00:08:59:05 – 00:09:03:02
David Lyons
Yeah. Before you sent him, did you all, like, scissors, clothing or anything? Is that a practice?
00:09:03:05 – 00:09:26:12
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we did that. And during the interview, you can hear he’s complaining because we have bags over his hands that are taped, so he can’t wash off any blood or anything like that. So we took precautions with that. Once he got to the hospital, his hands were were bagged by FSU and yeah, we certainly we had a jumpsuit for him, got him in a jumpsuit and took all his clothes for forensic examination.
00:09:26:27 – 00:09:27:10
David Lyons
Gotcha.
00:09:27:20 – 00:09:31:12
Wendy Lyons
Did he ever say why he dragged tired all the way back to the bedroom?
00:09:32:00 – 00:10:04:06
Rob Wilson
Uh, he loved him. Just wanted to be with him. So is moment where he just snapped for whatever reason, and we’ll never know. But then reality sets in after that. His five minute version of a struggle, and he probably realized that I can’t lie my way out of this. So he went back there, lied with him, and probably did some thinking about how can I concoct a story around this in the best he could come up with, you know, to unknown intruders.
00:10:04:06 – 00:10:10:05
Rob Wilson
There is no way he could clean that house, get rid of the body and say, Nah, Todd, he just left to go get Cigarets. And I never saw him again.
00:10:10:05 – 00:10:21:10
David Lyons
Yeah, because the couch cushion flip was kind of a modest attempt, as it is. Kind of. Yeah, right. To be honest, probably that, too. Is that the idea of lying with him for that long term?
00:10:21:17 – 00:10:32:09
Wendy Lyons
Well, I’m just thinking the schematics of it with the size difference. How did he drag him that far and get him up in the bed? Yeah, that’s six, seven inches difference in height. Mm hmm.
00:10:32:13 – 00:10:52:16
Rob Wilson
Well, dragging him wouldn’t have been too hard, but getting him on the bed probably would have been a struggle because horrible to say, but dead weight is difficult to to move around. But yeah, it’s and that’s where I think he probably did a halfhearted attempt to take his own life too. He saw there was he’s probably there’s no way he’s getting out of this.
00:10:53:08 – 00:10:59:00
Rob Wilson
But then I think he was surprised by the family showing up and had to go with that that story.
00:10:59:05 – 00:11:00:11
Wendy Lyons
To reconstruct it.
00:11:00:11 – 00:11:01:00
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:01:10 – 00:11:03:24
David Lyons
So he had handed that story to the family, I guess.
00:11:03:24 – 00:11:08:04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, to the family and then to the initial officers at the scene.
00:11:08:04 – 00:11:17:15
David Lyons
It so the autopsy gets completed, you get that new information. Part wasn’t a surprise because of the amount of damage there and whatnot. Neat that you recovered the knife in the scene.
00:11:17:15 – 00:11:24:26
Rob Wilson
Yeah. It’s again, I just think I would imagine he was just overwhelmed with trying to figure out a way out of it.
00:11:24:26 – 00:11:35:10
Wendy Lyons
Well, I’m sure the knife was probably the least of his thinking. Where is he going to put it or hide it? I mean, unless he’s going to vacate the the residence to take it somewhere. I mean, there’s only so many places you can hide that night.
00:11:35:10 – 00:11:59:27
David Lyons
Yeah. It, it, yeah. They don’t think that through too good. Have only seen one time we had a murder of a Willard Street I think one time and then they actually called a guy and he reminded me of a wolf in Pulp Fiction. He was a cleanup artist and he. He had cleaned the apartment. It was a stabbing so well that the first run through FSU really didn’t detect anything until they got a statement and then went start pulling the toenail where it was out and stuff.
00:11:59:27 – 00:12:00:11
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
00:12:01:00 – 00:12:16:14
David Lyons
But I remember Craig Sorrell interviewed him and it was like a it was like talking to Wolf and folks. And he’s like, he goes, first thing I told him, get all the silverware. And they’re like, Why do I have to throw all the silverware, everything else? Because there’s one piece missing. You get all the silverware. And it’s funny, but not funny.
00:12:16:14 – 00:12:22:24
David Lyons
But that’s a real life thing, too. So it anytime you do that, you have to be willing to take those extra steps, I guess.
00:12:22:24 – 00:12:42:29
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Now that’s I remember I think it was the Alex Johnson case where he was in the garage. That’s where they put him in the barrel to transport him down to the river. And we did some swabs to see if we could find any blood. And there was such a small amount on the railing of the garage door.
00:12:43:13 – 00:12:48:14
Rob Wilson
And I think Marcy Adkins at the lab, who you all had on before, who’s fantastic, who’s.
00:12:48:14 – 00:12:49:01
David Lyons
Amazing.
00:12:49:08 – 00:12:51:27
Rob Wilson
She solved a lot of murders for me that I take credit for.
00:12:52:02 – 00:12:52:19
David Lyons
Sure. Yeah.
00:12:53:04 – 00:12:54:01
Rob Wilson
As all cops do.
00:12:54:01 – 00:12:54:08
David Lyons
Yeah.
00:12:54:09 – 00:12:55:19
Wendy Lyons
She’s like, love hearing that.
00:12:56:03 – 00:12:57:00
David Lyons
And she will.
00:12:57:02 – 00:12:57:19
Rob Wilson
Yes, she.
00:12:57:19 – 00:12:57:26
Wendy Lyons
Will.
00:12:57:26 – 00:13:12:26
Rob Wilson
Marcy, Marcy in the lab has been so good to me over the course of my career. So many people. Matthew Clements, who’s in Ballistics, you know, I could call them at any time. And if it was legit enough reason, they jumped me to the it’s close to the front of the line as they could.
00:13:12:28 – 00:13:27:03
David Lyons
That’s a relationship that you give people and it makes her. Yeah, she’s going to be back and a bell. Breslin will be back and we’re in. Try to get him through when we’re done and cry or weep and in but Bill and Marcy have agreed to do one and I’m I can’t disclose what it’s about but it’s a serial offender.
00:13:27:09 – 00:13:28:19
Rob Wilson
Yeah a very scary guy We.
00:13:28:19 – 00:13:39:00
David Lyons
Have very spooky And she is brilliant. Yes. She has the ability to I think for our audience, especially as she can take that into layman’s terms so quickly and make people understand.
00:13:39:01 – 00:13:47:27
Rob Wilson
What Marcy was. She’s one of those where she could have easily translated, transferred from the lab and she could have been a homicide detective in a very good.
00:13:47:27 – 00:13:51:10
David Lyons
Absolutely. Yes. So her linear and analytical thinking is right?
00:13:51:12 – 00:13:53:07
Rob Wilson
Yes. She would have been fantastic at that job.
00:13:53:22 – 00:13:56:02
Wendy Lyons
She’s patting her own back right now, and she should be.
00:13:56:06 – 00:13:57:21
Rob Wilson
Yes, sure. Absolutely she should.
00:13:57:21 – 00:14:20:24
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. So we get we get to the autopsy, we recover the knife and everything, and and he’s done making no statements after that, correct? Yeah. And that gets tricky. A lot of people don’t know. Maybe we’ll do an educational show on Fourth Amendment and then moves and, you know, first enforcement, foremost Fifth Amendment, Sixth Amendment, all that kind of it’s it’s kind of convoluted as to how it gets more difficult to interview somebody longer there in in their first couple of weeks.
00:14:21:20 – 00:14:32:06
David Lyons
I guess what we’re talking about now is what what kind of things went on in the aftermath after he goes to jail? What walk us through what the investigation looks like in the things that you’re doing to tie this up.
00:14:32:06 – 00:14:56:21
Rob Wilson
Well, this one is actually really short and simple. Those domestics typically are you’re not having to run down alternative suspects or anything like that. Like I mentioned before, we swab the heck out of the house. Turns out once he admitted that it was just he and Todd and he was the one that stabbed him all that blood and swabbed kind of became useless because we know the blood belongs to the victim.
00:14:56:21 – 00:15:03:20
Rob Wilson
Todd. And if there’s fingerprints on things belonging to Matthew Donahue, then that doesn’t tell us anything. He lived.
00:15:03:20 – 00:15:13:01
David Lyons
They’re useless until you get on the stand. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. And then when you get cross-examined as to why you didn’t do it. Yes. So it’s perfunctory to some degree. Yes.
00:15:13:11 – 00:15:36:24
Rob Wilson
Do it. And you’re always I had a murder case where we only collected 15 items and only sent off two or three items to be tested because it was a domestic as well. And I got grilled on the stand for cross-examination. I didn’t send enough off to the lab, already had my mind made up, stuff like that. And it doesn’t matter if I sent off 99 things to the lab, they’d say, Why didn’t you send off a hundred?
00:15:37:11 – 00:15:41:23
Rob Wilson
You know, it’s just a tactic that they use. And I understand they’ve got a job to do, right?
00:15:41:24 – 00:15:42:14
David Lyons
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:15:42:14 – 00:15:47:24
Rob Wilson
As long as you can articulate why you sent something off or why you didn’t, you’re fine.
00:15:47:28 – 00:16:06:29
David Lyons
Right? It’s it’s funny to how we’re talking about a quick case because it’s it’s so isolated. And we were just listening to the the Culpable podcast the other night, Wendy, and season two where they’re talking about the murder of Brittney Sykes in Ohio and really good investigators. You can tell it’s an unsolved case, but I think they’ll get there.
00:16:06:29 – 00:16:30:15
David Lyons
But one of them was talking about the challenge of a whodunit when what people think or tips or conjecture in theory, once that lands, because they’re talking in that case about thousands of tips. Yeah, the guy that killed it, they allegedly killed the four kids in Idaho. I think they when they when they talk about having thousands of tips, I don’t think some people understand that that’s a thousand things.
00:16:30:15 – 00:16:31:25
Rob Wilson
That’s a thousand interviews.
00:16:31:25 – 00:16:47:13
David Lyons
That’s it at least. Yeah. And every one of them has to have a beau around them. Yeah. And that that’s a big deal that I always try to get across to people is a tip is something that might move. But geez, or Pete, don’t ever confuse that for a theory you had. Yeah I mean, don’t don’t don’t paint that in a different way.
00:16:47:13 – 00:17:09:24
Rob Wilson
Well, I’m sure you had some cases. I’ve had several where you get to a point in the investigation where you kind of hit the end of the road and it’s like, should we take this public, you know, put it on the news because you need their help, but you only want to viable tips because once it goes out that you will, you’ll get 100 or 200 leads and you have to follow up on every single one.
00:17:09:24 – 00:17:11:02
David Lyons
Yeah, they’ve all got to be wrapped up.
00:17:11:02 – 00:17:23:22
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Because if you don’t that one, if you have 200 tips and you only do 199, by the time it gets to trial, those defense attorneys will be convinced that that one person you didn’t do was the real killer in we’ve wrongly arrested their client.
00:17:24:01 – 00:17:39:18
David Lyons
That’s even if it’s an unequivocal yes. I mean, it’d be neat for people to experience that to be on the stand when that happens. But even if it’s an unequivocal I did it and the evidence is there, that’s their job. And, you know, we’ve got great ones in town. I’m sure I’ll bring down our defense attorneys more than once and I’ll continue.
00:17:39:18 – 00:17:45:23
David Lyons
Yeah, they’re amazing people, but it neat stuff. So in that case. Yeah, that wraps up pretty quick then.
00:17:46:02 – 00:17:56:23
Rob Wilson
So yeah, the investigation part is actually in. This one’s probably done in 4 to 5 days and that’s all the paperwork and everything, sending stuff off to the lab. Um.
00:17:57:07 – 00:18:04:28
David Lyons
So you get to kick your feet up on the desk because, like, obviously there’s nothing else going on in town, right? Absolutely. That’s it. Like maybe two or three years, you’ll have it. I’m being facetious.
00:18:04:28 – 00:18:05:24
Wendy Lyons
Of course you are.
00:18:05:24 – 00:18:06:13
David Lyons
Exactly.
00:18:06:14 – 00:18:32:09
Rob Wilson
That is a then, you know, there’s the gallows humor in homicide. You have to have it. But it’s a good feeling when like you’re next up and you finally get one ends, like, okay, this isn’t a whodunit. I can solve it, wrap it up pretty quickly. And then I go to the back of the line, you know, and that’s maybe you get lucky and your number is not called again for three months, four months.
00:18:32:21 – 00:18:40:25
Rob Wilson
So, you know, you’re not busting your butt on this unsolved murder because those are the worst. When you get an unsolved and you’re still killing yourself and then you get another one.
00:18:41:04 – 00:18:54:09
David Lyons
Which is the nature. Yes, that’s it. That’s where all that loose ends. I think about land speed record for one was a derby day where a guy got beat to death with a two by four, a third straight. And I think I was able to be back home in about 4 hours.
00:18:54:13 – 00:18:55:04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, those are nice.
00:18:55:04 – 00:19:08:07
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. Had some some stuff to do afterwards. But I had somebody in custody, I had statements, I had the physical evidence recovered and we got to it. But yeah, that never happened again. And you’re right. That’s the raking leaves on a windy day yet always coming in.
00:19:08:07 – 00:19:14:04
Rob Wilson
It’s a really good analogy because it it just doesn’t stop. You just hope for a breather from time to time.
00:19:14:17 – 00:19:30:04
David Lyons
And I think if somebody gets into the business, I think it’s a mistake they might make it. Don’t ever think you’re going to be done and kind of take it just it’s the nature of the beast. But when you do leave to this day and I’ve been gone a long time, I still will be out doing something and I’ll think about one of them that didn’t lay down.
00:19:30:04 – 00:19:33:21
David Lyons
You just always like, if I could get back and do this, I’d never leave you.
00:19:33:26 – 00:20:06:16
Rob Wilson
I’m pretty lucky in that I think I’ve only have two unsolved in my career and I put them. I work them to exhaustion. Yeah, like it’s just so I’m at peace with that. But I still get I’ve been gone over a little over a year now, and there’s still some PTSD. Like when I hear a certain phone, a ring type that that was my ring when I was in Homicide at 3 a.m., I’d hear The Darling, and if I hear that exact ring, I just like it takes me back and I’m not happy about it exactly.
00:20:06:26 – 00:20:25:14
David Lyons
But I will say this I kind of miss it enough to where? Like, when we’re talking about David Callum’s family or we’ve met the Hastie family, which is south, a beautiful people that have a an adult son. We covered Michael Gourley that went missing and hasn’t been seen and heard foul play all over that. There’s also a part that makes sure.
00:20:26:05 – 00:20:28:01
Rob Wilson
You never gets away.
00:20:28:01 – 00:20:45:16
David Lyons
And that that’s an inside thing that you’re thinking. Wired Or like if I’m listening to a good podcast myself again, I’m going to pick culpable because it’s really good. The entire time. I’m thinking, Boy, I would probably think about this. Yeah, it would be an avenue. So it’s it’s fun to think about, but you don’t have to go in and do it and you’re not, but you’re not get paid for it.
00:20:45:16 – 00:21:07:09
Rob Wilson
So I think Travis Holt, who’s a really good detective, I think he’s running cold case now. Right. Very sharp guy. And I’m sure he’ll do great at it. But I have seen other departments have a former homicide detectives come on as consultants and Florence Weathers is out there listening. You know, I’d be certainly happy to come back and review some cases because it is fun being part of it.
00:21:07:19 – 00:21:13:03
Rob Wilson
I just wouldn’t be the main one responsible. I’d just give some ideas and maybe some guidance and see where it goes.
00:21:13:03 – 00:21:31:11
David Lyons
Yeah, I won’t name any names, but I did get hit up by somebody several months ago and got to love him to death and he’s not there anymore. But he had an idea of having a an event where a lot of us going back as far back as we could get together, spent an entire day and just talk about what’s on that shelf.
00:21:31:13 – 00:21:37:13
David Lyons
Yeah. And I was like, brilliant. Well, that won’t happen. No, it’s like. But it was a neat, neat concept.
00:21:37:16 – 00:22:01:19
Rob Wilson
Well, when they asked me to take over the Cold Case unit, I had the idea that because I think at the time we had 50 maybe unsolved murders going back to the seventies or eighties, what I wanted to do was take six weeks, not do a damn thing, but read every case file and put them in categories. It’s like, okay, these are potentially DNA cases, right?
00:22:01:20 – 00:22:20:05
Rob Wilson
Okay, we’ll set these aside and when I get to them, I’ll go through all the evidence and send a ton of stuff off to the lab. These are pounding the pavement cases like we need to reinterview some people, maybe some new ones that they missed. They go over here and then there’s some that no fault of any detective.
00:22:20:05 – 00:22:37:06
Rob Wilson
Sometimes the bad guy wins, they get the breaks, and there’s just hardly any sort of ability to those and set those aside so you can work on the ones that actually have a chance of getting solving. First thing you do is you send all those off to the lab and hopefully you get a phone call or two and six months.
00:22:37:06 – 00:22:51:16
Rob Wilson
It’s like, Hey, now this, this belongs to so and so, you know, and there’s the low hanging fruit, as they say. Sure. You know, it’s like, give me those any day of the week. I don’t need to beat my chest and say how great of an investigator I am saying, Now you give me a DNA hit and I’ll go put the cuffs on.
00:22:52:01 – 00:23:01:14
David Lyons
That and look at what it does for the family. Absolutely. I mean, that and it it yeah. Whether it’s low hanging fruit or hanging fruit, I think that the name of the game is a game is to see how many dollars you can get.
00:23:01:14 – 00:23:31:04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we just I just finished up a couple pled guilty to a cold case murder that happened in 2010. Um, but, yeah, that’s when I made contact with the victim’s daughter. I knocked on her door and told her who I was, and she was like, Don’t get me involved unless you believe you can solve this. Cause I’d already come to a certain amount of peace with it, right?
00:23:31:05 – 00:23:49:24
Rob Wilson
I don’t want to live through it again if nothing’s going to happen. And that’s tough because I had it’s not like I can’t promise you anything. All I can promise you this. I’m going to give it my all and I’ll keep you in the loop every step of the way. And I was I was fairly confident. I knew who did it.
00:23:49:24 – 00:23:59:10
Rob Wilson
And, you know, we had some avenues to go to get some some information. And luckily we were able to make it happen. But yeah, she was she was scared that I was opening up the case again, actually.
00:23:59:10 – 00:24:04:12
David Lyons
But everybody metabolisms metabolizes that a different way. And I could see that I could see where that.
00:24:04:13 – 00:24:19:14
Rob Wilson
Yeah, she’s like, don’t make me go through it again if nothing’s going to happen. Right? So that was a real relief off my shoulders when we finally got the the arrest of the two individuals. And yeah, she was very grateful and, and also frustrated that it took 13 years, you know, absolutely crazy.
00:24:19:17 – 00:24:32:23
David Lyons
Well, let’s go back to this one. Sure. It didn’t take 13 it thank God for the family on that is where do we go now if a pretty, pretty quick investigation get some things back some lab work. You got your autopsy reports and everything. What happens next?
00:24:32:26 – 00:24:39:12
Wendy Lyons
Hey, you know, there’s more to the story, so go download the next episode. Like the true crime fan that you are.
00:24:39:12 – 00:25:12:08
David Lyons
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at Murder Police Podcast sitcom PM, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.
00:25:12:22 – 00:25:36:09
David Lyons
We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired, just search for the Murder Police podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast. Please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.
00:25:36:22 – 00:25:40:03
David Lyons
And please tell your friends, lock it down, Judy.
Part 3
00;00;01;25 – 00;00;32;02
Rob Wilson
I have a great respect for the criminal justice system and the jurors that have to sit through, they got this one wrong. They believed his story that he was the victim, that the true victim was mean and abusive and attacked him and he was only acting in self-defense. And, you know, the arrogance like, okay, if you’re acting in self-defense, maybe five stab wounds and then run out the back door, you know, stabbing him over 100 times, dragging him into bed, writing in blood, send us to heaven.
00;00;33;04 – 00;00;39;11
Rob Wilson
You know, just they just bought his act this morning.
00;00;39;16 – 00;00;58;02
Wendy Lyons
The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Todd Schumacher. Part three and.
00;01;13;04 – 00;01;22;03
David Lyons
Is a Where do we go now if pretty pretty quick investigation Get some things back some lab work. You got your autopsy reports on everything. What happens next?
00;01;22;11 – 00;01;50;03
Rob Wilson
Well, we just everybody out there is not familiar with the court system. I place a charge of murder Within a week. We go to district court and have what’s called a felony preliminary hearing, where I will give up, give testimony probably 4 to 5 minutes. The defendant’s attorney gets to ask me some questions. And then at that point, the judge in district court decides that there’s probable cause for an arrest and at that point, it’s sent up to the circuit court level and goes to grand jury.
00;01;50;18 – 00;02;12;15
Rob Wilson
Now, grand jury has to be done within 60 days of the arrest. So as soon as we get the probable cause hearing over with, I make contact with the Commonwealth Attorney’s office, find out who my prosecutor is. We’ll go over the case and then set a date for the grand jury. And the grand jury is just 12 individuals and the prosecutor is in there.
00;02;12;15 – 00;02;32;25
Rob Wilson
And then they call the witness, which will be me in this case. And I basically just tell a story. There’s no defense attorney in there to cross-examine me. It’s just to present the information to the grand jury. And their job is to decide if there is enough evidence there for a trial jury to hear the case. And it takes Nana to 12 of those jurors to get it passed over to trial.
00;02;33;16 – 00;02;49;17
Rob Wilson
So once that 60 days is over and you get the indictment, it could be anywhere from a year to three years to four years before this case hits a trial. And I believe this one was fairly quick. So we went to trial probably within 18 months.
00;02;50;01 – 00;02;50;09
David Lyons
Of the.
00;02;50;09 – 00;02;50;22
Rob Wilson
Murder.
00;02;50;22 – 00;02;51;06
David Lyons
Yes.
00;02;51;14 – 00;02;54;21
Rob Wilson
So yeah. So and then then we had a trial.
00;02;54;21 – 00;02;56;24
David Lyons
Yeah. And tell us about that experience.
00;02;57;16 – 00;03;31;26
Rob Wilson
Well, like I said, Don, I had gone with the self-defense claim. And again, just the for me, the inconsistencies in the scene, he said that he fought with this 220 pound man who honestly outweighed him by £85. And if you’ve ever fought anybody, you know what the difference of 85 pounds is and that he only had a couple of nicks on his hands and he wrestled and got the knife back, he’s going to have some I’m not saying he can’t do it, but he’s going to have some severe injuries in obtaining that knife back from that six foot two, 220 man.
00;03;32;14 – 00;03;55;00
Rob Wilson
Um, but this is one of those and Dave and I have talked like I have a great respect for the criminal justice system and the jurors that have to sit through, they got this one wrong. They believed his story that he was the victim, that the true victim was mean and abusive and attacked him and he was only acting in self-defense.
00;03;55;18 – 00;04;17;19
Rob Wilson
And, you know, the arrogance like, okay, you’re acting in self-defense, maybe five stab wounds and run out the back door, you know, stabbing him over 100 times, dragging him into bed, writing in blood, send us to heaven. You know, just they just bought his act and, you know, so this is the only time one or two times I’d say just the jury got it wrong.
00;04;17;29 – 00;04;20;00
Rob Wilson
They saw he was convicted of manslaughter.
00;04;20;06 – 00;04;29;04
David Lyons
That happens. I always said that there’s two times of the year that you don’t want to go to a jury trial and that’s a couple of weeks for Thanksgiving and a couple of weeks for Christmas. Am I right or wrong?
00;04;29;06 – 00;04;30;02
Rob Wilson
You’re absolutely.
00;04;30;02 – 00;04;56;11
David Lyons
Right. I in a super compassion. I remember I had an assault first where a young man had been beat severely, his head pounded on the concrete and he his neurological deficit was incredible. He couldn’t even testify. He lived in a different state. And I’ll never forget that they came back with a misdemeanor version of guilt and in to listen to everything in the end, it was like you have to have the mental agility of a small soap dish to go there.
00;04;56;11 – 00;05;11;03
Rob Wilson
Yeah, I mean, so yeah, in that example, they knew that he was guilty of attacking this man or assaulting him, but it wasn’t severe enough to make it a felony. You know, if he did it, he did it. And then the injuries are what they are that almost takes it out of your hands.
00;05;11;04 – 00;05;11;22
David Lyons
He was if you.
00;05;11;22 – 00;05;14;09
Rob Wilson
Believed he did it, then he’s guilty of a felony assault.
00;05;14;09 – 00;05;20;25
David Lyons
He had this kid had lost vision and one eye and everything. It it was horrible. So, yeah, I respect the system, too.
00;05;20;26 – 00;05;21;26
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;05;21;26 – 00;05;41;23
David Lyons
But I’ll tell you, I told you before and I’ll just give a recommendation if anybody wants a good book on this. It’s called Guilty in the Collapse of Criminal Justice by Judge Harold Roth Whacks. Go get the book and read it. And he told you before, too, that he was a defense attorney? I think in New York. He was a chapter president for the president, for the ACLU for years.
00;05;42;06 – 00;06;03;13
David Lyons
And he got on the bench and had a 180 degree turn because he got to he got splashed with all of that reality. And for example, he doesn’t believe in unanimous jury verdicts in criminal trials anymore because he said a holdout juror in Judge Rothwell said this, and he cites Kentucky cases where he says they the holdout juror, never decides on the case facts in the case.
00;06;03;24 – 00;06;12;16
David Lyons
He cites a Kentucky case where when they polled the jury, the one woman that wouldn’t go with it on a robber said he just looked too handsome to be a robbery suspect.
00;06;13;02 – 00;06;15;03
Rob Wilson
And they were amazing.
00;06;15;09 – 00;06;37;25
David Lyons
They were so guilty. The collapse of criminal justice. He’s deceased. I wish I got to I think where the D.A. spoke to him one time. Oh, really? Yeah, but pretty impressive guy. But a we have a fantastic system. Anyway, now people are talking about reforming the criminal justice system and in different ways. But boy, there’s a lot of victims are left without justice, too.
00;06;38;03 – 00;06;42;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah, and I know it’s set up to it’s best to let ten guilty man go for his.
00;06;42;19 – 00;06;42;29
David Lyons
First.
00;06;42;29 – 00;06;46;05
Rob Wilson
One. And I do believe that I could change that.
00;06;46;05 – 00;06;46;25
David Lyons
I’d go with that.
00;06;46;25 – 00;07;08;19
Rob Wilson
Yeah, but it’s especially in today’s climate, getting 12 people to agree on any topic. All right. Is darn near impossible. Yeah. You know, and then you throw in situations where, again, you’re appealing to people’s compassion and stuff like that. They don’t want to be responsible for sending someone away for 40 years.
00;07;08;20 – 00;07;12;18
David Lyons
It’s tough, especially in a death penalty case. Yeah. To meet a juror after that and what they thought.
00;07;12;18 – 00;07;39;05
Wendy Lyons
But I think what’s frustrating about that is that it is hard to send them away. However, I just wish they put their feet in the victim’s family shoes. That’s what that does to the victim’s family, who knows? It’s just a misdemeanor. No, it’s just a manslaughter when it’s clearly was a murder. And in that case, overkill for for Todd.
00;07;39;05 – 00;08;02;26
Wendy Lyons
And it’s frustrating. And I always say, you know, when they when they say and of course, it’s, you know, people’s opinion on death penalty or on how they choose the jury to go or their decisions. But I just think if people would think if that were their family or their loved one, would you be okay with that small of a sentence?
00;08;03;01 – 00;08;17;01
David Lyons
Well, and it comes back to to the same people that we have an immense amount of respect for the defense attorney. Sure. And that that is what they get paid the big bucks for sometimes. No bucks at all. Yeah. And the ones we do agree that we go out and have a drink with, you know, in a minute.
00;08;17;01 – 00;08;20;20
David Lyons
And I love them to death. That’s how the system works. Yeah.
00;08;20;20 – 00;08;29;23
Rob Wilson
And it’s when I was young and naive, I was like, how, how do defense attorneys convince 12 people that this person’s innocent and you really don’t need to do that?
00;08;29;24 – 00;08;30;11
David Lyons
No, you don’t.
00;08;30;12 – 00;08;47;08
Rob Wilson
You just have to get one person to believe you. And it’s a hung jury. And then there’s going to be a plea or, you know, you try it again and hope for a better jury pool. But yeah, now they just have to convince one person on there that there’s reasonable doubt. And I think that reasonable doubt gets abused a lot.
00;08;47;08 – 00;08;50;25
David Lyons
Well, it’s it’s like everything else that it’s. Yeah.
00;08;51;03 – 00;08;56;19
Rob Wilson
Reasonable doubt isn’t anything’s possible. That’s it. You know aliens could have come down to. Can you disprove that?
00;08;56;29 – 00;08;57;15
David Lyons
That’s true.
00;08;57;16 – 00;09;03;02
Rob Wilson
So it’s people take that beyond a reasonable doubt way to literally, I believe.
00;09;03;07 – 00;09;04;25
David Lyons
Do you remember what the jury came back with on.
00;09;05;16 – 00;09;07;01
Rob Wilson
I think the ten years on Main.
00;09;07;01 – 00;09;09;04
David Lyons
One, which that’s nothing in Kentucky.
00;09;09;05 – 00;09;13;12
Rob Wilson
Yeah I believe he’s out or he’s not he’s in a in a hospital somewhere.
00;09;13;12 – 00;09;17;04
David Lyons
Yeah it yeah they just don’t stay in very long Now.
00;09;17;04 – 00;09;22;04
Wendy Lyons
Did you have contact with Todd’s family or his sister who found him after that?
00;09;22;09 – 00;09;46;25
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we stayed in contact with him. But we have a great program with at the police department now. But also it started with the Commonwealth Attorney’s office because the victims advocate and they are responsible with keeping the victim’s family in the loop about court dates. And so we’re kind of freed up to do investigative work, but we certainly make sure that the victims families are taken care of and informed.
00;09;46;25 – 00;09;51;29
Rob Wilson
We update them what’s progress is on the case and such. So whether we stay in touch with them.
00;09;54;08 – 00;09;59;12
David Lyons
In the aftermath. Thinking back on on this case, is there anything that you would have done differently or.
00;10;00;10 – 00;10;06;16
Rob Wilson
I don’t think we could have. It was a pretty straightforward, I thought, a simple case of murder.
00;10;06;17 – 00;10;08;00
David Lyons
And you remember who you worked with on it.
00;10;08;21 – 00;10;09;15
Rob Wilson
B.J. Carter.
00;10;09;21 – 00;10;10;16
David Lyons
Okay, good news.
00;10;10;16 – 00;10;30;00
Rob Wilson
Yep, absolutely. Red Bulls was out there. The patrol officers did a really good job. I believe Officer Taylor was out there. They did really good preliminary interviews and did excellent right up to where I could refresh my memory going back on the case file about what he told them as opposed to what he told me. So, yeah, just yeah, good work all around.
00;10;30;00 – 00;10;33;00
Rob Wilson
And it’s it’s not odd for the election police department to do good work.
00;10;33;06 – 00;10;45;02
David Lyons
I know people would think we’re in a war and everything, but I never in the entire time, I never had a bad experience. I had never like I hear her. I travel a lot to hear horror stories and I’m like, What? You know, Yeah, it’s got great people.
00;10;45;06 – 00;11;09;10
Rob Wilson
I had a commander will say, Commander Matt Brotherton again, we’re talking just the other day about our travels where our cases led us in Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Tampa, Washington, Baltimore, New York. When we’re starting now, it’s like we’re pretty good agency. But when you get to visit these other agencies, you realize how good Lexington has it.
00;11;09;11 – 00;11;15;14
Rob Wilson
I know we are one of the best police departments in the country, and I say that with complete confidence.
00;11;15;14 – 00;11;24;12
David Lyons
Yeah, I remember back in the day I went in, I won’t say where. I mean, Schoon went to another agency and we had the start of the murder book, and I looked over and said, What’s that? Yeah, okay.
00;11;24;17 – 00;11;29;07
Rob Wilson
Some of it’s like terrifying. Like, But you run a murder investigation.
00;11;29;20 – 00;11;51;17
David Lyons
You know, in their defense, it’s because there’s an we can just hit this little, little spot with it. Is that it so much? And law enforcement is is learning at the coattails of my own. Yes. So I give a wide breadth. I’m not being critical of it. But it the reality of it is, is that if there’s one thing in law enforcement that just universally needs is training, training, training, training.
00;11;51;17 – 00;12;14;24
David Lyons
And it’s incredible, especially when people talk about impacting budgets and police departments, which is kind of the thing last few years. It’s like, okay, I mean, the first thing that goes when the money gets tight in a police department is training. Yeah, it’s it’s an la carte. It’s you get the minimum you need and everything. But when the budget gets tight, the very thing we need to probably be better and more confident is the first thing you go, Yeah.
00;12;14;24 – 00;12;22;12
Rob Wilson
And then after that overtime gets tossed and you try working a murder on 40 hours a week, it just doesn’t get done.
00;12;22;19 – 00;12;29;10
David Lyons
Oh, he’s just a if anybody. Another book was a David Salman homicide. He was. Yes.
00;12;29;11 – 00;12;32;01
Rob Wilson
Homicidal all year on the killing store. Like, great.
00;12;32;01 – 00;12;37;16
David Lyons
Oh, good. Yeah. The ten rules of Homicide. And yeah, one of them is that a an open murder case is a.
00;12;37;26 – 00;12;38;13
Rob Wilson
Monetary.
00;12;38;14 – 00;12;53;08
David Lyons
Monetary. But I remember back in the day in a unit that a major or and I think Fran Root in come in one day and say okay guys and girls we’ve got to cut the overtime back and it’s like you just whistled for the Grim Reaper. Yeah, it was like as soon as I’d say that and I’m. I’m making light of it.
00;12;53;08 – 00;13;03;03
David Lyons
It was, yeah. If you want to bring tragedy into your community, just talk about that. Because it was like it rained every night that night. So. Yeah. Did this stuff cost money?
00;13;03;05 – 00;13;21;08
Rob Wilson
Yeah, but you’re right about the just riding on the coattails of the ones that came before you. I mean, think about how far back that goes. You use mentioned frame rate. Mm hmm. There’s a train route, then there’s Danny Gibbons, then there’s you guys and James Careless and Paul Williams. Chris going over. Then I come along. So that’s you getting close to 40 years of just good quality.
00;13;21;15 – 00;13;45;09
David Lyons
And one thing we’re working on a little bit is I want to go back even further to Barney Kimmelman. Oh yeah. And keep going back that the people that Barney and and their names are zipping right out my head. I love dropping names on here because they’re fantastic people. But Barney in them really go back another generation and the holy cow, they can talk about that murder or that family guy killed that preacher’s family.
00;13;45;09 – 00;13;49;00
David Lyons
That’s a long time ago. Yeah. And, well, dang, all that one for now.
00;13;49;01 – 00;13;51;08
Rob Wilson
Oh, is that the one out Russell Cave Growing cell?
00;13;51;08 – 00;13;51;17
David Lyons
Yeah.
00;13;52;11 – 00;13;53;29
Rob Wilson
That’s probably one of the worst ones I’ve heard of.
00;13;54;00 – 00;14;02;11
David Lyons
Yeah. Oh, just brutal. Awful. But we’re going to leave alone because somebody that’s in this business that we respect a lot, I think is taking a peek at that. And we’ll leave it at that.
00;14;02;12 – 00;14;04;23
Rob Wilson
Good. Yeah, I’ll be I’ll be listening in on it.
00;14;04;23 – 00;14;06;24
David Lyons
Yeah. And I’ll tell you, I just. I want a hat tip.
00;14;06;29 – 00;14;07;20
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;14;07;20 – 00;14;25;06
David Lyons
And put the pressure. But they will knock it out of the park when they do it. Great. And they know I’m talking about problems. So they do. I’ll tell you after we’re done here. So he goes, Probably out. Wouldn’t look probably out. I mean, the reality of it is, is that it doesn’t take long. Doesn’t take long, especially on those things.
00;14;25;26 – 00;14;44;27
David Lyons
What if if somebody was going to be interested in getting into the murder cop business, what’s a few things that you would suggest them? Let’s say, like they’re a patrol officer and they’re out earning their bones because in Lexington, as a matter of fact, you can’t go to a specialized assignment by contract until three years, which makes all the sense in the world, actually.
00;14;44;28 – 00;14;45;28
Rob Wilson
Absolutely does.
00;14;45;28 – 00;14;48;02
David Lyons
What would what would you tell somebody? Yeah.
00;14;48;16 – 00;15;12;26
Rob Wilson
Well, first off, those people that are in college thinking about entering into a career in law enforcement, you don’t necessarily need to major in criminology or police administration. Election police department will teach you what they think you need to know. Um, we’ve told people to get a degree in English. Learn how to articulate your thoughts in paper in testimony.
00;15;12;27 – 00;15;13;05
Rob Wilson
Here we.
00;15;13;05 – 00;15;13;12
David Lyons
Go.
00;15;14;00 – 00;15;31;12
Rob Wilson
But once you’re on the department, which again, when I decided I wanted to be a police officer, I wanted to be a homicide detective right off the get go. And I was really bummed that I knew I was going to have to do three years of patrol looking back, I wouldn’t trade those three years for anything. I learned so much.
00;15;32;17 – 00;15;52;24
Rob Wilson
But for new patrol officers out there that are wanting to get into homicide investigation, go up there and introduce yourself, tell them that this is what you want to do. Ask if they could hang out. And it’s like I already O’s starts Friday. Do you mind if I come up Shadow you guys, we just never had that happen.
00;15;53;06 – 00;15;55;08
Rob Wilson
No, I mean, I did. Um.
00;15;55;16 – 00;15;58;16
David Lyons
It was very rare. It really was. It was very.
00;15;58;16 – 00;16;10;06
Rob Wilson
Rare. But I mean, Gough, I’m a veteran detective in some 26 year old kid on patrols, spending time on his day off to watch me and ask me questions. He’s already got the battle. Have one.
00;16;10;10 – 00;16;10;25
David Lyons
There we go.
00;16;11;02 – 00;16;31;22
Rob Wilson
You know, just that initiative and that drive and making it known that that’s what you want to do. And then make sure I don’t care if it’s a stolen lawnmower report that you’re taking. Make it a good one, because we read all these reports and we may not recognize if it’s great or really good, but we will recognize if it’s crappy.
00;16;32;20 – 00;16;51;15
David Lyons
We are told that day one right. And I even was told that on really crappy reports that they would hang them up and investigations. And I remember thinking, nobody does that. And and I got up there. Yeah. And it was like it was like a mural. Yeah. And it’s like the wall of shame kind of. Yeah. So that that’s a driver.
00;16;52;17 – 00;17;14;12
David Lyons
Before we close to one more thing too, because you did cold cases and this is a sad passion of mine. I’m pretty interested in. What would you tell a citizen detective, a lay detective, a an Internet sleuth? Because I personally believe there’s space for them in this whole game. It’s just frustrating as the finding it because the time and I’ve seen some beautiful work done.
00;17;14;29 – 00;17;24;13
David Lyons
What would you tell somebody who is was doing lay investigations like that on the side? What advice would you have them for improving a relationship with a detective? That’s work in a case.
00;17;24;27 – 00;17;29;05
Rob Wilson
That’s touchy because, as you know, a lot of detectives are very territorial.
00;17;29;06 – 00;17;29;20
David Lyons
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
00;17;29;21 – 00;17;48;16
Rob Wilson
I don’t want anybody looking over my shoulder second guessing what I’ve done. But you have to make contact with that primary detective if you’re like, Well, call them grassroots detectives and citizen detectives make contact. And it’s like, Hey, I’m really interested in this. I found some stuff I’m going to if you’d like, I’ll forward it to you. And if I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.
00;17;48;22 – 00;18;17;24
Rob Wilson
And there’s starting to be specialty fields like genealogy. Sure. I mean, that’s I worked with one or two of those, and that’s a lot of work that they put in that I don’t know how to do, nor do I have the time. So if they’re in that type of field, please reach out to your local police department or homicide unit and let them know that you’re you know, your skills are available and more than likely free of charge because the department’s not going to offer up, you know, pay money to basically private investigators.
00;18;18;09 – 00;18;28;07
Rob Wilson
The department has its own investigators and expects them to do the job. But there’s a certain skill set that citizens in certain fields can have that I don’t possess.
00;18;28;12 – 00;18;29;01
David Lyons
And time.
00;18;29;01 – 00;18;29;24
Rob Wilson
And time, I.
00;18;29;24 – 00;18;35;05
David Lyons
Think the biggest thing is time. It’s a it’s a that their imagination and time can do wonderful thing.
00;18;35;05 – 00;18;55;26
Rob Wilson
And I say make contact with the primary investigator. One thing out of courtesy but to spend some time talking to him so he doesn’t think you’re a nut job because there are those out there that give other citizen investigators a bad name and you have to wade through those. If my phone rings, I’m going to pick it up and listen to somebody.
00;18;55;26 – 00;19;16;28
Rob Wilson
I always will, because I’ll take any information anybody wants to give me if if it turns out to be not useful, then I wasted a little bit of time. But you got to turn over every stone and just, you know, present yourself in a professional manner and let them know that you’re there to assist. Because, I mean, good detectives will take whatever help that you can provide.
00;19;17;17 – 00;19;20;03
David Lyons
100%. When do you got anything? Because we just.
00;19;20;03 – 00;19;41;00
Wendy Lyons
I was just going to say it’s no different than someone who has a tip on a cold case or an active, active case. You know, we always say it may be that one little piece of information. And we said that on David Crumbs. Someone knows something and it may only be something. So my nut yeah, that one little piece may break it wide open.
00;19;41;00 – 00;19;41;10
Wendy Lyons
Yeah.
00;19;41;17 – 00;19;56;09
David Lyons
You know, sometimes it’s a phone call after the event that you can’t connect and it can be so simple. Hold this bag. Yeah. Do me a favor and go to my house and get this. Or can I borrow your car? How many times have we seen that with a borrowed car and. Yes. Can I park my car here?
00;19;56;09 – 00;20;05;22
David Lyons
We went with that. With the one with Billy and Paul. Is it gay? Can I stop this car here? Well, it’s a go for salvage style. Little things like that just. Just can make a big difference.
00;20;05;22 – 00;20;13;15
Rob Wilson
Yeah, And people out there don’t know. It’s like I heard this, but it’s probably nothing. Please take the time and call because you do not know.
00;20;13;24 – 00;20;15;08
David Lyons
Assuming somebody else has done it.
00;20;15;09 – 00;20;33;07
Rob Wilson
That’s a big thing in cold cases. Yeah. Um, and it’s no fault of him that I’ve done it myself. I like. I’ll read through. Sounds like. Huh? Why wasn’t this person interviewed in I’ll go back and interview the persons like now some detective came to me about nine years ago and talked to me, but they didn’t document it because it wound up being nothing.
00;20;33;23 – 00;20;38;07
Rob Wilson
But you still have to document because it’s a box that needs to be checked.
00;20;38;07 – 00;20;43;26
Wendy Lyons
I always say in my line of work, it’s not written down. It didn’t happen with anything.
00;20;43;29 – 00;20;44;16
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;20;44;16 – 00;20;46;27
Wendy Lyons
You know, it’s so important to to document those.
00;20;46;27 – 00;20;55;10
David Lyons
Yeah. Get on a stand with one of these really good defense attorneys in town, the ones that have got a couple that are interested in coming and doing the show. Really, Which would be neat.
00;20;55;13 – 00;21;01;17
Rob Wilson
That’d be a fun one to do a roundtable. Yeah, With a prosecutor or a defense attorney. A detective, you know.
00;21;01;22 – 00;21;03;19
David Lyons
Yeah. We’ll just get a ring. Yeah.
00;21;03;25 – 00;21;05;18
Wendy Lyons
Let them all go at it, because they will.
00;21;05;18 – 00;21;20;06
David Lyons
They can hit the bar outside and we can load everything up, and it’ll be. And thank God we’ll have video of it. Yeah. But the reality of it is, is that I’d like to get them to come on and talk about just like you talked about your job is to defend somebody. And let’s for argument’s purposes, you know they did it.
00;21;20;11 – 00;21;28;24
David Lyons
Yeah. And because a lot of people are like, how can you how can you do that? Well, somebody has to. Yeah, right. I mean, it’s how this it separates us from across the world.
00;21;28;25 – 00;21;40;13
Rob Wilson
And a lot of people don’t get that. They think the defense attorney’s job is to get a guilty person off. You know, their job is to make sure that their client receives a fair trial. And here it’s.
00;21;40;13 – 00;21;41;03
David Lyons
It. They’re all there.
00;21;41;05 – 00;21;43;29
Rob Wilson
And you have to have that. I’m in complete support of that.
00;21;43;29 – 00;21;44;05
David Lyons
Yeah.
00;21;44;08 – 00;21;48;19
Rob Wilson
So that’s not their job is to get guilty people off. They just have to defend their client.
00;21;48;24 – 00;22;01;08
David Lyons
That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s what it’s all about. Well, good to you. That was fantastic. I think we got too many prayers to Todd’s family absent, especially with the extra anguish of dealing with with the discovery and everything.
00;22;01;08 – 00;22;03;13
Wendy Lyons
Just as well. And this sister walking in on that.
00;22;03;13 – 00;22;03;29
Rob Wilson
Horrible.
00;22;04;03 – 00;22;15;04
Wendy Lyons
Had the misfortune of walking walking and Angie’s and that as I said on that podcast I did on her. And that’s something that I’m sure his sister sees every time she closes her eyes.
00;22;15;04 – 00;22;39;22
Rob Wilson
I couldn’t imagine seeing a loved one in your state. And we had issues. I’m sure you dealt with this. Suicides were big like Vegas. Like I want to I want to see the pictures. I’m like, No, you don’t. You don’t know what I because they were so adamant. A lot of times I’ll be like, I understand. And I certainly can’t stop you from looking at these, but give me four months.
00;22;40;10 – 00;22;57;02
Rob Wilson
Let all this go by and if you want in four months, come back and you’re still adamant about Want to see it, I’ll show you. But please take that time. And about 75% would be like, Thank you so much. It was just I don’t know why I wanted to see my son in that condition, but I think.
00;22;57;02 – 00;22;57;11
David Lyons
It said.
00;22;57;15 – 00;23;06;15
Wendy Lyons
I think it’s that accepting it that you to wrap your mind around it. And I think it’s just seeing, you know, it really happened. But did it really happen?
00;23;06;19 – 00;23;17;23
Rob Wilson
Yeah, just like I’d just like, please remember your loved one the last time you saw him. Not not this end of the 25, that percent that did want to see the pictures regretted it immediately.
00;23;18;10 – 00;23;33;25
David Lyons
It’s just awful. I just real quick, an anecdotal story. When I first started on patrol years ago, you know, we we found people. Yeah. But that’s part of policing is these are some I hadn’t answered the door we got the mail and you know so you hike in through a window and everything. But I’m not going to go into too much detail because it’s personal.
00;23;33;25 – 00;23;54;11
David Lyons
Some I mean, I remember one day discovering two decedents, one of them very young. And I just I’ll never forget the idea that before the other family member got up the hallway, I successfully got that door closed and got him outside and it was like there it did. That was a blessing because what was inside the room was awful.
00;23;54;11 – 00;24;05;23
David Lyons
Yeah. And in just fractions of a second making a difference. It was bad enough that you and me have to wear it, right? Yeah. And, but I remember thinking, Oh my God, how it can be worse.
00;24;05;24 – 00;24;13;24
Rob Wilson
Oh, yeah, it’s. Yeah, I’m glad you were able to spare those people. It just because you can’t ever get it out of your head once you see it, it’s there forever.
00;24;13;25 – 00;24;17;01
David Lyons
Exactly. Exactly. Well, fantastic. Fantastic.
00;24;17;06 – 00;24;20;16
Wendy Lyons
Thank you, Rob, for coming again. You always have the best stories to share with me.
00;24;20;16 – 00;24;22;12
Rob Wilson
Any time. I love hanging out and talking with you guys.
00;24;22;12 – 00;24;34;26
David Lyons
Especially with the cold case thing that that that had such a flavor. So we do have a lot more. We’re going to talk about for sure that we want to get on board with you and line up and we’ll definitely hit it up. So thanks again for coming.
00;24;34;27 – 00;24;38;16
Rob Wilson
Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you.
00;24;39;27 – 00;25;12;24
David Lyons
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at Murder Police podcast ABC.com, where you will find Shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.
00;25;13;09 – 00;25;36;28
David Lyons
We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.
00;25;37;09 – 00;29;48;13
David Lyons
And please tell your friends lockdown duty.
00;29;52;03 – 00;29;57;22
Wendy Lyons
Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast, The murder of Todd Shumaker. Part one.
00;29;57;28 – 00;29;58;06
David Lyons
Yeah.
00;29;59;04 – 00;31;34;00
Wendy Lyons
Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, the murder of Todd Shumaker Part two. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast. The murder of Todd Shumaker Part three. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast, the murder of Todd Shumaker. Part four.
00;31;40;03 – 00;31;42;28
Wendy Lyons
Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. I am Wendy.
00;31;42;29 – 00;31;43;21
David Lyons
And I’m David.
00;31;44;08 – 00;31;48;26
Wendy Lyons
Well, David, we have with us today retired detective Rob Wilson. How are you, Rob?
00;31;48;27 – 00;31;49;22
Rob Wilson
I’m doing very well.
00;31;49;27 – 00;31;52;10
Wendy Lyons
Thank you for coming back on our show.
00;31;52;11 – 00;31;53;15
Rob Wilson
Absolutely. Any time.
00;31;53;25 – 00;32;04;14
Wendy Lyons
You know, we’ve had Rob here with us before on the case of Alex Johnson and Meghan leaving. Good. And now we have Rob here with this on the 2015 murder of Todd Shumaker.
00;32;05;19 – 00;32;06;29
David Lyons
Is it Shumaker or maker?
00;32;07;13 – 00;32;08;12
Rob Wilson
I think it’s Schumacher.
00;32;08;13 – 00;32;49;09
David Lyons
Okay. Got you. We’re good. Yeah. I just want to make sure because it’s kind of tricky on the spelling a little bit.
00;32;51;29 – 00;32;53;26
Wendy Lyons
Rob, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?
00;32;54;13 – 00;33;14;10
Rob Wilson
Absolutely. Was on Alexa and Police department for 23 years, I believe. Spent two and a half to three years on patrol. Then moved into homicide, where I believe was close to 17, 18 years in active homicide and then finished the last two or three years of my career run in the Cold case unit.
00;33;14;23 – 00;33;16;28
Wendy Lyons
Nice. Are you enjoying your retirement days?
00;33;16;29 – 00;33;18;04
Rob Wilson
Very much so, yes.
00;33;18;07 – 00;33;19;24
Wendy Lyons
I’m sure they miss having you.
00;33;19;26 – 00;33;22;12
David Lyons
Do you miss doing cold casework? Yeah, I.
00;33;22;12 – 00;33;51;00
Rob Wilson
Found that really? Well, it’s really challenging because those cases are cold for a reason and typically those are the more difficult cases because they wouldn’t. They’re cold for a reason. And as you know, we’ve had some really good detectives in the unit and it’s fun on a couple of different levels. Just the challenge to try to find a suspect after so long, but also going back and reading case files that belonged to Paul Williams or David Lyons.
00;33;51;00 – 00;34;11;15
Rob Wilson
And just always impressed with those people, you know, that meticulous documentation that the really good ones do that actually learned a lot of stuff like reading through yours and Paul’s and Chris’s and James Karlis. So I’d always pick up little tidbits like, that’s an interesting question they asked. I never would have thought of that.
00;34;11;16 – 00;34;24;25
David Lyons
It’s funny when you look at older work, because I was the same way with John Busiek. I would read his and Dave Gibbons and things like that, and you pick that up too. And of course, the challenge with Paul Williams is it’s all in stone. Nelson. Yes. Having to carry around it.
00;34;25;00 – 00;34;27;25
Wendy Lyons
Forever isn’t too far behind. So he’s probably.
00;34;27;25 – 00;34;30;01
David Lyons
Chalk or some kind of a burnt wood, I think, as well.
00;34;30;17 – 00;34;36;27
Rob Wilson
We always joked that if Paul and Chris Goon over their search warrant, they were the first detective to do a search warrant in Panga.
00;34;37;08 – 00;34;52;21
David Lyons
There we go. Exactly it. Well, aside from that, too. Just do you have a rough idea of. Not that it’s a contest, but do you have a rough idea how many cases you either echo cases you laid down or felt like the ball moved significantly forward before you left any kind of it?
00;34;52;26 – 00;35;12;00
Rob Wilson
Yeah. I believe I put down three cold case murders before I left and one kidnaping and rape and I believe another assault first. So, yeah, I feel really good about the work that I did in that short time period. But that was one of the hard parts about leaving because I think there were a couple more that I could have done.
00;35;12;24 – 00;35;16;20
Rob Wilson
And it was Matt Brotherton who just got promoted to Commander.
00;35;16;21 – 00;35;19;27
David Lyons
Congratulations to Matt. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
00;35;20;18 – 00;35;40;03
Rob Wilson
And Matt and I went through the academy together and spent over a decade together as partners in Homicide. In this opportunity came up to retire or whatever. I struggled with it. And he told us, like, Rob, you’re not going to be able to solve them all. That’s why we have other detectives. You go, This is a good opportunity.
00;35;40;16 – 00;35;59;20
Rob Wilson
And it really did it just because, man, I could have stayed there for a long time, that challenge. You know, it’s fun to wake up in the morning and know that you’ve got a chance to. Right. Or wrong that’s been left undone for maybe a decade, two decades. So. Still got one in the works. And I’m working with the Commonwealth on that.
00;35;59;29 – 00;36;03;13
Rob Wilson
Maybe we do a direct indictment that’s been unsolved for over 20 years.
00;36;03;13 – 00;36;05;06
David Lyons
So incredible.
00;36;05;06 – 00;36;21;10
Wendy Lyons
Stuff. And I do have to say you, I think, began working the early stages of another episode that we covered, the ex-husband of my best friend who also was murdered this year, Angela Wooldridge. David Kelm I think you started with that.
00;36;21;11 – 00;36;27;25
Rob Wilson
Yes, I touched base with the family on that one. I spoke with him several times. Very nice family as you.
00;36;28;02 – 00;36;28;17
Wendy Lyons
That one.
00;36;28;17 – 00;36;30;14
Rob Wilson
Year? Yeah.
00;36;30;14 – 00;36;36;17
Wendy Lyons
Yes. So they they spoke so highly of you and they, they were hoping that they were going to keep you here.
00;36;36;17 – 00;36;57;26
Rob Wilson
It came down to those were one of the that was one of the cases that I had trouble with leaving because they were such a nice family and I think they had bad feelings towards a previous detective that handled the case. But he did a very good job of there was only so much to go on in one.
00;36;58;03 – 00;37;10;17
Rob Wilson
I have my own feelings about what happened in that case, but could never, ever prove anything. And again, that was one that was still on the on my desk when I left. So that those are the ones that it hurts to walk away from.
00;37;11;07 – 00;37;31;03
David Lyons
In their pain that those families are going through. You know, hopefully none of us ever, ever experienced that. So I got used to the idea and I thought it was part of the obligation to to be that board for them if they were frustrated and let them take some of that frustration out. I can’t imagine the pain of the so difficult thing, so good deal it.
00;37;31;08 – 00;37;58;01
David Lyons
Well, maybe we can come back on some of those that you laid down. Sure, you can get the files and do some shows on those, especially again, the art of pulling. Like you said, one or two decades. We’ve done some other things on the show of late where we interviewed Karen Binder with the DNA. No project. An amazing thing is my fact that’s our our charity of choice and the work that they do, just simply identifying unidentified human remains as beautiful work out there in and of itself.
00;37;58;01 – 00;38;06;13
David Lyons
So it. Well, what are we going to talk about today? Give us a give us just like a like a couple of sentences on what this case is going be about.
00;38;06;13 – 00;38;26;29
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it’s just going to be basically it’s a domestic violence murder. The victim, Todd Schumacher, and his boyfriend, Matthew Dunn High. They had lived together for approximately 5 to 6 months and things went really, really bad on the night of January 18, 2015.
00;38;27;19 – 00;38;32;10
David Lyons
Gotcha. Was there anything else that stood out about it or the violence?
00;38;33;10 – 00;38;58;06
Rob Wilson
Mr. Schumacher was stabbed over a hundred times. That’s by far the most stab injury ones that I’ve come across in over 20 years of investigating murders a hundred times. Think about how difficult that is or how long that takes for listeners out there. Just smack your hand against a table a hundred times. See how long that takes.
00;38;58;19 – 00;38;59;07
David Lyons
Exactly.
00;38;59;07 – 00;39;04;09
Rob Wilson
And just to have the energy and the anger to keep going that long.
00;39;04;12 – 00;39;11;14
David Lyons
I was skimming through some news articles, and I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t read them in depth either. I like kind of getting caught up code with you all. I’ve I’ve.
00;39;11;15 – 00;39;28;02
Wendy Lyons
Learned, you know, I ask you the other two nights ago, I said, Well, well, tell me about this. We were driving to dinner and he said, Nope, I want you to be surprised. And I hate the element of surprise because I love knowing a little bit of detail. So I’m glad. Well, I’m not glad in a way, because I still wanted the detail.
00;39;28;02 – 00;39;38;10
Wendy Lyons
But why don’t we just dig in, tell us. You know, I always love asking, what were you doing when this call came? Who who found out about this To make the call. How did you get involved?
00;39;38;16 – 00;40;04;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah, the. The patrol units were dispatched. Like I believe I said, the January 18, 2015, around 7:00 at night, they were called to the residence. The victim’s sister had gotten worried that she hadn’t spoken to her brother in a while. He wasn’t answering his phone, so she went over there. Nobody answered. She went in and saw the bloody mess that was all over the house, found her brother in the bedroom and Matthew?
00;40;04;29 – 00;40;31;14
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Matthew Dawn, I believe he was in the bedroom as well. She immediately called 911. The officers responded quite quickly and I believe Mr. Schumacher was pronounced dead at the scene. So at that point, obviously the homicide unit is called out. I was not on call, but I was next up for the primary and the homicide investigation. So it’s 730.
00;40;31;22 – 00;40;49;14
Rob Wilson
I remember exactly where I was. I was at BW Three’s the playoffs were going Green Bay was getting ready to play. I had just ordered my first beer and my phone starts buzzing. I looked down, See, it’s read bowls and it was a detective in the unit at the Times, like reading our friends. But he shouldn’t be calling me at 7:00 on a Sunday.
00;40;50;06 – 00;40;54;14
Rob Wilson
So I just kind of side and I know what this is because I was like, Hey, read.
00;40;54;14 – 00;40;55;14
Wendy Lyons
Across the table.
00;40;55;21 – 00;41;18;24
Rob Wilson
And he’s like, Sorry, buddy. And I was like, Yeah. He goes, We have one. It’s over. Lamont Which was odd because that’s probably just a half mile from where I lived at the time. So at first I was worried, like, we don’t know what kind of murder this is. Was it a shooting, you know, a drive by? Like, do I need to tell my kids to get in the basement or something like that?
00;41;19;12 – 00;41;45;24
Rob Wilson
But he told me that it was a stabbing. We didn’t know a whole lot right now. So they requested I respond to the scene. So I paid for my one beer that I didn’t drink and responded to the scene. And they had already taken Matthew to the hospital. At that point. He was, I guess, having trouble breathing or saying he had heart issue and he had minor wounds on his hand, so he was taken to the hospital.
00;41;46;04 – 00;42;06;20
Rob Wilson
I learned from officers at the scene that he had stated that he and Todd were at home alone when two people entered through the back door and started yelling at Todd and attacked one of them attacked him with a knife. Um, so I was given that brief synopsis but looked around at the scene and it didn’t add up.
00;42;06;20 – 00;42;31;22
Rob Wilson
There was no knocked over furniture where, you know, I’ve mentioned that Schumacher was a large guy, six to over £200. So there would have been tables turned over, chairs knocked over. But really all there was was a lot of blood and there was a pathway from the living room down the hallway to the bedroom where it was. You could see where as literally a body was dragged, a bloody body was dragged.
00;42;31;22 – 00;42;40;22
Rob Wilson
So we knew more than likely that the attack took place in the living room slash kitchen area. And Mr. Schumacher was taken drug to his his bedroom.
00;42;41;04 – 00;42;57;04
David Lyons
If we can go into the technical aspects a little bit too, we talked about the responding officers and starting there, if you’re in the homicide unit, what what is the expectation you have when you arrive? What what what’s the general things that you prefer patrol to be doing or have done by the time you get there?
00;42;58;16 – 00;43;27;04
Rob Wilson
If there’s any witnesses, they don’t need to do a thorough, detailed interview, but just get a basic story from whatever witnesses are around. Start a neighborhood canvass. If that’s the type of situation, you know, where that could be useful. Um, and for them to have already contacted Forensic Services Unit to respond to the scene, we want them there as fast as we can because they have to process it before we can really get in there and start our investigation.
00;43;27;22 – 00;43;29;14
David Lyons
Gotcha. And I guess the coroner comes.
00;43;29;14 – 00;43;30;12
Rob Wilson
Yes, absolutely.
00;43;30;12 – 00;43;33;05
David Lyons
What did the coroner come to this one? Because he was transported to the hospital?
00;43;33;11 – 00;43;37;10
Rob Wilson
Well, no, the suspect, Matthew Donahue, was transported to the hospital.
00;43;37;10 – 00;43;38;08
David Lyons
Thanks for starting it out.
00;43;38;08 – 00;43;48;20
Rob Wilson
Yeah, but, yeah, the coroner arrived and and and as you know, they they were on the scene until they decide to hand it over to us. They’re the primary investigators at any death scene in the in Fire County.
00;43;48;28 – 00;43;53;23
Wendy Lyons
Excellent. And then also, did you still have the sister there? Yes, her sister.
00;43;53;23 – 00;43;54;22
Rob Wilson
And some friends.
00;43;54;22 – 00;44;04;22
Wendy Lyons
Probably a very upsetting scene for for her, naturally. And so you had that to contend with as well as as Todd, it’s.
00;44;04;22 – 00;44;20;20
Rob Wilson
Always tough to deal with family members of victims, but it’s especially difficult when they’re on the scene and see their loved one in the state that they’re in. It takes it up several notches about the grief, the anger, the sadness and.
00;44;20;20 – 00;44;23;22
Wendy Lyons
The confusion was, why did this even happen?
00;44;23;27 – 00;44;40;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it’s one thing when we knock on a mother father’s door in the middle of the night and sit them down and calmly explain things to them. But when you see your loved one basically butchered like that, it’s it’s an image you’re never, ever going to get out of your head. And I really feel sorry for the family members that have to go through that.
00;44;41;04 – 00;44;50;13
Wendy Lyons
So did you kind of have a feeling at that moment that his partner was the suspect? Did your gut kind of tell you that that was the case here?
00;44;50;13 – 00;45;10;26
Rob Wilson
It was certainly a possibility. You know, you never want to let your theory get ahead of the evidence. Sure, you’re allowed to have a gut instinct, but don’t pay too much attention to it. We’ve all had gut instincts and been wrong. So, you know, you just you can’t help but develop a feeling. But never, ever let your theory get ahead of the evidence.
00;45;12;02 – 00;45;22;07
Wendy Lyons
So at that point, I guess you you dive into your investigation. Do you go ahead and interview the boyfriend at that point or where? Well, first.
00;45;22;21 – 00;45;44;19
Rob Wilson
We’re dealing we know it would be different if we didn’t know where the potential suspect would be. We knew he was at the hospital with Lexington police officer, so we knew he wasn’t going anywhere. So we coordinated with Forensic Services Unit to make sure that we got a lot of pictures, got a lot of things swabbed or photographed or fingerprints that we thought we might need.
00;45;45;05 – 00;46;08;01
Rob Wilson
And we did quite a bit of that in this case, only because Mr. Donahue, his version, was that two unknown subjects came in. So obviously, in that situation, DNA is very, very important. You know, if we can get a you know, a DNA hit off skin cells on a doorknob that don’t belong to the victim, the residents of the house, that’s very useful.
00;46;08;13 – 00;46;31;26
Rob Wilson
But as it turned out, when it turns into a domestic violence murder inside the residence, DNA is almost useless because you could expect to find victim suspects, blood, DNA, hair, skin cells anywhere and everywhere in that house. So but you always want to, you know, be take caution and collect all the evidence you need because you only get a crack at that crime scene once.
00;46;33;12 – 00;46;40;10
David Lyons
That that makes a good point, too, about keeping DNA in context, because a lot of people look at it as the magic bullet. And it is in some cases in some.
00;46;40;11 – 00;46;41;18
Rob Wilson
Cases it’s fantastic.
00;46;41;19 – 00;46;55;13
David Lyons
But but in cases like this, too, just just like back in that crime scene to that that it enforces the reason why you don’t want people traipsing through that because of the transfer theory. Yeah. Especially if they had that much blood. Yes. I’m going to imagine that you could almost walk through there with that.
00;46;55;13 – 00;47;08;15
Rob Wilson
Now, this is one of those where we were dressed up like CSI. We had the booties on and all that because there was just it was everywhere. You couldn’t help but come into contact with some blood on the floor, on a table or desk or chair.
00;47;10;09 – 00;47;13;00
Wendy Lyons
So at what point do you begin questioning Matthew?
00;47;13;25 – 00;47;21;17
Rob Wilson
He is released from the hospital and he was only there for a short time. So we had him transported to headquarters where I was able to speak with him.
00;47;23;01 – 00;47;26;17
Wendy Lyons
And so what was he stuck to? His story of the two intruders.
00;47;26;22 – 00;47;47;25
Rob Wilson
Initially, yes. In that first go around in an interview, if they’re willing to talk, you let them talk. You let them tell whatever they’re going to say. We call that a baseline statement. We’ll just let them speak, run on for 30 minutes if they want, because in the back of our minds, we already know what the physical evidence is telling us at the scene.
00;47;48;05 – 00;48;14;14
Rob Wilson
So we’re making mental notes and writing down notes as they’re talking that either supports their theory or contradicts their theory or reasoning of what happened. So right from the get go, he was just it was fairly easy to pick up that he was making this stuff up on the fly about two invaders. So we let him tell his story and then point out a couple of inconsistencies.
00;48;14;14 – 00;48;33;05
Rob Wilson
And at that point he asks for a lawyer. So on his you know, when when they say that it’s done so. But I always end the interview when they do that, it’s like, listen, we’re going to respect this. We’re going to terminate the interview. You’re going to be taken back to an holding cell. An officer will be behind probably 20 minutes, and we’re going to transport you to the jail.
00;48;33;21 – 00;48;53;02
Rob Wilson
And he like, so I’m being arrested. I was like, Absolutely. You answer on what I was like, Well, your story does not match the physical evidence at the scene. There’s no way two unknown intruders came into your home and did this. You already said that it was only you and Todd in the house in these fabricated. So that just leaves you.
00;48;53;18 – 00;49;11;24
Rob Wilson
And this is your time. If you want to talk to us, I want to hear your side of the story because maybe it will benefit you. But this story about two intruders is nonsense. You need to help yourself. I’m going to put you back in that holdover cell. And if you decide you want to talk to me, you can knock on the door and I’ll certainly listen.
00;49;12;18 – 00;49;24;27
Rob Wilson
So that’s what we did. We’ll put them in the hold over cell. And probably about 10 minutes later, there’s an officer back there. He knocked on the door and said, I want to talk to the Detective Wilson again. I want to tell him what really happened.
00;49;25;09 – 00;49;46;23
David Lyons
Let me go to the lay out a little bit just so people can picture this. When you’re talking about interviewing them and hold over ourselves and talk about the hold over ourselves, what they’re like and then the interview rooms and what they’re like and are they close to each other in things like they walk. Like if somebody had never been on the fourth floor as what we called it, what’s that look like and what’s the procedure for that?
00;49;46;26 – 00;50;07;24
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it’s a the Bureau of Investigations is on the fourth floor of Lexington Police Department’s headquarters, and you get off the elevators and you can make a right into an office. And that’s where the homicide unit is. You can make a left and you will go into general investigations where there’s cubicles that probably about 40 desks of detectives up there, probably about.
00;50;07;25 – 00;50;08;01
David Lyons
Right.
00;50;08;07 – 00;50;34;17
Rob Wilson
And then we have some administrative offices. And along the back wall, we have three interview rooms, which are there’s a table, a couple of chairs carpeted, fairly nice. But then you go further down the wall and we have three holding cells, which is basically like a jail cell. There’s a bench, nothing else in there. And it’s a large steel metal door that will lock.
00;50;35;09 – 00;50;48;04
Rob Wilson
We do have an eye hole for observation of the suspects, and basically they each stay there for a short period of time until an officer arrives to transport them to the Fair County Detention center.
00;50;48;04 – 00;50;54;21
David Lyons
Good. That way people can picture what this looks like when you’re just talking instead of sitting around at in a lobby or anything like that.
00;50;54;25 – 00;50;59;11
Wendy Lyons
So an officer hears him knocking saying he wants to speak to you.
00;50;59;15 – 00;51;23;16
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So we bring him back into the interview room, start the recording again, and the first thing I do in a situation like that is, did I promise you anything? Did I threaten you? Did I coerce you in any way to make a statement, make sure that they’re on tapes on. No, absolutely not. So you wanting to talk to me is completely you wanting to do this?
00;51;23;16 – 00;51;33;01
Rob Wilson
There was no contact. I made no contact and get them to agree to that, that they want to make a voluntary statement, because if you don’t do that, it’s going to get tossed in a suppression hearing.
00;51;33;01 – 00;51;35;23
Wendy Lyons
Especially as he had already said he wants to. Exactly.
00;51;36;15 – 00;51;47;15
Rob Wilson
So, yeah, you had to be really careful in making that perfectly clear on audio or video that they weren’t promised anything or coerced in any way. And it was a voluntary statement on their behalf.
00;51;48;15 – 00;51;50;08
Wendy Lyons
So how does he open it up with you?
00;51;50;23 – 00;52;23;20
Rob Wilson
He apologized for lying. He was scared. And then he went to what typically anybody will do in that situation, went to a self-defense strategy, basically bad mouth. Mr. Schumacher. He was violent, mean all the time, attacked him and he was scared. And that evening they got into an argument and Mr. Donahue went to the kitchen to grab a knife and held it behind his back in case Mr. Schumacher came back to confront him.
00;52;24;10 – 00;52;48;06
Rob Wilson
He stated Mr. Schumacher did came at him and he pulled the knife in self-defense, saying, Don’t come near me, don’t come near me. And he said, Mr. Schumacher took the knife from him and then they wrestled for about 5 minutes and Mr. Donahue got the knife back and stabbed him once, maybe twice. So we know that’s a lie because we know how many times he was stabbed.
00;52;48;06 – 00;53;09;24
Rob Wilson
But a Davis, you know, it’s like it’s sometimes you don’t get full on confession, just those admissions, right? Yeah. You’ve got to you’ve So now we’ve got him admitting on tape that I did stab Todd. Doesn’t matter if it was 100 times or one time. We’ve got him putting a knife into our victim. And from that story, also, we get rid of the two intruders.
00;53;09;24 – 00;53;28;16
Rob Wilson
So Mr. Donna High admits to us that I’m the only one in the house, and I stabbed him once. Who did? The other 99 stabbings, you know, So that was an important step, getting over that hurdle to admitting that he put a knife in his hand and then stabbed Mr. Schumacher.
00;53;28;22 – 00;53;32;00
David Lyons
Did he have any injuries through this five minute wrestling match?
00;53;32;00 – 00;53;44;22
Rob Wilson
Yeah, he did. They would be what we call defensive wounds. Um, but that’s what he stated. But what they were were slices along the hand knife.
00;53;45;05 – 00;53;45;16
Wendy Lyons
Yes.
00;53;45;16 – 00;54;07;07
Rob Wilson
As I’m sure a lot of people know, once you stab somebody a couple of times that blood gets on the handle, it makes it very slick. So when you repeatedly stab someone, your hand will slide down over the blade calling, causing these lacerations on your hand. A true defensive wound is if you’re putting your hands up and an attacker is coming with a knife, you’re going to have deep puncture wounds.
00;54;07;18 – 00;54;33;05
Rob Wilson
You know, we see them sometimes go through the hand. These were lacerations. So just do to experience and, you know, previous murder investigations with sharp instrument objects. They’ll typically if there’s multiple stab wounds, the the suspect will have on his hands from that hand sliding down across the blade. And there were also injuries to his wrists which look to be attempted suicide.
00;54;33;06 – 00;54;34;10
Rob Wilson
Oh, strikes.
00;54;34;10 – 00;54;35;11
David Lyons
How old were those?
00;54;36;13 – 00;54;38;13
Rob Wilson
I think he tried to do them that night.
00;54;38;13 – 00;54;38;29
David Lyons
Oh, wow.
00;54;39;00 – 00;54;58;24
Rob Wilson
Yeah, he was what we found out later was we believe that the the attack took place in the living room and Mr. Schumacher was drug into the bedroom and up on the bed. And Mr. Donahue, I played with him in the bed for several hours while he was dead.
00;54;59;26 – 00;55;13;15
David Lyons
Did he have blood on his clothing? Yes, That too. And another thing, too, comes back to his own estimation of 5 minutes. Of course, that’s an estimate. Sure. Of a wrestling match like that. You’re right. In one 5 minutes, just like a hundred stab wounds is a long time.
00;55;13;15 – 00;55;15;28
Rob Wilson
When you’re fighting someone, it’s an eternity.
00;55;15;28 – 00;55;27;29
David Lyons
Yeah, we know that. Yes. Experience. And then the idea that in 5 minutes, you’re right, that house, parts of that house were had been wrecked. Yes. There’s no way you do that like withdrawal circle and fight it. It’s going to be all over the house.
00;55;28;05 – 00;55;50;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah. In what we tended to believe, strangely enough, there was blood all over the floor and on the carpet and the walls. But it was like spatter and pooling. But just a little bit of pooling. We I remember when we flipped the cushions over on the couch, the couch was fine. There was no blood on the couch seats.
00;55;50;12 – 00;56;02;06
Rob Wilson
We flipped them over. There was a ton of blood, like a substantial amount of pooling on those cushions. I believe that he attacked him right there. And that’s where the majority of blood loss came.
00;56;02;06 – 00;56;04;05
Wendy Lyons
Flipped the cushions back. Yes. Yep.
00;56;04;08 – 00;56;04;18
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
00;56;05;01 – 00;56;11;01
Wendy Lyons
Did he ever or did you ever at any point tell him it’s not one or two stab wounds, it’s in fact 100.
00;56;11;01 – 00;56;17;29
Rob Wilson
I didn’t know at that time how many it was. It was only till after the autopsy that we learned. But you could tell it was.
00;56;18;13 – 00;56;19;19
Wendy Lyons
More than one or two.
00;56;19;19 – 00;56;23;04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, At least three dozen that I could see just visually.
00;56;23;10 – 00;56;39;13
David Lyons
And that comes back to that thing we’ve talked about before, where you go in that room sometimes with like that much and, and the struggle with that is, is is what can you do with that much. Yeah. The big thing like you said is that I don’t think I ever got told the real truth you probably have never.
00;56;39;13 – 00;56;39;22
Rob Wilson
Heard of.
00;56;39;27 – 00;56;56;22
David Lyons
But man, if you can make that window where they do something as simple as is, start the process and everything, but you’re really you don’t have everything like they have on TV, Right? Right. And CSI hasn’t done 28 minute DNA test yet and indefinitely. The autopsy is not going on down in the garage. We know that’s not happening.
00;56;56;22 – 00;57;00;05
Rob Wilson
So we’re not getting DNA hits in 5 minutes an Exactly.
00;57;00;06 – 00;57;03;04
David Lyons
Did they have a history? Well, first of all, any idea how long they’d been?
00;57;03;04 – 00;57;08;14
Rob Wilson
A couple about half a year, according to relatives and Mr. Donahue himself.
00;57;08;15 – 00;57;12;18
David Lyons
Any legal history of domestic violence? And you know what I was always curious about?
00;57;12;18 – 00;57;31;09
Rob Wilson
There was an interesting issue about this case. The couple shared a dog. It was primarily Mr. Schumacher’s named Munro, and there was an argument this was a couple of weeks before the murder, Mr. Donahue. I had gotten angry at Mr. Schumacher, taken his dog and put it in the oven and turned the oven on.
00;57;32;11 – 00;57;33;09
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow.
00;57;33;09 – 00;57;34;23
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Um.
00;57;35;05 – 00;57;36;07
Wendy Lyons
So he killed the dog.
00;57;36;13 – 00;57;49;03
Rob Wilson
Now they got the dog out in time. Um, then the animal control got involved and, oddly enough, worked with us on the homicide. I’d never work with animal control in a murder assignation.
00;57;49;03 – 00;57;49;15
David Lyons
Yes.
00;57;50;02 – 00;57;51;01
Rob Wilson
I know their stuff. Yeah.
00;57;51;01 – 00;57;56;10
Wendy Lyons
So did Matthew stab the dog in the same time as he was stabbing Todd was? Or was the dog.
00;57;56;23 – 00;57;58;09
Rob Wilson
We we never found Monro.
00;57;59;08 – 00;58;00;06
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow.
00;58;00;06 – 00;58;03;03
David Lyons
So do you remember who you work with? With animal control?
00;58;03;07 – 00;58;23;15
Rob Wilson
No. Um, she was fairly new. Um, and I was super impressed because we had a suppression hearing in this case, like we always do. I forget what evidence they tried to suppress, but she showed up at the suppression hearing, and I was like, Hey, what are you doing? Like, I know I just want to learn because I may have to go through one of these one time.
00;58;23;15 – 00;58;34;24
Rob Wilson
And it’s rare that people will take time out of their current job and assignment to go watch something else in hopes of learning something to maybe advance their career. So it was a very I was very impressed with her.
00;58;35;11 – 00;58;56;06
David Lyons
I’m trying to think of how to pronounce her first name, and I feel awful about this because she’s probably listening or J and yes, yeah, yeah. And I feel awful about that because I’ve actually been in communication with her on the case. Oh, really? And where my do is I think she’s agreed to do it is to come in and do an epilog on it on animal abuse and how that translates.
00;58;56;06 – 00;58;57;00
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
00;58;57;00 – 00;59;08;09
David Lyons
Because she is really sharp. The author a little bit when there were some conversations when I was on the command staff about warrants or something like that when we were trying to coordinate. And in your right, she’s she’s a detective.
00;59;08;09 – 00;59;30;29
Rob Wilson
Yeah she I remember she I think gave me a call on down the road after that, just asking for advice and very impressed with her because heck, at the time, we we try to get young detectives to come watch testimony, you know, like, I’m busy. I can’t make it. But for her to certainly not obligated in any way that was just her own self to learn things and become better at her job.
00;59;30;29 – 00;59;47;11
David Lyons
Yeah, hopefully we get her on here. Yeah, it would be a great epilog to this to kind of fold into that because there are relationships between people who do very evil things to animals and and what they might do to people. So and I think she’d be the ideal person from animal control to come and speak of that.
00;59;47;11 – 00;59;51;28
Wendy Lyons
So yeah so Monroe was never found, did you did you ever ask Matthew about Monroe?
00;59;52;00 – 01;00;17;08
Rob Wilson
Yeah, he, he made a comment about the dog. Must have gotten out at some point, but like I say, he, he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours. I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found written in blood. Please send to heaven Todd and Matt.
01;00;17;08 – 01;00;18;07
David Lyons
Oh, Lord. Where was that?
01;00;18;07 – 01;00;20;03
Rob Wilson
Written it on the bedroom wall.
01;00;21;20 – 01;00;22;09
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
01;00;22;16 – 01;00;53;27
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So, Mr. Donoghue has had some real issues. Um, as Dave and I were talking before the podcast started, that he had a juvenile record that was sealed that I couldn’t get into. And when they’re sealed like that at such a young age, typically it’s something really bad. And I wound up of course this made the news is most homicides in Lexington do.
01;00;53;27 – 01;01;11;02
Rob Wilson
I ran into a schoolteacher that asked if I was the one handling that case, and I said, yes, I was. I was like, well, how do you what’s your interest? She’s like, Well, I was a teacher of Matthew, don’t I? And she’s like, Yeah, I had to give statements about something that he did that I’m still not allowed to talk about.
01;01;11;19 – 01;01;22;07
Rob Wilson
And she said that as a young child or student, this is elementary school. She was scared of him. Wow. So he had some severe mental issues.
01;01;22;22 – 01;01;37;08
David Lyons
He’s he had mental issues. But to keep it straight a little bit, yeah. They he was evaluated because we’ll get to this in a minute. But I just want to make sure we’re clear on the idea that that was sorted out in court before he actually stood trial.
01;01;37;08 – 01;02;05;11
Rob Wilson
Obviously. Yeah. As Sister and Dave, we dealt with people with mental issues and you can be a full blown paranoid schizophrenic. Those are pretty easy to spot. But it’s the sociopaths, the borderline personality disorders that you start to pick up on if you dealt with them enough. And just an immature guess, I’d say he has borderline personality disorder, very manipulative, very intelligent.
01;02;06;04 – 01;02;29;02
Rob Wilson
He played the victim role very, very well. And luckily we had the evidence at the scene because, again, you do this for 50 years and get a read on somebody and be wrong. That’s why we need evidence to convict people. You know, I don’t ever want to go on my gut and I don’t like not believing individuals I’m interviewing because I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again.
01;02;29;10 – 01;02;44;09
Rob Wilson
But it’s so nice to have that evidence tucked away from the scene that, you know, that you can, you know, poke holes in their story with. But now he was very convincing. He played the victim well, very, very well. But I just knew he was lying.
01;02;45;16 – 01;02;54;04
Wendy Lyons
Wow. So you get your confession from him and I’d say admission. Yeah, admission. And then and well.
01;02;54;04 – 01;02;58;02
David Lyons
In the interim, too, after that, you talked about the autopsy. Did you attend the autopsy?
01;02;58;03 – 01;03;15;06
Rob Wilson
I did not. We were still doing stuff with the investigation. That’s typically the next day. So forensic service detectives go up and that’s when they told me the count was over 100. So I was I was floored at that. And he had all over his body from the top of his head to his feet.
01;03;15;14 – 01;03;26;11
David Lyons
Did they have any information in this goes back away. So if you don’t remember, that’s okay. Do they have any information about death or did knife help make contact? You know what I’m talking is it? Yeah, a lot of times no serrated sense.
01;03;26;13 – 01;03;39;23
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it was. We believe the murder weapon was just a regular kitchen steak knife, probably like five inches long. And several of the the stab wounds, especially to the abdomen, were very, very deep.
01;03;40;01 – 01;03;43;01
David Lyons
Was the murder weapon at the scene? It was. Okay, cool.
01;03;43;14 – 01;03;52;08
Wendy Lyons
And also, you know, I was wondering with that many, you know, how long did Todd endure this before he passed?
01;03;54;18 – 01;03;57;07
Rob Wilson
There’s no way of knowing because hopefully the first one was.
01;03;57;07 – 01;03;57;25
Wendy Lyons
You would have.
01;03;57;25 – 01;04;04;06
Rob Wilson
Got an artery and he bled out quickly because if not, you know, that’s that’s a horrible, horrible, torturous.
01;04;04;06 – 01;04;07;17
Wendy Lyons
Way to to it’s something to endure that’s awful.
01;04;07;17 – 01;04;25;26
Rob Wilson
Well, and again, I do believe just because of the size difference between the two, he attacked him while he was laying on the couch or sleeping. So that’s where he got in probably several devastating wounds. And then the rest was all just rage it.
01;04;25;27 – 01;04;33;18
David Lyons
Coming back to the interview, did he ever move off that last point of self-defense and a couple hits? Did he ever handle anything?
01;04;33;18 – 01;04;56;26
Rob Wilson
So it wound up when we were starting to confront him about the multiple stab wounds, like where did this happen and why Why was the back of his calf stabbed? Um, he again, like, I’m just so exhausted. I probably do need an attorney at this point. So he lawyered up for the second time. And at that point, yeah, he didn’t want to talk anymore.
01;04;56;26 – 01;05;04;13
Rob Wilson
So we respected his constitutional rights and shut the interview down, filled out the paperwork for murder, and sent him down to the Fair County Detention center.
01;05;04;15 – 01;05;08;14
David Lyons
Now, before you sent him to the. Did you all see his clothing or anything? Is that a practice?
01;05;08;14 – 01;05;31;22
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we did that. And during the interview you can hear he’s complaining because we have bags over his hands that are taped. So he can’t wash off any blood or anything like that. So we took precautions with that. Once he got to the hospital, his hands were were bagged by FSU and yeah, we certainly we had a jumpsuit for him, got him in a jumpsuit and took all his clothes for forensic examination.
01;05;32;07 – 01;05;32;21
David Lyons
Gotcha.
01;05;33;01 – 01;05;36;21
Wendy Lyons
Did he ever say why he dragged tired all the way back to the bedroom?
01;05;37;22 – 01;06;09;18
Rob Wilson
He loved him, just wanted to be with him. So is a moment where he just snapped for whatever and we’ll never know. But then reality sets in after the his five minute version of a struggle and he probably realized that I can’t lie my way out of this. So he went back there, laid with him, and probably did some thinking about how can I concoct a story around this in the best he could come up with, you know, to unknown intruders.
01;06;09;18 – 01;06;15;17
Rob Wilson
There is no way he could clean that house, get rid of the body and say, Now, Todd, he just left to go get Cigarets. And I never saw him again.
01;06;15;17 – 01;06;26;13
David Lyons
Yeah, because the couch cushion flip was kind of a modest attempt, as it is. Kind of. Yeah, right. It. Yeah, probably that, too. Is that the idea of laying with him for that long, too?
01;06;26;28 – 01;06;37;21
Wendy Lyons
Well, I’m just thinking the schematics of it with the size difference. How did he drag him that far and get him up in the bed. Yeah. That’s six, seven inches difference in height. Mm hmm.
01;06;37;25 – 01;06;57;27
Rob Wilson
Well, dragging him wouldn’t have been too hard, but getting him on the bed probably would have been a struggle because horrible to say. But dead weight is difficult to to move around. But it’s and that’s where I think he probably did a halfhearted attempt to take his own life, too. He saw there was he’s probably there’s no way he’s getting out of this.
01;06;58;19 – 01;07;04;13
Rob Wilson
But then I think he was surprised by the family showing up and had to go with that, that that story.
01;07;04;13 – 01;07;06;14
Wendy Lyons
That’s true that he concocted. Yeah. Yeah.
01;07;06;24 – 01;07;09;15
David Lyons
So he had handed that story to the family, I guess. Yeah.
01;07;09;15 – 01;07;11;29
Rob Wilson
To the family and then to the initial officers at the scene.
01;07;13;17 – 01;07;22;21
David Lyons
It So the autopsy gets completed, you get that new information. I wasn’t surprised because of the amount of damage there and whatnot. Neat that you recovered the knife at the scene.
01;07;23;00 – 01;07;30;10
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it’s Again, I just think I would imagine he was just overwhelmed with trying to figure out a way out of it.
01;07;30;10 – 01;07;40;25
Wendy Lyons
Well, I’m sure the knife was probably the least of his thinking. Where is he going to? Put it or hide it? I mean, unless he’s going to vacate the the residence to take it somewhere. I mean, there’s only so many places you can hide that night.
01;07;40;25 – 01;08;05;13
David Lyons
Yeah, it, it, yeah. They don’t think that through too good. I’ve only seen one time we had a murder of a Willard Street I think one time and they actually called a guy and he reminded me of a wolf in Pulp Fiction. He was a cleanup artist, and he. He had cleaned the apartment. It was a stabbing so well that the first run through FSU really didn’t detect anything until they got a statement, then went start pulling the toenail rolls out and stuff.
01;08;05;13 – 01;08;05;27
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
01;08;06;16 – 01;08;21;29
David Lyons
But I remember Craig Sorrell interviewed him and it was like a it was like talking to Wolfram Fox and he’s like, he goes, First thing I told him, Get all the silverware. And they’re like, Why do I have to draw all the silverware? He goes, Because there’s one piece missing. You get all the silverware and it’s funny, but not funny.
01;08;21;29 – 01;08;28;07
David Lyons
But that’s a real life thing too. So it anytime you do that, you have to be willing to take those extra steps, I guess.
01;08;28;10 – 01;08;48;15
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Now that’s I remember I think it was the Alex Johnson case where he was in the garage. That’s where they put him in the barrel to transport him down to the river. And we did some swabs to see if we could find any blood. And there was such a small amount on the railing of the garage door.
01;08;48;29 – 01;08;57;13
Rob Wilson
And I think Marcy Adkins at the lab, who you all on before, who’s fantastic, who’s amazing, she solved a lot of murders for me that I take credit for.
01;08;57;18 – 01;08;58;05
David Lyons
Sure. Yeah.
01;08;58;19 – 01;08;59;16
Rob Wilson
As all cops do.
01;08;59;16 – 01;08;59;23
David Lyons
Yeah.
01;08;59;24 – 01;09;01;28
Wendy Lyons
She’s like, love hearing that.
01;09;01;28 – 01;09;02;18
David Lyons
And she will.
01;09;02;21 – 01;09;03;07
Rob Wilson
Yes, she.
01;09;03;07 – 01;09;03;14
Wendy Lyons
Will.
01;09;03;14 – 01;09;18;13
Rob Wilson
Marcy, Marcy in the lab has been so good to me over the course of my career. So many people. Matthew Clements, who’s in ballistics, you know, I could call them at any time. And if it was legit enough reason, they jumped me to the it’s close to the front of the line as I could.
01;09;18;16 – 01;09;32;21
David Lyons
That’s a relationship that you give people and it makes it, Yeah, he’s going to be back and Bill Breslin will be back and we’re going to try to get him through when we’re done and cry or weep. And in. But Bill and Marcy have agreed to do one, and I’m not going to disclose what it’s about, but it’s a serial offender.
01;09;32;27 – 01;09;34;04
Rob Wilson
Yeah, a very scary guy.
01;09;34;04 – 01;09;45;13
David Lyons
We have a very spooky and she is brilliant. Yes. She has the ability to I think for our audience especially, she can take into layman’s terms so quickly and make people understand what Marcy was.
01;09;45;19 – 01;09;53;15
Rob Wilson
She’s one of those where she could have easily translate transferred from the lab. She could have been a homicide detective and a very good.
01;09;53;15 – 01;09;57;09
David Lyons
Absolutely. Yes. So her linear and analytical thinking is right? Yes.
01;09;57;09 – 01;09;58;25
Rob Wilson
She would have been fantastic at that job.
01;09;59;10 – 01;10;01;20
Wendy Lyons
She’s patting her back right now, and she should be.
01;10;01;24 – 01;10;03;09
Rob Wilson
Yeah, sure. Absolutely she should.
01;10;03;09 – 01;10;19;14
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. So we get we get to the autopsy, we recover the knife and everything, and and he’s done making no statements that. Correct. Yeah. And they get tricky. A lot of people don’t know. Maybe we’ll do an educational show on Fourth Amendment and then moves in your first reinforcement of Fifth Amendment, Sixth Amendment, all that kind of.
01;10;19;14 – 01;10;37;24
David Lyons
It’s it’s kind of convoluted as to how it gets more difficult to interview somebody longer. They’re in in their first couple of weeks. I guess what we’re talking about now is what what kind of things went on in the aftermath after he goes to jail? What walk us through what the investigation looks like in the things that you’re doing to tie this up.
01;10;37;24 – 01;11;02;11
Rob Wilson
Well, this one is actually really short and simple. Those domestics typically are you’re not having to run down alternative suspects or anything like that, like I mentioned before, we swab the heck out of the house. Turns out once he admitted that it was just he and Todd and he was the one that stabbed him, all that blood and swabbed kind of became useless because we know the blood belongs to the victim.
01;11;02;11 – 01;11;09;18
Rob Wilson
Todd. And if there’s fingerprints on things belonging to Matthew donor eye, then that doesn’t tell us anything. He lived there.
01;11;10;04 – 01;11;18;23
David Lyons
Useless until you get on the stand. Yeah, right. Yeah. And then when you get cross-examined as to why you didn’t do it. Yes. So it’s perfunctory to some degree. Yeah.
01;11;19;02 – 01;11;42;13
Rob Wilson
Do it. And you’re always. I had a murder case where we only collected 15 items and only sent off two or three items to be tested because it was a domestic as well. And I got grilled on the stand for cross-examination. I didn’t send enough off to the lab, already had my mind made up, stuff like that, and it doesn’t matter if I sent off 99 things to the lab, they’d say, Why didn’t you send off a hundred?
01;11;43;01 – 01;11;53;14
Rob Wilson
You know, it’s just a tactic that they use. And I understand they’ve got a job to do, but Absolutely. Yeah. As long as you can articulate why you sent something off or why you didn’t, you’re fine.
01;11;53;18 – 01;12;24;24
David Lyons
Right? It’s it’s funny to how we’re talking about a quick case because it’s it’s so isolated. And we were just listening to the the culpable podcast there. Right, Wendy? And season two, we’re talking about the murder of Brittney’s strikes in Ohio and really good investigators. You can tell it’s an unsolved case, but I think they’ll get there. But one of them was talking about the challenge on it, who done it when, what people think or tips or conjecture in theory once that lands because they’re talking in that case about thousands of tips.
01;12;24;24 – 01;12;36;14
David Lyons
Yeah, the guy that killed they allegedly killed, the four kids in Idaho. I think they when they when they talk about having thousands of tips, I don’t think some people understand that that’s a thousand things that’s.
01;12;36;14 – 01;12;37;17
Rob Wilson
A thousand interviews.
01;12;37;18 – 01;12;53;05
David Lyons
That’s it at least. Yeah. And every one of them has to have a beau around them. Yeah. And that that’s a big deal that I always try to get across to people is a tip is something that might move But geez or Pete don’t ever confuse that for a theory you have. Yeah I mean don’t don’t don’t paint that in a different way.
01;12;53;05 – 01;13;12;27
Rob Wilson
Well I’m sure you had some cases. I’ve had several where you get to a point in the investigation where you kind of hit the end of the road and it’s like, should we take this public, you know, put it on the news because you need their help, but you only want the viable tips because once it goes out there, you will you’ll get 100, 200 leads.
01;13;12;27 – 01;13;15;19
Rob Wilson
And you have to follow up on every single one.
01;13;15;19 – 01;13;16;26
David Lyons
Yeah. They’ve all got to be wrapped up.
01;13;16;26 – 01;13;29;15
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Because if you don’t that one, if you have 200 tips and you only do 199, by the time it gets to trial, those defense attorneys will be convinced that that one person you didn’t do was the real killer in we’ve wrongly arrested their client.
01;13;29;24 – 01;13;45;12
David Lyons
That’s even if it’s an unequivocal yes. I mean, it’d be neat for people to experience that, to be on the stand when that happens. But even if it’s an unequivocal I did it and the evidence is there, that’s their job. And, you know, we’ve got great ones in town. I’m sure I’ll write down our defense attorneys than once and I’ll continue.
01;13;45;13 – 01;13;51;18
David Lyons
Yeah, they’re amazing people, but it needs stuff. So in that case, yeah, wraps up pretty quick then.
01;13;51;27 – 01;14;01;16
Rob Wilson
So yeah, the investigation part is actually in this one’s probably done in 4 to 5 days and that’s all the paperwork and everything, sending stuff off to the lab.
01;14;03;03 – 01;14;10;24
David Lyons
So you get to kick your feet up on the desk because like, obviously there’s nothing else going on in town, right? Absolutely. That’s it. Like maybe two or three years, you’ll have it. I’m being facetious.
01;14;10;24 – 01;14;11;20
Wendy Lyons
Of course you are.
01;14;11;20 – 01;14;12;08
David Lyons
Exactly.
01;14;12;10 – 01;14;38;05
Rob Wilson
That is a then, you know, there’s the gallows humor up in homicide. You have to have it. But it’s a good feeling when like you’re next up and you finally get one, it’s like, okay, this isn’t a whodunit. I can solve it, wrap it up pretty quickly. And then I go to the back of the line, you know, that’s maybe you get lucky and your numbers not called again for three months, four months.
01;14;38;18 – 01;14;46;20
Rob Wilson
So, you know, you’re not bust in your butt on this unsolved murder because those are the worst when you get an unsolved and you’re still killing yourself and then you get another one.
01;14;47;00 – 01;15;00;07
David Lyons
Which is the nature. Yes, that’s it. That’s where all that loose ends, I think by land speed record for one was a derby day where a guy got beat to get death with a two by four, a third straight. And I think I was able to be back home in about 4 hours.
01;15;00;11 – 01;15;01;02
Rob Wilson
Yeah, those are nice.
01;15;01;02 – 01;15;14;05
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. Had some some stuff to do afterwards. But I had somebody in custody, I had statements, I had the physical evidence recovered and we got to it. But yeah, that never happened again. And you’re right, that’s their raking leaves on a windy day yet always coming in.
01;15;14;05 – 01;15;20;18
Rob Wilson
It’s a really good analogy because it it just doesn’t stop. You just hope for a breather from time to time in it.
01;15;20;19 – 01;15;36;01
David Lyons
And I think if somebody gets into the business, I think it’s a mistake they might make it. Don’t ever think you’re going to be done and kind of take it just it’s the nature of the beast. But when you do leave to this day and I’ve been gone a long time, I still will be out doing something and I’ll think about one of them that didn’t lay down.
01;15;36;02 – 01;15;39;19
David Lyons
You just always like, if I could get back and do this, they’d never leave you.
01;15;39;25 – 01;16;06;22
Rob Wilson
I’m pretty lucky in that. I think I’ve only have two unsolved in my career. And I put them. I worked them to exhaustion. Yeah. Like it’s just so I’m at peace with that. But I still get I’ve been gone over a little over a year now, and there’s still some PTSD. Like when I hear a certain phone, a ring type that that was my ring when I was in Homicide at 3 a.m., I’d hear the ring.
01;16;07;03 – 01;16;12;16
Rob Wilson
And if I hear that exact ring, it’s just like it takes me back. And I’m not happy about it exactly.
01;16;12;27 – 01;16;31;24
David Lyons
But I will say this I kind of miss it enough to where, like when we’re talking about David Callum’s family or we’ve met the Hastie family, which is south, a beautiful that have a an adult son. We covered Michael Gourley that went missing and hasn’t been seen. And there’s foul play all over that. There’s also a part that makes you sure work.
01;16;32;06 – 01;16;32;22
Rob Wilson
You never.
01;16;33;02 – 01;16;33;18
David Lyons
Know gets.
01;16;33;18 – 01;16;34;01
Rob Wilson
Away.
01;16;34;01 – 01;16;50;04
David Lyons
And that that’s an inside thing that you’re just thinking wired or like if I’m listening to a good podcast myself again, I’m going to pitch because it’s really good. The entire time. I’m thinking, Boy, I would probably think about this. Yeah, it would be an avenue. So it’s it’s fun to think about, but you don’t have to go in and do it.
01;16;50;04 – 01;16;51;16
David Lyons
And you’re not, but you’re I getting paid for it.
01;16;51;18 – 01;17;13;11
Rob Wilson
I think Travis Holt, who’s a really good detective, I think he’s running cold case now. Right. Very sharp guy. And I’m sure he’ll do great at it. But I’ve seen other departments have former homicide detectives come on as consultants. And if Florence Weathers is out there listening, you know, I’d be certainly happy to come back and review some cases because it is fun being part of it.
01;17;13;20 – 01;17;19;06
Rob Wilson
I just wouldn’t be the main one responsible. I’d just give some ideas and maybe some guidance and see where it goes.
01;17;19;06 – 01;17;37;13
David Lyons
Yeah, I won’t name any names, but I did get hit up by somebody several months ago and got to love him to death and he’s not there anymore. But he had an idea of having a an event where a lot of us going back as far back as we could get together, spent an entire day and just talk about what’s on that shelf.
01;17;37;15 – 01;17;43;16
David Lyons
Yeah. And I was like, brilliant. Well, that won’t happen. No, Right. It’s like but it was a neat, neat concept.
01;17;43;18 – 01;18;07;23
Rob Wilson
Well, when they asked me to take over the Cold Case unit, I had the idea that because I think at the time we had 50 maybe unsolved murders going back to the seventies or eighties, what I wanted to do was take six weeks, not do a damn thing, but read every case file and put them in categories. It’s like, okay, these are potentially DNA cases, right?
01;18;07;23 – 01;18;37;27
Rob Wilson
Okay, we’ll set these aside and when I get to them, I’ll go through all the evidence and send a ton of stuff off to the lab. These are pounding the pavement cases like need to reinterview some people, maybe some new ones that they missed. They go over here and then there’s some that no fault of any detective. Sometimes the bad guy, they get the breaks and there’s just hardly any solve ability to those and set those aside so you can work on the ones that actually have a chance of getting solve.
01;18;37;27 – 01;18;57;19
Rob Wilson
And first thing you do is you send all those off to the lab and hopefully you get a phone call or two and six months and say, okay, now this, this belongs to so-and-so, you know, and there’s the low hanging fruit, as they say. Sure. You know, it’s like, give me those any day of the week. I don’t need to beat my chest and say how great of an investigator I am saying, Now you give me a DNA hit and I’ll go put the cuffs on.
01;18;58;05 – 01;19;07;20
David Lyons
That and look at what it does for the family. Absolutely. At that end, it it yeah. Whether it’s low hanging fruit or hanging fruit, I think that the name of the game is a game is to see how many doubles you can get.
01;19;07;20 – 01;19;37;09
Rob Wilson
Yeah. We just I just finished up a couple pled guilty to a cold case murder that happened in 2010. Um, but, yeah, that’s when I made contact with the victim’s daughter. I knocked on her door and told her who I was, and she was like, Don’t get me involved unless you believe you can solve this. Because I’d already come to a certain amount of peace with it, right?
01;19;37;11 – 01;19;56;16
Rob Wilson
I don’t want to live through it again if nothing’s going to happen. And that’s tough because I had it, it was like, I can’t promise anything at all. I can promise you this. I’m going to give it my all and I’ll keep you in the loop every step of the way. And I was I was fairly confident. I knew who did it.
01;19;56;16 – 01;20;05;16
Rob Wilson
You know, we had some avenues to go to get some some information, and luckily we were able to make it happen. But yeah, she was she was scared that I was opening up the case again, actually.
01;20;05;16 – 01;20;10;18
David Lyons
But everybody metabolisms metabolizes that a different way. And I could see that I could see where that.
01;20;10;18 – 01;20;13;11
Rob Wilson
Yeah, she’s like, don’t make me go through it again if nothing’s going to happen.
01;20;13;12 – 01;20;13;21
David Lyons
Right.
01;20;14;01 – 01;20;25;19
Rob Wilson
So that was a real relief off my shoulders when we finally got the the arrest of the two individuals. And yeah, she was very grateful and, and also frustrated that it took 13 years, you know, Absolutely crazy.
01;20;25;23 – 01;20;38;29
David Lyons
Well, let’s go back to this one shirt. It didn’t take 13 it thank God for the family on that is where do we go now if a pretty, pretty quick investigation get some things some lab work, You got your autopsy reports and everything. What happens next?
01;20;39;07 – 01;21;02;12
Rob Wilson
Well, we just everybody out there, it’s not familiar with the court system. I place a charge of murder Within a week we go to district court and have what’s called a felony preliminary hearing, where I will give up, give testimony probably 4 to 5 minutes. The defendant’s attorney gets to ask me some questions. And then at that point, the judge in district court decides that there’s probable cause for an arrest.
01;21;02;27 – 01;21;22;21
Rob Wilson
And at that point, it’s sent up to the circuit court level and goes to grand jury. Now, grand jury has to be done within 60 days of the arrest. So soon as we get the probable hearing over with, I make contact with the Commonwealth Attorney’s office, find out who my prosecutor is. We’ll go over the case and then set a date for the grand jury.
01;21;22;21 – 01;21;44;28
Rob Wilson
And the grand jury is just a it’s 12 individuals and the prosecutor is in there. And then they call the witness, which will be me in this case. And I basically just tell a story. There’s no defense attorney there to cross-examine me. It’s just to present the information to the grand jury. And their job is to decide if there is enough evidence there for a trial jury to hear the case.
01;21;44;28 – 01;22;06;15
Rob Wilson
And it takes 9 to 12 of those jurors to get it passed over to trial. So once that 60 days is over and you get the indictment, it could be anywhere from a year to three years to four years before this case hits a trial. And I believe this one was fairly quick. So we went to trial probably within 18 months.
01;22;06;29 – 01;22;07;07
David Lyons
Of the.
01;22;07;07 – 01;22;07;20
Rob Wilson
Murder.
01;22;07;20 – 01;22;08;27
David Lyons
Yes. So yeah.
01;22;09;19 – 01;22;11;06
Rob Wilson
So and then then we had a trial.
01;22;11;19 – 01;22;14;14
David Lyons
Yeah. And tell us about that experience.
01;22;14;14 – 01;22;48;22
Rob Wilson
Well, like I said, Don, I had gone with the self-defense claim. And again, just the for me, the inconsistencies in the scene, he said that he fought with this £220 man who honestly outweighed him by £85. And if you’ve ever fought anybody, you know what the difference of 85 is and that he only had a couple of nicks on his hands and he wrestled and got the knife back, he’s going to have some of I’m not saying he can’t do it, but he’s going to have some severe injuries in obtaining that knife back from that six foot two, £220 man.
01;22;49;10 – 01;23;12;16
Rob Wilson
Um, but this is one of those. And Dave and I have talks like I have a great respect for the criminal justice system and the jurors that have to sit through they got this one wrong. They believed his story that he was the victim, that the true victim was mean and abusive and attacked him and he was only acting in self-defense.
01;23;12;16 – 01;23;34;12
Rob Wilson
And, you know, the argument like, okay, you’re acting in self-defense, maybe five stab wounds and then run out the back door, you know, stabbing him over 100 times, dragging him into bed writing in blood, Send us to heaven. You know, just they just bought his act and, you know, so this is the only time one or two times I’d say just the jury got it wrong.
01;23;34;21 – 01;23;36;23
Rob Wilson
They saw he was convicted of manslaughter.
01;23;36;29 – 01;23;45;28
David Lyons
That happens. I always said that there’s two times of the year that you don’t want to go to a jury trial and that’s a couple of weeks for Thanksgiving and a couple of weeks for Christmas. Am I right or wrong?
01;23;45;29 – 01;23;46;25
Rob Wilson
You’re absolutely.
01;23;46;25 – 01;24;08;12
David Lyons
Right. You’re right. And a super compassion. I remember I had an assault first where a young man had been beat severely, His head pounded on the concrete and he his neurological deficit was incredible. He couldn’t even testify. He he lived in a different state. And I doubt I’ll never forget that they came back with a misdemeanor version of the world and in to listen to everything.
01;24;08;12 – 01;24;13;06
David Lyons
In the end, it was like you to have the mental agility of a small soap dish to go there.
01;24;13;06 – 01;24;27;26
Rob Wilson
Yeah. I mean, so yeah, that example, they knew that he was guilty of attacking this man or assaulting him, but it wasn’t severe enough to make it a felony. You know, if he did it, he did it. And then the injuries are what they are that almost takes it out of your hands.
01;24;27;28 – 01;24;28;15
David Lyons
He was if you.
01;24;28;15 – 01;24;31;03
Rob Wilson
Believed he did it, then he’s guilty of a felony assault.
01;24;31;03 – 01;24;49;21
David Lyons
He had this kid had lost vision in one eye and everything. It was horrible. So, yeah, I respect the system, too. Absolutely. But I’ll tell you, I told you before and I’ll just give a recommendation if anybody wants a good book on this. It’s called Guilty in the Collapse of Criminal Justice by Judge Harold Roth. Whacks. Go get the book and read it.
01;24;49;21 – 01;25;20;06
David Lyons
And he told you before, too, that he was a defense attorney? I think in New York. He was a chapter president for the president for the ACLU for years. And he got on the bench and had a 180 degree turn because he got to he got splashed with all that reality. And for example, he doesn’t believe in unanimous jury verdicts, criminal trials anymore because he’s in a holdout juror in judge, We’re all SWAC said this and he cites Kentucky cases where he says they the holdout juror never decides on the case facts in the case.
01;25;20;17 – 01;25;29;09
David Lyons
He cites a Kentucky case where when they polled the jury, the one woman that wouldn’t go with it on a robber said he just looked too handsome to be a robbery suspect.
01;25;29;24 – 01;25;31;25
Rob Wilson
And they’re amazing.
01;25;32;02 – 01;25;54;19
David Lyons
They’re so guilty. The collapse of criminal justice. He’s deceased. I wish I got to I think where the I spoke to him one time. Oh, yeah, but pretty impressive guy. But a we have a fantastic system. And I know right now people are talking about reforming the criminal justice system and in different ways. But boy, there’s a lot of victims are left without justice, too.
01;25;54;25 – 01;25;59;12
Rob Wilson
Yeah, and I know it’s set up to it’s best to let ten guilty men go for his.
01;25;59;12 – 01;25;59;22
David Lyons
First.
01;25;59;22 – 01;26;03;01
Rob Wilson
One. And I do believe that I could change that.
01;26;03;01 – 01;26;03;21
David Lyons
I’d go with that.
01;26;03;21 – 01;26;25;10
Rob Wilson
Yeah, but it’s especially in today’s climate, getting 12 people to agree on any topic. All right. Is darn near impossible. Yeah. You know, and then you throw in situations where, again, you’re appealing to people’s compassion and stuff like that. They don’t want to be responsible for sending someone away for 40 years.
01;26;25;12 – 01;26;29;11
David Lyons
It’s tough, especially in a death penalty case. Yeah. To meet a juror after that and what they thought.
01;26;29;11 – 01;26;55;28
Wendy Lyons
But I think what’s frustrating about that is that it is hard to send them away. However, I just wish they put their feet in the victim’s family shoes. That’s what that does to the victim’s family, who knows? It’s just a misdemeanor. No, it’s just a manslaughter when it’s clearly was a murder. And in that case, overkill for for Todd.
01;26;55;28 – 01;27;19;18
Wendy Lyons
And it’s frustrating. And I always say, you know, when they when they say and of course, it’s, you know, people’s opinion on death penalty or how they choose the jury to go or their decisions. But I just think if people would think if that were their family or their loved one, would you be okay with that small of a sentence?
01;27;19;24 – 01;27;35;21
David Lyons
Well, and it comes back to to the same people that we have an immense amount of respect for the defense attorney. Sure. And that is what they get paid the big bucks for. Sometimes. No bucks at all. Yeah. And the ones we agree that we go out and have a drink with in a minute. And I love them to death.
01;27;35;21 – 01;27;37;12
David Lyons
That’s how the system works. Yeah.
01;27;37;12 – 01;27;46;16
Rob Wilson
And it’s when I was young and naive, I was like, how the defense attorneys convince 12 people that this person’s innocent. And you really don’t need to do that.
01;27;46;17 – 01;27;47;04
David Lyons
No, you don’t.
01;27;47;04 – 01;28;04;04
Rob Wilson
You just have to get one person to believe you. And it’s a hung jury. And then there’s going to be a plea or, you know, you try it again and hope a better jury pool. But yeah, now they just have to convince one person on there there’s reasonable doubt. And I think that reasonable doubt gets abused a lot.
01;28;04;04 – 01;28;07;19
David Lyons
Well, it’s it’s like everything else that it’s a. Yes.
01;28;07;28 – 01;28;10;19
Rob Wilson
Reasonable doubt isn’t. Anything’s possible.
01;28;10;21 – 01;28;11;04
David Lyons
That’s it.
01;28;11;04 – 01;28;13;04
Rob Wilson
You know, aliens could have come down to. Can you disprove.
01;28;13;04 – 01;28;13;13
David Lyons
That?
01;28;13;23 – 01;28;19;25
Rob Wilson
That’s true. So if people take that beyond a reasonable doubt way to literally, I believe.
01;28;20;00 – 01;28;21;18
David Lyons
Do you remember what the jury came back with on.
01;28;22;09 – 01;28;23;23
Rob Wilson
I think the ten years on Main.
01;28;23;23 – 01;28;25;27
David Lyons
One, which that’s nothing in Kentucky.
01;28;25;28 – 01;28;30;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah, I believe he’s out or he’s not he’s in a in a hospital somewhere.
01;28;30;06 – 01;28;33;26
David Lyons
Yeah great. Yeah. They just don’t stay in very long Now.
01;28;33;26 – 01;28;38;27
Wendy Lyons
Did you have contact with Todd’s family or his sister who found him after that?
01;28;39;02 – 01;29;03;19
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we stayed in contact with him. But we have a great program with at the police department now. But also it started with the Commonwealth Attorney’s office because the victims advocate and they are responsible with keeping the victim’s family in the loop about court dates. Um, so we’re kind of freed up to do investigative work, but we certainly make sure that the victims families are taken care of and informed.
01;29;03;19 – 01;29;08;23
Rob Wilson
We update them with progress on the case and such. So yeah, they’re we stay in touch with them.
01;29;11;03 – 01;29;16;07
David Lyons
In the aftermath. Thinking back on on this case, is there anything that you would have done differently or.
01;29;17;06 – 01;29;23;12
Rob Wilson
I don’t think we could have. It was a pretty straightforward I a simple case of murder.
01;29;23;12 – 01;29;24;26
David Lyons
And you remember who you worked with on it.
01;29;25;17 – 01;29;26;10
Rob Wilson
B.J. Carter.
01;29;26;16 – 01;29;27;11
David Lyons
Okay. Good news.
01;29;27;11 – 01;29;46;25
Rob Wilson
Yep, absolutely. Rebels was out there. The patrol officers did a really good job. I believe Officer Taylor was out there. They did really good preliminary interviews and did excellent right up to where I could refresh my memory, going back on the case file about what he told them as opposed to what he told me. So, yeah, just yeah, good work all around.
01;29;46;25 – 01;29;50;01
Rob Wilson
And it’s it’s not odd for the Lexington Police Department to do good.
01;29;50;01 – 01;30;01;27
David Lyons
I know people would think we’re in a war and everything, but I’ve never in the entire time, I never had a bad experience. I had never like I hear her. I travel a lot. I hear horror stories, and I’m like, What? You know? Yeah, it’s got great people.
01;30;02;02 – 01;30;32;07
Rob Wilson
I had a commander will say, Commander Matt Brotherton again, we’re talking just the other day about our travels where our cases led us Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Tampa, Washington, Baltimore, New York. When we’re starting out, it’s like we’re pretty good agency. But when you get to visit these other agencies, you realize how good Lexington has it. I know we are one of the best police departments in the country, and I say that with complete confidence.
01;30;32;07 – 01;30;41;04
David Lyons
Yeah, I remember back in the day I went in, I won’t say where. I mean, Schoon went to another agency and we had the start of the murder book, and I looked over and said, What’s that? Yeah, okay.
01;30;41;10 – 01;30;46;00
Rob Wilson
Some of it’s like terrifying site, but you run a murder investigation.
01;30;46;00 – 01;31;08;12
David Lyons
But, you know, in their defense it’s because there’s and we can just hit this little little spot with it is that it so much and law enforcement is is learning at the coattails of somebody and yes so I give a wide breadth. I’m not being critical of it. But yet the reality of it is, is that if there’s one thing in law enforcement that just universally needs is training, training, training, training.
01;31;08;12 – 01;31;31;18
David Lyons
And it’s incredible, especially when people talk about impacting budgets and police departments, which is kind of the thing last few years. It’s like, okay, I mean, the first thing that goes when the money gets tight in a police department is training. Yeah, it’s it’s a la carte. It’s you get the minimum you need and everything. But when the budget gets tight, the very thing we need to probably be better and more confident is the first thing you go, Yeah.
01;31;31;18 – 01;31;39;05
Rob Wilson
And then after that overtime gets tossed and you try to work in a murder on hours a week, it just doesn’t get done.
01;31;39;12 – 01;31;46;03
David Lyons
Oh, he’s just a if anybody. Another book was a David Salman homicide. He was just.
01;31;46;04 – 01;31;48;03
Rob Wilson
Homicidal. You’re on the killing streets.
01;31;48;10 – 01;31;48;16
David Lyons
Like.
01;31;48;16 – 01;31;49;00
Rob Wilson
Grateful.
01;31;49;00 – 01;32;07;09
David Lyons
Good. Yeah. The ten rules of homicide. And one of them is that a an open murder case is a monetary. Monetary. But I remember back in the day in a unit that a major or I think Fran wrote in come in one day and say, okay, guys and girls, we’ve got to cut the overtime back. And it’s like you’re just whistled for the Grim Reaper.
01;32;07;09 – 01;32;19;25
David Lyons
Yeah, it was like as soon as I’d say that and I’m. I’m making light of it. It was, yeah. If you want to bring tragedy into your community, just talk about that. Because it was like it rained night that night. So. Yeah, but this stuff cost money.
01;32;19;28 – 01;32;38;01
Rob Wilson
Yeah, but you’re right about the just riding on the coattails of the ones that came before you. I mean, think about how far back that goes. Use mentioned Fran root. Mm. There’s Fran root, then there’s Danny Gibbons, then there’s you guys and James Curtis and Paul Williams, Chris going over there and I come along. So that’s you getting close to 40 years of just good quality.
01;32;38;08 – 01;33;00;24
David Lyons
And one thing we’re working on a little bit is I want to go back even further to Barney Kimmelman. Oh yeah. And keep going back that the people that Barney and and their names are zipping right out of my head. And I love dropping names on here because they’re fantastic people. But Barney and them really go back another generation and the holy cow, they can talk about that murder or that family guy.
01;33;00;24 – 01;33;05;26
David Lyons
Yeah, that preacher’s family. That’s a long time ago. Yeah, well, dangle one for now.
01;33;05;26 – 01;33;08;04
Rob Wilson
Oh, is that the one out Russell Cave Growing cell?
01;33;08;04 – 01;33;08;12
David Lyons
Yeah.
01;33;09;05 – 01;33;10;24
Rob Wilson
That’s probably one of the worst ones I’ve heard of.
01;33;10;25 – 01;33;19;04
David Lyons
Yeah. Oh, just brutal. Awful. But we’re going to leave it alone because somebody in this business that we respect a lot, I think has taken a peek at that. And we’ll leave it at that.
01;33;19;06 – 01;33;21;16
Rob Wilson
Good. Yeah, I’ll be I’ll be listening in on it.
01;33;21;16 – 01;33;23;17
David Lyons
Yeah. And I’ll tell you, I just don’t want a hat tip.
01;33;23;22 – 01;33;24;13
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
01;33;24;13 – 01;33;41;29
David Lyons
And put pressure. But they will knock it out of the park when they do it. Great. And they know who I’m talking about. Probably. So they do. I’ll tell you after we’re done here. So he goes probably out. We didn’t look probably out. I mean, the reality of it is, is that it doesn’t take long. It doesn’t take long, especially in those things.
01;33;42;20 – 01;34;00;27
David Lyons
What if if somebody was going to be interested in getting into the murder cop business, what’s a few things that you would suggest them? Let’s say, like they’re a patrol officer and they’re out earning their bones in Lexington. As a matter of fact, you can’t go to a specialized assignment by contract until three years, which makes all the sense in the.
01;34;00;27 – 01;34;02;23
Rob Wilson
World, actually. Absolutely does.
01;34;02;23 – 01;34;04;14
David Lyons
What would what would tell somebody?
01;34;05;11 – 01;34;29;19
Rob Wilson
Well, first off, those people that are in college thinking about entering into a career in law enforcement, you don’t necessarily need to major in criminology or police administration. The election police department will teach you what they think you need to know. We’ve told people to get a degree in English. Learn how to articulate your thoughts in paper and testimony.
01;34;29;20 – 01;34;29;28
Rob Wilson
Here we.
01;34;29;28 – 01;34;30;05
David Lyons
Go.
01;34;30;23 – 01;34;59;16
Rob Wilson
But once you’re on the department, which again when I decided I wanted to be a police officer, I want to be a homicide detective right off the get go. And I was really bummed that I knew I was going to have to do three years of patrol looking back, I wouldn’t trade those three years for anything. I learned so much, but four new patrol officers out there that are wanting to get into homicide investigation, go up there and introduce yourself, tell them that this is what you want to do.
01;34;59;28 – 01;35;11;08
Rob Wilson
Ask if they could hang out. And it’s like I starts Friday. Do you mind if I come up? Shadow You guys, we just never had that happen. No, I mean, I did.
01;35;12;11 – 01;35;15;21
David Lyons
It was very rare. It really was. It was very rare.
01;35;15;24 – 01;35;26;28
Rob Wilson
But I mean, if I’m a veteran detective in some 26 year old kid on patrols, spending time on his day off to watch me and ask me questions, he’s already got the battle have won.
01;35;27;03 – 01;35;27;19
David Lyons
There we go.
01;35;27;26 – 01;35;48;15
Rob Wilson
You know, just that initiative and that drive and making it known that that’s what you want to do. And then make sure I don’t care if it’s a stolen lawnmower report that you’re taking. Make it a good one, because we read all these reports and we may not recognize if it’s great or really good, but we will recognize if it’s crappy.
01;35;49;12 – 01;36;08;10
David Lyons
We are told that day one, Right. And I even was told that on really crappy reports that they would hang them up and investigations. And I remember thinking, nobody does that. And then I got up there. Yeah, it was like it was like a mural. Yeah. And it’s like the wall of shame kind of. Yeah. So that that’s a driver.
01;36;09;11 – 01;36;31;05
David Lyons
Before we close to one more thing, too, because you did coach cases and this is a sad passion of mine. I’m pretty interested in. What would you tell a citizen detective, a lay detective, an Internet sleuth? Because I personally believe there’s space for them in this whole game. It’s just frustrating as the fan in that because the time and I’ve seen some beautiful work done.
01;36;31;21 – 01;36;41;05
David Lyons
What would you tell somebody who was was doing late investigations like that on the side? What advice would you have them for improving a relationship with a detective work in a case.
01;36;41;21 – 01;36;45;27
Rob Wilson
That’s touchy because, as you know, a lot of detectives are very territorial.
01;36;45;28 – 01;36;46;13
David Lyons
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
01;36;46;14 – 01;37;02;20
Rob Wilson
I don’t want anybody looking over my shoulder second guessing what I’ve done. But you have to make contact with that primary detective if you’re like, Well, call them grass roots detectives and citizen detectives make contact and just like, Hey, I’m really interested in this. I found some stuff I’m going to if you’d like, I’ll forward it to you.
01;37;02;23 – 01;37;34;18
Rob Wilson
And if I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. And there’s starting to be specialty fields like genealogy. Sure. I mean that’s I worked with one or two of those, and that’s a lot of work that they put in that I don’t know how to do, nor do I have the time. So if they’re in that type of field, please reach out to your local police department, your homicide unit, and let them know that you’re you know, your skills are available and more than likely free of charge because the department’s not going to offer up, you know, pay money to basically private investigators.
01;37;35;02 – 01;37;45;01
Rob Wilson
The department has its own investigators and expects them to do the job. But there’s a certain skill set that citizens in certain fields can have that I don’t possess.
01;37;45;05 – 01;37;45;25
David Lyons
In time.
01;37;45;25 – 01;37;46;11
Rob Wilson
And time.
01;37;46;14 – 01;37;51;27
David Lyons
I think the biggest thing is time. It’s a made up that their imagination and time can do wonderful thing.
01;37;51;27 – 01;38;12;21
Rob Wilson
And I say make contact with the primary investigator. One thing out of courtesy but to spend some time talking to him so he doesn’t think you’re a nut job because there are those out there that give other citizen investigators a bad name and you have to weed through those. If my phone rings, I’m going to pick it up and listen to somebody.
01;38;12;21 – 01;38;33;21
Rob Wilson
I always will because I’ll take any information anybody wants to give me if it turns to be not useful, then I wasted a little bit of time. But you got to turn over every stone and just, you know, present yourself in a professional manner and let them know that you’re there to. Assist because, I mean, good detectives will take whatever help that you can provide.
01;38;34;10 – 01;38;36;11
David Lyons
100%. When do you got anything?
01;38;36;11 – 01;38;57;23
Wendy Lyons
Because we just I was just going to say it’s no different than someone who has a tip on a cold case or an active, active case. You know, we always say it may be that one little piece of information. And we said that on David comes someone knows something and it may only be something so minor, but yeah, that one little piece may break it wide open.
01;38;57;25 – 01;39;13;03
David Lyons
Yeah. You know, sometimes it’s a phone call after the event that you can’t connect and it can be so simple. Hold this bag. Do me a favor and go to my house and get this. Or can I borrow your car? How many times have we seen that with a borrowed car? And. Yes, can I park my car here?
01;39;13;03 – 01;39;22;18
David Lyons
We went with that. With the one with Billy. And Paul is a gay. Cannot store this car here. Well, it’s go for a salvage tile. Little things like that just just can make a big difference.
01;39;22;18 – 01;39;30;10
Rob Wilson
Yeah. And people out there don’t know. It’s like I heard this, but it’s probably nothing. Please take the time and call because you do not know.
01;39;30;19 – 01;39;32;04
David Lyons
Assuming somebody else has done it.
01;39;32;04 – 01;39;50;02
Rob Wilson
That’s a big thing in cold cases. Yeah. And it’s no fault of women. I’ve done it myself. I like. I’ll read through some like. Huh. Why wasn’t this person interviewed in I’ll go back and interview the persons like now some came to me about nine years ago and talked to me, but they didn’t document it because it wound up being nothing.
01;39;50;17 – 01;39;55;01
Rob Wilson
But you still have to document because it’s a box that needs to be checked.
01;39;55;01 – 01;40;00;21
Wendy Lyons
I always say in my line of work, it’s not written down. It didn’t happen through with anything.
01;40;00;23 – 01;40;01;11
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
01;40;01;11 – 01;40;03;21
Wendy Lyons
You know, is so important to to document those.
01;40;03;21 – 01;40;12;06
David Lyons
Yeah. Get on the stand with one of these really good defense attorneys in town, the ones that have got a couple that are interested in coming and doing the show really Which would be neat.
01;40;12;07 – 01;40;18;22
Rob Wilson
That’d be a that’d be a fun one. Do a roundtable. Yeah. With a prosecutor, a defense attorney, a detective, you know? Yeah.
01;40;18;23 – 01;40;20;13
David Lyons
We’ll just get a ring. Yeah.
01;40;20;17 – 01;40;22;10
Wendy Lyons
Let them all go at it, because they will.
01;40;22;10 – 01;40;36;29
David Lyons
They can hit the bar outside, and we can load everything up, and it’ll be. And thank God we’ll have video of it. Yeah. But the reality of it is, is that I’d like to get them to come on and talk about just like you talked about your job is to defend somebody. And let’s for argument’s purposes, you know they did it.
01;40;37;05 – 01;40;45;18
David Lyons
Yeah and because a lot of people are like, how can you how can you do that? Well, somebody has to. Yeah, right. I mean, it’s how this it separates us from the rest of the world.
01;40;45;18 – 01;41;00;23
Rob Wilson
And a lot of people don’t get that. They think the defense attorney’s job is to get a guilty person off, you know, their job to make sure that their client receives a fair trial. And here it’s it all. And you have to have that. I’m in complete support of that.
01;41;00;24 – 01;41;01;00
David Lyons
Yeah.
01;41;01;02 – 01;41;05;14
Rob Wilson
So that’s not their job is to get guilty People off. They just have to defend their client.
01;41;05;20 – 01;41;18;00
David Lyons
That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s what it’s all about. Well, good to you. Thought that was fantastic. I think we got too many prayers to Todd’s family absent, especially with the extra anguish of dealing with with the discovery and everything.
01;41;18;00 – 01;41;31;27
Wendy Lyons
Just as well in the sister walking in on that horrible had the misfortune of walking walking in and jeez and that as I said on that podcast I did on her. And that’s something that I’m sure his sister sees every time she closes her eyes.
01;41;31;27 – 01;41;56;16
Rob Wilson
I couldn’t imagine a loved one in your state. And we had issues. I’m sure you dealt with this. Suicides were big like they are like, I want to I want to see the pictures. I’m like, No, you don’t. You don’t want to. Because they were so adamant. A lot of times I’ll be like, I understand. And certainly can’t stop you from looking at these, but give me four months.
01;41;57;04 – 01;42;13;27
Rob Wilson
Let all this go by and if you want in four months, come back and you’re still adamant about Want to see it? I’ll show you. But please take that time. And about 75% would be like, Thank you so much. It was just I don’t know why. Wanted to see my son in that condition, but I think.
01;42;13;27 – 01;42;14;01
David Lyons
It’s.
01;42;14;11 – 01;42;23;08
Wendy Lyons
I think it’s that accepting it that you got to wrap your mind around it. And I think it’s just seeing, you know, it really. But did it really happen?
01;42;23;12 – 01;42;34;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah, It’s just like I’d just like, please remember your loved one the last time you saw them. Not not this end of the 25 that percent that did want to see the pictures regretted it immediately.
01;42;35;02 – 01;42;50;19
David Lyons
It’s just awful. And just real quick and anecdotal story. When I first started on patrol years ago, you know, we we found dead people. Yeah, but that’s part of policing is these are some I hadn’t answered the door got the mail and you know so you hike in through a window and everything but I’m I’m not going to go into too much detail because it’s personal.
01;42;50;19 – 01;43;11;11
David Lyons
So my but I remember one day discovering two decedents, one of them very young. And I just I’ll never forget the idea that before the other family member up the hallway as successfully got that door closed and got him outside and it was like there it did. That was a blessing because what was inside that was awful. Yeah.
01;43;11;12 – 01;43;22;16
David Lyons
And in just fractions of a second making a difference. It was bad enough that you and me have to wear it, right? Yeah. And, but I remember thinking. Oh, my God. How it can be worse.
01;43;22;16 – 01;43;26;00
Rob Wilson
Oh, yeah, it’s. Yeah. I’m glad you were able to spare those.
01;43;26;00 – 01;43;26;29
David Lyons
People it just.
01;43;27;02 – 01;43;30;17
Rob Wilson
Because you can’t ever get it out of your head once you see it there forever.
01;43;30;17 – 01;43;33;24
David Lyons
Exactly. Exactly. Well, fantastic. Fantastic.
01;43;33;28 – 01;43;37;09
Wendy Lyons
Thank you, Rob, for coming again. You always have the best stories to share with me.
01;43;37;10 – 01;43;39;05
Rob Wilson
Any time. I love hanging out, talking with you.
01;43;39;05 – 01;43;51;19
David Lyons
Especially with the cold case thing that that that had such a flavor to it. So we do have a lot more. We’re going to talk about for sure that we want to get on board with you and line up and we’ll definitely hit it up. So thanks again for coming.
01;43;51;20 – 01;43;52;18
Rob Wilson
Thanks for having me, guys.
01;43;52;28 – 01;43;53;10
David Lyons
Thank you.
01;43;54;15 – 01;44;28;13
Rob Wilson
Like I say, he he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours. I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found written in blood. Please send to heaven. Todd and Matt, like I say, he he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours.
01;44;28;24 – 01;44;38;11
Rob Wilson
I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found in blood. Please send to heaven. Todd and Matt.
01;44;40;12 – 01;44;55;04
Wendy Lyons
Morning. The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions, violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Todd Shumaker Part two.
01;44;58;23 – 01;45;17;07
David Lyons
And, well, first of all, any idea how long they’d been? A couple?
01;45;18;01 – 01;45;22;06
Rob Wilson
About half a year, according to relatives and Mr. Donohoe himself.
01;45;22;08 – 01;45;26;19
David Lyons
In a legal history of. Domestic violence. Now, I was always curious about there was.
01;45;26;19 – 01;45;45;00
Rob Wilson
An interesting issue about this case. The couple shared a dog. It was primarily Mr. Schumacher’s name, Munro. And there was an argument this was a couple of weeks before the murder. Mr. Donohoe had gotten angry at Mr. Schumacher taking his dog and put it in the oven and turned the oven on.
01;45;46;03 – 01;45;47;00
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow.
01;45;47;01 – 01;45;47;11
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
01;45;48;27 – 01;45;49;29
Wendy Lyons
So he killed the dog.
01;45;50;04 – 01;45;52;24
Rob Wilson
Now they got the dog out in time.
01;45;54;26 – 01;46;04;20
Rob Wilson
Then the animal control got involved and oddly enough, worked with us on the homicide. I’d never work with animal control in estimation. They know their stuff.
01;46;04;26 – 01;46;10;28
Wendy Lyons
So did Matthew stab the dog in the same time as he was stabbing Todd was? Or was the dog We.
01;46;10;28 – 01;46;13;02
Rob Wilson
We never found Munro.
01;46;13;02 – 01;46;13;23
Wendy Lyons
Oh, wow.
01;46;13;28 – 01;46;16;24
David Lyons
So you remember who you work with with animal control?
01;46;16;29 – 01;46;37;07
Rob Wilson
No, she was fairly new and was super impressed because we had a suppression hearing in this case, like we always do. I forget what evidence they tried to suppress, but she showed up at the suppression hearing, and I was. Hey, what are you doing? It’s like, I know. I just want to learn because I may have to go through one of these one time.
01;46;37;07 – 01;46;48;17
Rob Wilson
And it’s rare that people will take time out of their current job and assignment to go watch something else in hopes of learning something to maybe advance their career. So it was a very I was very impressed with her.
01;46;49;03 – 01;47;10;00
David Lyons
I’m trying to think of how to pronounce her first name and feel awful about this because she’s probably listening GI or J and yes, yeah, yeah. And I feel awful about that because I’ve actually been in communication with her on the case. Oh, really? And where am I do is I think she’s agreed to do it is to come in and do an epilog on it on, on animal abuse and how that translates.
01;47;10;00 – 01;47;10;25
Rob Wilson
Absolutely.
01;47;10;25 – 01;47;22;01
David Lyons
Because she is really sharp I gather a little bit when there were some conversations when I was on the command staff about warrant service and things like that, and we were trying to coordinate. And you know, in Iraq, she’s she’s a detective.
01;47;22;01 – 01;47;44;21
Rob Wilson
Yeah, she I remember she, I think, gave me a call on down the road after that, just asking for advice and very impressed with her because, heck, at the time, we we try to get young detectives to come watch testimony, you know, like, I’m busy. I can’t make it for her and certainly not obligated in any way. It was just her own self-motivation to learn things and become better at her job.
01;47;44;22 – 01;47;46;07
David Lyons
Yeah, hopefully we get her on here.
01;47;46;17 – 01;47;47;01
Wendy Lyons
Yeah, that.
01;47;47;14 – 01;48;01;05
David Lyons
Would be a great epilog to this to kind of fold into that because there are relationships between people who do very evil things to animals and and what they might do to people. So and I think she’d be the ideal person from animal control to come and speak of that.
01;48;01;05 – 01;48;05;22
Wendy Lyons
So yeah. So Monroe was never found, did you did you ever ask Matthew about Monroe?
01;48;05;24 – 01;48;30;17
Rob Wilson
Yeah. He, he made a comment about the dog. Must have gotten out at some point. But like I say, he, he was there alone with after the victim was deceased for several hours. I mean, we’re talking a long time. Just laid him in bed with him. And we also found written in blood. Please send to heaven Todd and Matt.
01;48;31;03 – 01;48;32;02
David Lyons
Oh, Lord. Where was that?
01;48;32;02 – 01;48;33;26
Rob Wilson
Written it on the bedroom wall.
01;48;35;13 – 01;48;36;04
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
01;48;36;09 – 01;49;07;23
Rob Wilson
Yeah. So Mr. Donoghue has had some real issues. Um, as Dave and I were talking before the, the podcast started, that he had a juvenile record that was sealed that I couldn’t get into. Um, and when they’re sealed like that at such a young age, typically it’s something really bad. And I wound up, of course, this made the news as most homicides in Lexington do.
01;49;07;23 – 01;49;24;25
Rob Wilson
I ran into a schoolteacher that asked if I was the one handling that case. And I said, yes, I was. I was like, Well, how do you what’s your interest? She’s like, Well, I was a teacher of Matthew Dunn High, and she’s like, Yeah, I had to give statements about something that he did that I’m still not allowed to talk about.
01;49;25;13 – 01;49;32;03
Rob Wilson
And she said that a young child or student, this is elementary school, she was scared of him.
01;49;32;25 – 01;49;33;09
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
01;49;33;09 – 01;49;36;17
Rob Wilson
So he had some severe mental issues.
01;49;36;17 – 01;49;51;03
David Lyons
He’s he had mental issues. But to keep it straight a little bit, yeah. They he was evaluated because we’ll get to this in a minute. But I just want to make sure we’re clear on the idea that that was sorted out in court before he actually stood trial.
01;49;51;03 – 01;50;22;14
Rob Wilson
Obviously. Yeah. As Sister and Dave, we dealt with people with mental issues and you can be a full blown, paranoid schizophrenic. Those are pretty easy to spot. But it’s the sociopaths, the borderline personality disorders that you start to pick up on if you dealt with them enough and I’m just an immature guess I’d say yes borderline personality disorder very manipulative very intelligent and he played the victim role very, very well.
01;50;23;21 – 01;50;42;25
Rob Wilson
And luckily we had the evidence at the scene because again, like you can do this for 50 years and get a read on somebody and be wrong. That’s why we need evidence to convict people. You know, I don’t ever want to go on my gut and I don’t like not believing individuals I’m interviewing because I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again.
01;50;43;03 – 01;50;59;07
Rob Wilson
But it’s so nice to have that evidence tucked away from the scene that, you know, that you can, you know, poke holes in their story with. But now he was very convincing. He played the victim world very, very well. But I just knew he was lying.
01;50;59;07 – 01;51;07;27
Wendy Lyons
Wow. So you get your confession from him and I’d say admission. Yeah, admission. And then and well.
01;51;07;27 – 01;51;11;27
David Lyons
In the interim, too, after that, you talk about the autopsy. Did you attend the autopsy?
01;51;11;28 – 01;51;28;28
Rob Wilson
I did not. We were still doing stuff with the investigation. That’s typically the next day. So service detectives go up and that’s when they told me the count was over 100. So I was floored at that. And he had them all over his body from the top of his head to his feet.
01;51;29;07 – 01;51;39;22
David Lyons
Did they have any information in this goes back? A So if you don’t remember, that’s okay. Do they have any information about death or did the knife help make contact? You know what I’m talking about. Is it. Yeah. No. Serrated.
01;51;40;05 – 01;51;53;16
Rob Wilson
Yeah, it was. We believe the murder weapon was just a regular kitchen steak knife. Probably like five inches long. And several of the the stab wounds, especially to the abdomen, were very, very deep.
01;51;53;22 – 01;51;56;24
David Lyons
Was the murder weapon at the scene? It was okay, cool.
01;51;57;06 – 01;52;07;18
Wendy Lyons
And also, you know, I was wondering with that many, you know, how long did Todd endure this before he passed you?
01;52;08;13 – 01;52;11;08
Rob Wilson
There’s no way of knowing because hopefully the first one was you.
01;52;11;08 – 01;52;11;18
Wendy Lyons
Would have.
01;52;11;19 – 01;52;17;10
Rob Wilson
Got an artery and he bled out quickly, because if not, that’s that’s a horrible, horrible.
01;52;17;10 – 01;52;21;08
Wendy Lyons
Torturous way to to it’s something to endure that’s awful.
01;52;21;08 – 01;52;39;18
Rob Wilson
Well, and again, I do believe just because of the size difference between the two, he attacked him while he was laying on the couch or sleeping. So that’s where he got in, probably several devastating wounds. And then the rest was all just rage it.
01;52;39;20 – 01;52;47;18
David Lyons
Coming back to the interview, did he ever move off that last point of self-defense and a couple hits? Did he ever handle anything? No.
01;52;48;25 – 01;53;10;20
Rob Wilson
It wound up when we were starting to confront him about the multiple stab wounds, like where did this happen and why why was the back of his calf stabbed? Um, he again, like, I’m just so exhausted. I probably do need an attorney at this point. So he lawyered up for the second time. And at that point, yeah, he didn’t want to talk anymore.
01;53;10;20 – 01;53;18;05
Rob Wilson
So we respected his constitutional rights and shut the interview down, filled out the paperwork for murder, and sent him down to the Fair County Detention center.
01;53;18;08 – 01;53;22;05
David Lyons
Yeah. Before you sent him, did you all, like scissors, clothing or anything? Is that a practice?
01;53;22;07 – 01;53;45;13
Rob Wilson
Yeah, we did that. And during the interview, you can hear he’s complaining because we have bags over his hands that are taped, so he can’t wash off any blood or anything like that. So we took precautions with that. Once he got to the hospital, his hands were were bagged by FSU and. Yeah, we certainly we had a jumpsuit for him, got him in a jumpsuit and took all his clothes for forensic examination.
01;53;45;29 – 01;53;46;12
David Lyons
Gotcha.
01;53;46;22 – 01;53;50;13
Wendy Lyons
Did he ever say why he dragged tired all the way back to the bedroom?
01;53;50;28 – 01;54;23;10
Rob Wilson
Uh, he loved him. Just wanted to be with him. So is a moment where he just snapped for whatever reason, and we’ll never know. But then reality sets in after that. His five minute version of a struggle, and he probably realized that I can’t lie my way out of this. So he went back there, lied with him, and probably did some thinking about how can I concoct a story around this in the best he could come up with, you know, to unknown intruders.
01;54;23;10 – 01;54;29;12
Rob Wilson
There is no way he could clean that house, get rid of the body and say, Nah, Todd, he just left to go get. And I never saw him again.
01;54;29;12 – 01;54;40;12
David Lyons
Yeah, because the couch cushion flip was kind of a modest attempt, as it is. Kind of. Yeah, right. It’d be probably that, too. Is that the idea of lying with him for that long term?
01;54;40;21 – 01;54;51;12
Wendy Lyons
Well, I’m just thinking the schematics of it with the size difference. How did he drag him that far and get him up in the bed? Yeah, that’s six seven inches difference in height. Mm hmm.
01;54;51;17 – 01;55;11;21
Rob Wilson
Well, dragging him wouldn’t have been too hard, but getting him on the bed probably would have been a struggle because. Horrible to say, but dead weight is difficult to to move around. But, yeah, it’s in. That’s where I think he probably did a halfhearted attempt. Take his own life, too. He saw there was he’s probably there’s no way he’s getting out of this.
01;55;12;14 – 01;55;18;06
Rob Wilson
But then I think he was surprised by the family showing up and had to go with that that story, that.
01;55;18;06 – 01;55;19;28
Wendy Lyons
Story that he concocted. Yeah.
01;55;19;28 – 01;55;20;07
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
01;55;20;17 – 01;55;22;29
David Lyons
So he had to hand that story to the family, I guess.
01;55;22;29 – 01;55;27;10
Rob Wilson
Yeah, to the family and then to the initial officers at the scene.
01;55;27;10 – 01;55;36;22
David Lyons
It so the autopsy gets completed, you get that new information. I wasn’t surprised because of the amount of damage there and whatnot. Neat that you recovered the knife in the scene.
01;55;36;22 – 01;55;44;01
Rob Wilson
Yeah. It’s again it’s just think I would imagine he was just overwhelmed with trying to figure out a way out of it.
01;55;44;01 – 01;55;54;17
Wendy Lyons
Well, and I’m sure the knife was probably the least of his thinking. Where is he going to put it or hide it? I mean, unless he’s going to vacate the the residence to take it somewhere. I mean, there’s only so many places you can hide that night.
01;55;54;17 – 01;56;19;05
David Lyons
Yeah. It, it, yeah. They don’t think that through good financing. One time we had a murder of a Willard Street, I think one time, and then they actually called a guy, and he reminded me of a wolf in Pulp Fiction. He was a cleanup artist. And. And he he had cleaned the apartment. It was a stabbing so well that the first run through FSU really didn’t detect anything until they got a statement and then went start pulling the toenail where it was out and stuff.
01;56;19;06 – 01;56;19;19
Rob Wilson
Yeah.
01;56;20;08 – 01;56;35;22
David Lyons
But I remember Craig Sorrell interviewed him and it was like a it was like talking to Wolfram Fox and he’s like, he goes, First thing I told him, Get all the silverware. And they’re like, Why do I have to throw all the silverware? And he goes, Because there’s one piece missing. You get all the silverware. And it’s funny, but not funny.
01;56;35;22 – 01;56;42;01
David Lyons
But that’s a real life thing too. So it anytime you do that, you have to be willing to take those extra steps, I guess.
01;56;42;01 – 01;57;02;09
Rob Wilson
Yeah. Now that’s I remember I think it was the Alex Johnson case where he was in the garage. That’s where they put him in the barrel to transport him down to the river. And we did some swabs to see if we could find any blood. And there was such a small amount on the railing of the garage door.
01;57;02;23 – 01;57;11;07
Rob Wilson
And I think Marcy Adkins at the lab, who you all had on before, who’s fantastic, Susan, she solved a lot of murders for me that I take credit for.
01;57;11;12 – 01;57;12;00
David Lyons
Sure. Yeah.
01;57;12;13 – 01;57;13;25
Rob Wilson
As all cops do. Yeah. Yes.
01;57;13;26 – 01;57;14;29
Wendy Lyons
Like, love hearing that.
01;57;15;13 – 01;57;16;09
David Lyons
And she will.
01;57;16;12 – 01;57;16;29
Rob Wilson
Yes, she.
01;57;16;29 – 01;57;17;21
Wendy Lyons
Will. Mercy.
01;57;17;22 – 01;57;32;06
Rob Wilson
Marcy in the lab has been so good to me over the course of my career. So many people. Matthew Clements, who’s in Ballistics, you know, I could call them at any time. And if it was legit enough reason, they jumped me to the it’s close to the front of the line as I could.
01;57;32;08 – 01;57;46;13
David Lyons
That’s a relationship that you give people and it makes her. Yes, she’s going to be back and Bill Breslin will be back and we’re in. Try to get him through one word and cry or weep. And and but Bill and Marcy have agreed to do one. And I’m not going to disclose what it’s about, but it’s a serial offender.
01;57;46;19 – 01;57;47;26
Rob Wilson
Yeah, Very scary guy.
01;57;48;02 – 01;57;58;10
David Lyons
Very spooky. And she is brilliant. Yes. She has the ability to I think for our audience especially, she can take that into layman’s terms so quickly and make people understand.
01;57;58;11 – 01;58;07;28
Rob Wilson
What Marcy was. She’s one of those where she could have easily translate transferred from the lab and she could have been a homicide detective and a very good absolutely.
01;58;08;00 – 01;58;10;12
David Lyons
Yes. Her her linear and analytical thinking.
01;58;10;12 – 01;58;13;03
Rob Wilson
Is right on. Yes, she would have been fantastic at that job.
01;58;13;03 – 01;58;15;13
Wendy Lyons
She’s patting her own back right now, and she should be.
01;58;15;18 – 01;58;17;03
Rob Wilson
Yeah, sure. Absolutely she should.
01;58;17;03 – 01;58;33;22
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. So we get we get to the autopsy, we recover the knife and everything and and he’s done make no statements after that, correct? Yeah. And that gets tricky. A lot of people don’t know. Maybe we’ll do an educational show on Fourth Amendment and then it moves. And, you know, first man, Fourth Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Sixth Amendment, all like, kind of it’s good.
01;58;33;23 – 01;58;51;19
David Lyons
It’s kind of convoluted as to how it gets more difficult to interview somebody longer. They’re in in their first couple of weeks. I guess what we’re talking about now is what what kind of things went on in the aftermath after he goes to jail? What walk us through what the investigation looks like in the things that you’re doing to tie this up.
01;58;51;19 – 01;59;16;05
Rob Wilson
Well, this one is actually really short and simple. Those domestics typically are you’re not having to run down alternative suspects or anything like that. Like I mentioned before, we swab the heck out of the house. Turns out once he admitted that it was just he and Todd and he was the one that stabbed him all that blood and swabbed of became useless because we know the blood belongs to the victim.
01;59;16;05 – 01;59;23;12
Rob Wilson
Todd. And if there’s fingerprints on things belonging to Matthew Donor, I. Then that doesn’t tell us anything. He lived there.
01;59;23;28 – 01;59;32;14
David Lyons
Useless until you get on the stand. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. And then when you get cross-examined as to why you didn’t do it. Yes. So it’s perfunctory to some degree. Yes.
01;59;32;25 – 01;59;50;18
Rob Wilson
Do it. And you’re always I had a murder case where we only collected 15 items and I only sent off two or three items to be tested. It was a domestic as well. And I got grilled on the stand for cross-examination. I didn’t send enough off to the lab. I already had my mind made up, stuff like that.
01;59;51;02 – 02;00;07;07
Rob Wilson
And it doesn’t matter if I sent off 99 things to the lab, they’d say, Why didn’t you send off a hundred? You know, it’s just a tactic that they use. And I understand they’ve got a job to do, but absolutely. Yeah. As long as you can articulate why you sent something off or why you didn’t, you’re fine.
02;00;07;12 – 02;00;26;14
David Lyons
Right? It’s it’s funny to have we’re talking about a quick case because it’s it’s so isolated. And we were just listening to the the Culpable podcast the other night, Wendy, and season two where they’re talking about the murder Brittney Sykes in Ohio and really good investigators. You can tell it’s an unsolved case, but I think they’ll get there.
02;00;26;14 – 02;00;50;07
David Lyons
But one of them was talking about the challenge on a whodunit when what people think or tips or conjecture in theory once that lands because they’re talking in that case about thousands of tips. Yeah. The guy that killed it allegedly killed the four kids in Idaho. I think they when they when they talk about having thousands of tips, I don’t think some people understand that that’s a thousand things.
02;00;50;07 – 02;00;51;09
Rob Wilson
A thousand interviews.
02;00;51;09 – 02;01;06;29
David Lyons
That’s it at least. Yeah. And every one of them has to have a beau around them. Yeah. And that that’s a big deal that I always try to get across to people is a tip is something that might move But geez, or Pete don’t ever confuse that for a theory you had. Yeah I mean don’t don’t don’t paint that in a different way.
02;01;06;29 – 02;01;29;10
Rob Wilson
Well I’m sure you had some cases. I’ve had several where you get to a point in the investigation where you kind of hit the end of the road and it’s like, should we take this public, you know, put it on the news because you need their help, but you only want to viable tips because once it goes out there, you will you’ll get 100 or 200 leads and you have to follow up on every single one.
02;01;29;10 – 02;01;30;25
David Lyons
Yeah, they’ve all got to be wrapped up. Yeah.
02;01;30;26 – 02;01;43;07
Rob Wilson
Because if you don’t that one, if you have 200 tips and you only do 199, by the time it gets to trial, those defense attorneys will be convinced that that one person didn’t do was the real killer in we’ve wrongly arrested their client.
02;01;43;16 – 02;01;59;05
David Lyons
That’s even if it’s an unequivocal yes mean it’d be neat for people to experience that to be on the stand when that happens. But even if it’s an unequivocal I did it and the evidence is there, that’s their job. And you know, we’ve got great ones in town. I’m sure I’ll bring down our defense attorneys more than one contingent.
02;01;59;05 – 02;02;05;12
David Lyons
Yeah, they’re amazing people, but it needs stuff. So in that case. Yeah, that wraps up pretty quick then.
02;02;05;21 – 02;02;15;09
Rob Wilson
So yeah, the investigation part is actually in this one. It’s probably done in 4 to 5 days and that’s all the paperwork and everything, sending stuff off to the lab.
02;02;16;25 – 02;02;24;16
David Lyons
So you get to kick your feet up on the desk cause like, obviously there’s nothing else going on in town, right? Absolutely. That’s it. Like maybe two or three years, you’ll have it. I’m being facetious.
02;02;24;16 – 02;02;25;13
Wendy Lyons
Of course you are.
02;02;25;13 – 02;02;26;01
David Lyons
Exactly.
02;02;26;02 – 02;02;51;26
Rob Wilson
That is a then, you know, there’s the gallows humor in homicide. You have to have it. But it’s a good feeling when like you’re next up and you finally get one, it’s like, okay, this isn’t a whodunit. I can solve it, wrap it up pretty quickly. And then I go to the back of the line, you know, that’s maybe you get lucky and your numbers not called again for three months, four months.
02;02;52;09 – 02;03;00;15
Rob Wilson
So, you know, you’re not busting your butt on this unsolved murder because those are the worst when you get an unsolved and you’re still killing yourself and then you get another one.
02;03;00;24 – 02;03;13;28
David Lyons
Which is the nature. Yes, that’s it. That’s where all that loose ends. I think my land speed record one was a derby day where a guy got beat to get death with a two by four, a third straight. And I think I was able to be back home in about 4 hours.
02;03;14;03 – 02;03;14;24
Rob Wilson
Yeah, those are nice.
02;03;14;24 – 02;03;27;27
David Lyons
Yeah, exactly. I had some some stuff to do afterwards, but I had somebody in custody, I had statements, I had the physical evidence recovered and we got to it. But yeah, that never happened again. And you’re right. That’s the raking leaves on a windy day yet always coming in.
02;03;27;27 – 02;03;33;24
Rob Wilson
It’s a really good analogy because it it just doesn’t stop. You just hope for a breather from time to time.
02;03;34;08 – 02;03;49;24
David Lyons
And I think if somebody gets into the business, I think it’s a mistake they might make it. Don’t ever think you’re going to be done and kind of take it just it’s the nature of the beast. But when you do leave to this day and I’ve been gone a long time, I still will be out doing something and I’ll think about one of them that didn’t lay down.
02;03;49;24 – 02;03;53;11
David Lyons
You’re just always like, If I could get back and do this, I’d never leave you.
02;03;53;16 – 02;04;20;15
Rob Wilson
I’m pretty lucky that I think I’ve only have two unsolved in my career and I put them out. I work them to exhaustion. Yeah, like it’s just so I’m at peace that. But I still get I’ve been gone over a little over a year now and there’s still some PTSD. Like when I hear a certain phone, a ring type that that was my ring when I was in Homicide at 3 a.m., I’d hear the train.
02;04;20;24 – 02;04;26;08
Rob Wilson
And if I hear that exact ring, it’s like it takes me back and I’m not happy about it exactly.
02;04;26;19 – 02;04;45;16
David Lyons
But I will say this I kind of miss it enough to where? Like when we were talking about David Callum’s family, we’ve met the Hastie family. Yeah. Which is South. A beautiful people that have a an adult son. We covered Michael Gormley that went missing and hasn’t been seen and there’s foul play all over that. There’s also a part that makes you sure work.
02;04;45;27 – 02;04;47;24
Rob Wilson
You never know. Goes away.
02;04;47;24 – 02;05;05;10
David Lyons
And that that’s an inside thing that you’re thinking wired or like if I’m listening to a good podcast myself again, I’m going to pitch culpable. It’s really good. The entire time I’m thinking, Boy, I would probably think about this. Yeah, it would be an avenue. So it’s it’s fun to think about, but you don’t have to go in and do it and you’re not bitching, get paid for it.
02;05;05;10 – 02;05;27;04
Rob Wilson
So I think Travis Holt, who’s a really good detective, I think he’s running cold case now. Right. Very sharp guy. And I’m sure he’ll do great at it. But I’ve other departments have a former homicide detectives come on as consultants. Right. And Florence Weathers is out there listening. You know, I’d be certainly happy to come back and review some cases because it is fun being part of it.
02;05;27;13 – 02;05;32;27
Rob Wilson
I just wouldn’t be the main one responsible. I’d just give some ideas and maybe some guidance and see where it goes.
02;05;32;27 – 02;05;51;05
David Lyons
Yeah, I, I won’t name any names, but I did get hit up by somebody several months ago and got to love him to death and he’s not there anymore. But he had an idea of having a an event where a lot of us going back as far back as we could get together, spent an entire day and just talk about what’s on that shelf.
02;05;51;07 – 02;05;57;08
David Lyons
Yeah. And I was like, brilliant. Well, that won’t happen. No, Right. It’s like, But if there is any neat concept.
02;05;57;10 – 02;06;21;15
Rob Wilson
Well, when they asked me to take over the Cold Case unit, I had the idea that because I think at the time we had 50 maybe unsolved murders going back to the seventies or eighties, what I wanted to do was take six weeks, not do a damn thing, but read every case file and put them in categories. It’s like, okay, these are potentially DNA cases, right?
02;06;21;16 – 02;06;51;21
Rob Wilson
Okay, we’ll set these aside and when I get to them, I’ll go through all the evidence and send a ton of stuff off to the lab. These are pounding the pavement cases like need to re-interview some people, maybe some new ones that they missed. They go over here and then there’s some that no fault of any detective. Sometimes the bad guy wins, they get the breaks, and there’s just hardly any sort of ability to those and set those aside so you can work on the ones that actually have a chance getting solvent.
02;06;51;21 – 02;07;09;05
Rob Wilson
First thing you do is you send all those off to the lab and hopefully you get a phone call or two and six months. It’s like, Hey, you know, this, this belongs to so-and-so, you know, and there’s the low hanging fruit, as they say. Sure. You know, it’s like, give me those any day of the week. I don’t need to beat my chest and say how great of an investigator I am.
02;07;09;07 – 02;07;11;14
Rob Wilson
Like, Now you give me a DNA hit and I’ll go put the cuffs on.
02;07;11;29 – 02;07;21;11
David Lyons
That and look at what it does for the family. Absolutely. I mean, that that and it it yeah. Whether it’s low hanging fruit or hanging fruit, I think that the name of the game is a game is to see many dollars you can get.
02;07;21;11 – 02;07;51;02
Rob Wilson
Yeah. We just I just finished up a a couple pled guilty to a cold case murder that happened in 2010. Um yeah, that’s when I made contact with the victim’s daughter. I knocked on her door and told her who I was, and she was like, Don’t get me involved unless you believe you can solve this. Cause I’d already come to a certain amount of peace with it, right?
02;07;51;03 – 02;08;09;24
Rob Wilson
I don’t want to live through it again if nothing’s going to happen. And that’s tough because I had this not like I can’t promise you anything. All I can promise you this. I’m going to give it my all and I’ll keep you in the loop every step of the way. And I was I was fairly confident. I knew who did.
02;08;09;24 – 02;08;19;10
Rob Wilson
And, you know, we had some avenues to go to get some some information. And luckily we were able to make it happen. But yeah, she was she was scared that I was opening up the case again. Actually.
02;08;19;10 – 02;08;24;11
David Lyons
But everybody metabolisms metabolizes that in a different way. And I could see that I could see where that.
02;08;24;12 – 02;08;27;05
Rob Wilson
Yeah, she’s like, don’t make me go through it again if nothing’s going to happen.
02;08;27;05 – 02;08;27;16
David Lyons
Right?
02;08;27;25 – 02;08;39;14
Rob Wilson
So that was a real relief off my shoulders when we finally got the the arrest of the two individuals. And yeah, she was very grateful and, and also frustrated that it took 13 years, you know, Absolutely crazy.
02;08;39;17 – 02;08;52;24
David Lyons
Well, let’s go back to this one. Sure. It didn’t take 13 it thank God for the family on that is where do we go now if a pretty pretty quick investigation get some things back, some lab work. You got your autopsy reports on everything. What happens next?
02;08;52;26 – 02;08;59;12
Wendy Lyons
Hey, you know, there’s more to the story, so go download the next episode. Like the true crime fan that you are.
02;08;59;12 – 02;09;32;10
David Lyons
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It has produced and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at Murder Police Podcast dot com, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police podcast Merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.
02;09;32;23 – 02;09;56;12
David Lyons
We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired, just search for the Murder Police podcast and you will find us. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on, Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.
02;09;56;24 – 02;10;00;05
David Lyons
And please your friends, lock it down. Judy.
Part 3
Part 4
00:00:01:20 – 00:00:16:00
Jai Hamilton
And there was also a study in 2019 by Shelby MacDonald, and she came out with a study that showed that 75% of battered women who had pets reported that the pet was threatened or intentionally harmed by their partner.
00:00:16:22 – 00:00:17:06
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:00:17:18 – 00:00:25:09
Jai Hamilton
And equally disturbing is that the abuse towards the pet was done in front of children 90% of the time.
00:00:25:20 – 00:00:31:00
Wendy Lyons
Warrning, The podcast you’re about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults,Murder and. Adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Todd Schumacher. Part four.
00:01:03:14 – 00:01:32:20
Wendy Lyons
Welcome back, listeners. Thank you so much for joining us on the fourth and final episode of the murder of Todd Schumacher. We were supposed to have Detective Rob Wilson with us this evening as we were recording. And Rob had something unexpected come up. So he is not with us. However, if you recall on the recordings of Todd Schumacher, we learned about Todd’s dog, Munro, in the cliffhanger which was placed in the oven.
00:01:33:17 – 00:01:41:17
Wendy Lyons
And our special guest we have with us this evening is Lieutenant Jay Hamilton with the Lexington Animal Control. Thank you, Guy.
00:01:41:23 – 00:01:42:22
Jai Hamilton
Thank you for having me.
00:01:42:22 – 00:02:05:06
Wendy Lyons
For coming here. We we learn about your name. As I said when we were talking about Munro in our our awesome cliffhanger that that Rob did. And I understand you got involved in that. Is that right? Yes, I thought so. Well, before we dive into how you got involved, why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and what you do for Lexington and your role?
00:02:05:20 – 00:02:14:06
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So I am the cruelty investigator for Lexington Animal Control. So I handle all the cruelty calls that come in for Lexington.
00:02:15:00 – 00:02:17:07
Wendy Lyons
And you’ve been there for quite a while, I understand.
00:02:17:08 – 00:02:18:14
Jai Hamilton
Almost 15 years.
00:02:18:23 – 00:02:20:28
Wendy Lyons
Tell us how you got started with that.
00:02:21:15 – 00:02:45:17
Jai Hamilton
So I graduated from UK in psychology and I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. But I’ve always loved animals, so I thought, why not get a job at the animal shelter? So I was originally hired on as an adoption specialist, but then the human resources girl said, I, I have to hire an animal control officer too, and very begrudgingly.
00:02:45:17 – 00:03:03:25
Jai Hamilton
And I said, Well, what’s involved in that? And she said, running calls, being out in the public, working with aggressive animals, bite cases, cruelty cases, you’ll get dirty. People will yell at you. I don’t think you’ll like it. But I said, that sounds like a lot of fun. And then that that is where my career started.
00:03:04:02 – 00:03:29:03
Wendy Lyons
And now you’re a lieutenant, huh? Awesome. Well, why don’t you tell us before we dive into this case? Untied Schumacher, You have a pretty cool hobby that I’m pretty envious of. Why don’t you tell us about your hobby, what you like to do in your free time and your awesome dog, Reckless and his Instagram page.
00:03:29:16 – 00:03:55:27
Jai Hamilton
Of course, I love talking about my dog Reckless, so I train personal protection dogs for a company. The company is called Protection Dog Sales and we’re located here in Kentucky. The owner of the business is David Harris. He has a lot of videos on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. Protection Dog sales dot com. In my personal time, I train dogs for him, but I also have my own dog that I’ve trained for competition.
00:03:56:07 – 00:04:19:17
Jai Hamilton
So I do something called Working Dogs of America and we train in obedience and protection scenarios. So police like scenarios. So I have a lot of cool videos and cute videos. Two of my dog and his Instagram page is reckless, underscore, vomit, underscore Logan, Hoss Logan, N.H. a U.S..
00:04:20:05 – 00:04:25:22
Wendy Lyons
I’ve noticed those fancy dogs like that have those vines. And that’s right, bombs and horses in there.
00:04:25:25 – 00:04:27:05
Jai Hamilton
Very fancy kennel name.
00:04:27:09 – 00:04:39:11
Wendy Lyons
I think it must be. Well, so your dog he he as I’ve seen in some of those videos that we watched prior to our taping this evening, he really clips down on people.
00:04:39:15 – 00:04:40:02
Jai Hamilton
Oh yeah.
00:04:40:09 – 00:04:42:14
Wendy Lyons
So all that’s on command, right?
00:04:42:14 – 00:04:43:16
Jai Hamilton
That’s right. But only bad.
00:04:43:16 – 00:04:49:01
Wendy Lyons
Guys. Only bad guys. So he can he can come off of that person as quickly as he went on.
00:04:49:09 – 00:05:09:15
Jai Hamilton
Huh. So we really balance control and power. That’s the art of it, right? You have a dog that’s super powerful, loves to bite, loves to chase all that pre-draft, but you can reign them in and you can be completely obedient to you. You can have bad guy in a suit running around yelling, but he’s going to be completely neutral until I give him the command.
00:05:09:29 – 00:05:10:29
Jai Hamilton
How need?
00:05:11:22 – 00:05:21:16
Wendy Lyons
Well, we certainly need to spend some more time with you. And I’d love to watch Mr. Reckless work some time. Not on me, but I’m not sure what you think.
00:05:21:16 – 00:05:37:23
David Lyons
You should be in a ring. Suit it. But thanks for coming to. And again, Rob was going to be here. He had something come up because he loved working with you on the case and the whole perspective. And again, what we want to talk about is when different parts of government come together to work for the same thing.
00:05:37:23 – 00:05:58:09
David Lyons
And this one kind of came together like that is with the services that Animal Control provided. I don’t know that I benefited from that, not just when I was an investigator, but any of the assignments I had to. But tell everybody what animal control, specifically in Lexington. And as you can speak to that, what does animal control do from the simplest thing to the biggest thing?
00:05:58:09 – 00:05:59:03
David Lyons
What’s it all about?
00:05:59:18 – 00:06:16:01
Jai Hamilton
Yeah, so we handle all animal related complaints for the city of Lexington. So anything from loose dogs to sick animals, injured animals, animal rescues, bite cases and cruelty cases. So anytime an animal needs help, call animal control.
00:06:16:23 – 00:06:28:13
Wendy Lyons
So the neighbor has a dog out and it’s ten below zero and it has no shelter. You handle that. And likewise, it’s in the sweltering heat and there’s no water in the bowl and it’s chained to a tree. You handle that.
00:06:28:15 – 00:06:29:03
Jai Hamilton
Exactly.
00:06:29:03 – 00:06:35:00
Wendy Lyons
So I imagine you probably get some pretty irate owners when you come around talking about, I’m going to take your dog.
00:06:35:19 – 00:06:46:10
Jai Hamilton
Definitely. Yeah. It’s one of those professions where no one’s ever really happy because a complaint in calls because something horrible is going on. And we weren’t there to stop it before we knew about it.
00:06:46:10 – 00:06:52:12
David Lyons
Yeah, the only people that got is firemen. They nailed that up a long time ago and we’re still ambiguous about that. Is that. Yeah.
00:06:52:14 – 00:06:53:03
Jai Hamilton
And then.
00:06:53:03 – 00:06:53:25
David Lyons
The heroes.
00:06:54:03 – 00:07:14:18
Jai Hamilton
We get on scene and owners like you’re doing too much. So nobody’s ever really happy, right? Right. But we do what we can with the laws that we have in Kentucky has not so great laws. There’s a lot to be desired. But, you know, there are minimal standards of care. And so we make sure that that’s being followed sometimes.
00:07:14:21 – 00:07:22:04
Jai Hamilton
You know, there’s lots of situations that I don’t think is fair, but I can’t necessarily do anything. My hands are tied because our laws are pretty lax.
00:07:22:04 – 00:07:40:00
David Lyons
But that’s true with anything you’re doing. The criminal justice system, whether it’s animal control or law enforcement or anything, is that it? There’s a coloring book and you have to stay inside the lines. And that’s a great attitude to have, because if you get frustrated with it, you’ll wear yourself out. But until things change, you have to work inside and color inside those lines, too.
00:07:40:00 – 00:07:45:00
David Lyons
So it how many people do this and in Lexington for how many people you work with.
00:07:45:07 – 00:07:47:01
Jai Hamilton
So we have 16 officers.
00:07:47:15 – 00:07:48:09
David Lyons
16.
00:07:48:09 – 00:07:48:20
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:07:48:21 – 00:08:03:20
David Lyons
Yeah. Think about this. And just for perspective, 16 people, population probably humming around 330,000. Maybe I could be wrong. 280 square miles, I think. I think it’s a pretty good sized metropolis. And I’m like 16 people.
00:08:03:29 – 00:08:08:04
Jai Hamilton
So we’re 24 hours a day. Oh, every day.
00:08:08:04 – 00:08:13:19
David Lyons
Yeah. So you stay busy, All right? Any idea how many cases you had on a year? Like how many, how many.
00:08:13:19 – 00:08:16:05
Jai Hamilton
Calls? Not off the top of my head.
00:08:16:12 – 00:08:18:00
David Lyons
But there’s not a lot of dead time, right?
00:08:18:12 – 00:08:28:23
Jai Hamilton
No, absolutely not. There we go. We have a dispatcher. We’re like a mini police department. We have a dispatcher. We have calls pending. We have I mean, I start my shift and I’m called a call to call.
00:08:29:03 – 00:08:29:21
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:08:29:21 – 00:08:47:01
David Lyons
Good for you guys. Do excellent work for sure. And again, that’s that’s what we’re coming to on this case is where the it folds over a different things and and get to work. And again Rob spoke highly of you. The only thing we did wrong probably in the last episode is a butchered your first name. And I apologize that I apologized before I wouldn’t.
00:08:47:01 – 00:08:54:10
Wendy Lyons
Even embarrass myself. Maybe the listeners don’t remember it. Don’t you go right on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell our listeners what you call vulnerability.
00:08:54:10 – 00:08:54:28
David Lyons
Thank you for.
00:08:55:00 – 00:09:05:12
Wendy Lyons
No, it’s code. You messed up. Exactly. I’ll tell the listeners. He called her child was in the T. Yeah. However, I kept saying it starts with a J it’s got to be GI. And you said No, I.
00:09:05:12 – 00:09:05:26
David Lyons
Thought it was my.
00:09:05:26 – 00:09:07:20
Wendy Lyons
Friend. Complex Chai US.
00:09:07:21 – 00:09:08:07
David Lyons
Exactly.
00:09:08:15 – 00:09:25:25
Wendy Lyons
J Don’t make that sound. And you said, I’m telling you it’s Chai Yeah. So I was so embarrassed when I said this evening. Well, actually, I really wasn’t asked. Can you tell me how to properly pronounce your name? To which she said, GI. And I looked at you and I think I just smiled. I don’t know. Maybe I rolled my eyes.
00:09:25:25 – 00:09:29:00
Wendy Lyons
Probably. But it is gi. Yeah, that’s right.
00:09:29:00 – 00:09:35:28
David Lyons
There might have been some weird American sign language with one finger. I can’t remember, but it’s usually like that anyway. But anyway, we digress.
00:09:35:28 – 00:09:36:09
Wendy Lyons
Yeah.
00:09:36:14 – 00:09:59:14
David Lyons
Yeah. GI So thanks for coming in talking about this stuff because this case again, when he was talking about his and I think I get the listeners attention it’s it’s bad enough you have a person that’s been murdered and I don’t think people compare them this way, but a dog gets put in an oven and and that that rattles people just as much as the other.
00:09:59:14 – 00:10:09:24
David Lyons
So can you tell us how you got involved with the case? How did how did you how did you learn of it? And when tell us the ins and outs on that.
00:10:10:05 – 00:10:40:28
Jai Hamilton
So before the murder, we were contacted in September of 2014 by an emergency vet clinic, and they had said that Todd had brought his dog, Monroe, who’s a beagle mix to the emergency clinic, because his boyfriend Matt, had put him in the oven. So we went out there and investigated that Monroe was okay. Overall, he had some burns on his pop pads and he had singed hair, but he survived that.
00:10:40:28 – 00:10:52:20
Jai Hamilton
And we also went to the home and took a look at the oven, found what we think is a lot of dog hair inside of the oven. So it’s pretty, pretty unique. It’s a strange situation.
00:10:53:13 – 00:10:57:14
Wendy Lyons
Yeah. It’s not every day you think of putting a pet in an oven.
00:10:57:15 – 00:10:59:07
Jai Hamilton
I would never think of that.
00:10:59:25 – 00:11:10:29
Wendy Lyons
I mean, you have to think what sick person does that? So did you conduct an investigation or did you get to talk to either of the guys about this?
00:11:11:06 – 00:11:35:09
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So a couple days after Todd and Matt both came into animal control and Todd once said that he wanted to be there for Matt and that this was, you know, a terrible thing that had happened, that he was going to confess to the crime they were going to take whatever punishment that was waiting and that they were going to move forward with their lives together.
00:11:35:19 – 00:11:56:09
Jai Hamilton
So I think he was really in this role of wanting to help him and be a better person. And this was like a low point in Matt’s life, right? So they both came in and Todd has a very large, handsome, almost cowboy character. And Matt is this really small, like dark, kind of pale. I would never put the two together.
00:11:57:11 – 00:12:18:16
Jai Hamilton
So we did the interview and Matt did say that he that they had been fighting, they had moved in together, that he had been fighting with Todd a lot, that Todd had went to work. He had made a pizza. And after he’d made the pizza, he put Monroe into a hot oven.
00:12:18:16 – 00:12:20:07
Wendy Lyons
Did he give a reason why?
00:12:21:13 – 00:12:30:03
Jai Hamilton
So he made it very clear that it was nothing that Monroe did. He wasn’t mad at Monroe, but he was mad at Todd.
00:12:30:20 – 00:12:36:04
Wendy Lyons
So he’s going to pay Todd back and punish Todd by Hard and.
00:12:36:04 – 00:12:39:13
Jai Hamilton
His Monroe, which would ultimately hurt Todd the worst.
00:12:40:00 – 00:12:45:02
David Lyons
Do you see that in domestic violence? Do you see a connection or a nexus in domestic violence cases? With that.
00:12:45:06 – 00:13:12:03
Jai Hamilton
There is definitely a link between the two. There’s actually been a lot of studies on this. They found that animal abuse is either predictive or co-occurring with interpersonal violence. And there was also a study in 2019 by Shelby MacDonald, and she came out with a study that showed that 75% of battered women who had pets reported that the pet was threatened or intentionally harmed by their partner.
00:13:12:25 – 00:13:19:21
Jai Hamilton
Wow. And equally disturbing is that the abuse towards the pet was done in front of children 90% of the time.
00:13:20:09 – 00:13:40:20
Wendy Lyons
Wow. So we sort of get at not only the other partner, but the children, because mommy, most often times children love their little pets. And so there’s a way to to really stick it to to the children into the family even more so they do it in front of the most innocent of all the children, and not to mention the poor animal.
00:13:41:07 – 00:13:45:00
Jai Hamilton
The more loved the pet is, the more vulnerable it is for abuse.
00:13:45:00 – 00:13:52:14
Wendy Lyons
So it’s mostly perhaps a jealousy. I’m going to you love your pet so good. So I’m going to take what your I’m going to hurt what you love the best.
00:13:53:01 – 00:13:53:11
Jai Hamilton
Yeah.
00:13:53:25 – 00:14:19:21
David Lyons
But that’s what harm is all about in the end. And again, that force multiplier, doing it in front of the kids, those are overwhelming numbers to those. Those are frightening actually. But and I never put that together. I guess it comes in that category of you don’t know if you don’t know. And I think it emphasizes why police departments partnered or close with animal control agencies because there we have another indicator, maybe a potential indicator of things in domestic violence.
00:14:19:21 – 00:14:41:01
David Lyons
So if you had a a person who a friend of yours that you suspect could be a victim and they start throwing things in like, well, the other night, he or she did this to Fluffy or Buffy or whatever, that that that might start registering a little bit. I never knew over 70%. I mean, that’s crazy. Like almost routine.
00:14:41:01 – 00:14:42:07
David Lyons
Frightening. Frightening.
00:14:42:09 – 00:15:01:07
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. And a lot of people a lot of battered people will delay leaving a situation because they’re afraid of what’s going to happen to the animals and they use that to control them. If you leave, what do you what do you think I’m going to do with Fluffy? Will he be home when you get home? Right. And so a lot of people won’t go to shelters because of that.
00:15:01:07 – 00:15:11:16
Jai Hamilton
But we’re lucky here in Lexington that our shelter does what they can to keep families together. So there’s different pathways to this, but they try to keep the pets with the victims.
00:15:11:24 – 00:15:20:01
Wendy Lyons
Now, you did tell us earlier prior to the show that there’s a law out now. Can you share that with us regarding the IPO’s?
00:15:20:01 – 00:15:26:26
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So last year Kentucky changed their law so that pets could be included in emergency protective orders.
00:15:27:16 – 00:15:28:19
Wendy Lyons
Yeah that’s really great.
00:15:29:03 – 00:15:47:22
David Lyons
Huge because when somebody comes down to the courthouse to do one of those one night if that’s their concern is that now the people that are taking that EPO in can offer that and say okay there’s there’s what a great way because that’s one of the things we do know where domestic violence on the forefront that was once that control was established it can be economic it can be emotional.
00:15:47:22 – 00:16:08:15
David Lyons
It can be anything as simple as the pet. Is that anything they can use as leverage. And now if you have a way to deal with that, that’s great. And with shelters that will, like you said, there’s a pathway for the shelter to do that. That’s excellent stuff. Very proud of Kentucky for for and that in there anything we can do to make a person feel more comfortable going to an EPA, that’s what matter.
00:16:08:15 – 00:16:16:01
Wendy Lyons
Now, I will say on the flip side of that, you know, I learned that their requirements are so bare minimum. It’s almost disgusting.
00:16:16:08 – 00:16:16:16
David Lyons
Yeah.
00:16:16:27 – 00:16:31:04
Wendy Lyons
But they require just some little bit of basic food, water and what they consider shelter, which is not what I would often consider a shelter for a pet. And that’s kind of sad that there’s no stiffer rules or laws on.
00:16:31:04 – 00:16:51:28
David Lyons
Yeah. Talk a little bit about and not to throw Kentucky down because it’s probably that way across the country, but talk about that minimalistic approach to the law on when it becomes something that you all can come in as animal control and act, because that’s a lot like being frustrated with laws against humans that you’re like, you take what before we can do that, talk a little bit about with that.
00:16:51:28 – 00:17:14:11
Jai Hamilton
So I want to say Kentucky’s 46 out of 50 when you rank the animal cruelty law. So there is a lot to be desired. The laws are either very basic or so poorly written that they’re hard to enforce. So as far as like failure to provide, I mean, it’s pretty minimal, right? Food, water, shelter, vet care when needed.
00:17:14:19 – 00:17:23:02
Jai Hamilton
But the majority of our complaints are neglect cases. And then we have, you know, a small percentage that is intentional abuse.
00:17:24:06 – 00:17:49:24
Wendy Lyons
You know, and that is really kind of it’s kind of a little bit embarrassing. You said 46 out of 50. That’s you know, it is very sad that that people don’t take into consideration the preemptive things that happened prior to animal abuse. What is what people are capable of. If you’re if you’re willing to stick a dog in an oven, obviously, we know what happened to Todd Schumacher.
00:17:49:24 – 00:18:11:26
Wendy Lyons
He was brutally stabbed over 100 times by the same person that with the dog in the oven, you know, And David and I went out just a few months ago, a couple of months ago, to California, and we were amazed at how well we stayed at some very high end Marriotts Inn, Ritz-Carlton, even they people just had their dogs in there.
00:18:11:26 – 00:18:32:21
Wendy Lyons
And we were talking about how great it was that they welcomed them. And and, you know, everyone knows I love children. I own child care centers for a living. But we often talk about how sorry parents, how the dogs are better behaved than the kids. You see these people in there and the dogs are just on like a set stay or they’re just down.
00:18:32:21 – 00:18:54:14
Wendy Lyons
I mean, they’re maybe wagging to tell, but they’re not jumping off the, you know, Ottoman over there like little Bobby is because his mommy thinks that it’s so cute and she’s applauding him and he’s still doing it and driving the rest of us crazy. But we were so happy with how many restaurants and hotels they just had the little dogs in their little bowls.
00:18:54:15 – 00:18:55:04
Wendy Lyons
You know, it was.
00:18:55:23 – 00:19:15:16
David Lyons
It was neat. And hats off because we have a lot of people in California listen to the show and hats off to him. But it was overwhelming. I mean, it was like it was I mean, you would smile because you’d go in one of these hotels or a restaurant. It was like crazy. I had a great aunt when I was growing up that could not turn a stray away and and married.
00:19:15:16 – 00:19:31:03
David Lyons
And she had a little beer joint local called the Five Point Inn. And she always had four or five dogs in there and fans. So hair was blowing. And her thing was, if you don’t like the hair found somewhere else, they oh, God, she was that way. You loved her at one time. She had 17 dogs in her house.
00:19:31:03 – 00:19:45:14
David Lyons
And when the neighbors complained, she secretly and that on a download went and got a kennel license. I mean, Mary could not turn somebody away. So to be out there in California, what I think you’re seeing and I saw was they really have elevated dogs that were out. Yeah.
00:19:45:18 – 00:19:46:01
Wendy Lyons
Yeah.
00:19:46:01 – 00:20:15:13
David Lyons
Anyway. And so again to see somebody treat that a dog that way in our society is just nuts. And, you know, we we’ve always talked about I think most people know the connections between animal abuse and, for example, serial killers. That’s like textbook. Anybody can pick that up and run and it makes a lot of sense. But this nexus and the domestic violence that’s a little bit different because domestic violence is a little bit obviously, it’s not like serial killing, but what a neat marker.
00:20:15:16 – 00:20:32:28
David Lyons
I I’m trying to think back on domestic violence cases. I had to see. I can’t but we weren’t registering it. So, you know, I think for somebody in the game today, that should be something to pay attention to. Yeah, definitely an indicator. But yes, you would love my memory she was amazing loved and.
00:20:32:28 – 00:20:33:26
Wendy Lyons
The dogs in California.
00:20:34:04 – 00:20:35:26
David Lyons
Oh yeah. Hats off everywhere.
00:20:36:07 – 00:20:37:06
Wendy Lyons
Airports, everywhere.
00:20:37:07 – 00:20:38:01
David Lyons
Oh, they’ve nailed it.
00:20:38:02 – 00:20:53:09
Wendy Lyons
They’ve never been so happy. Yeah. Riding their tails just so happy. It’s it was very nice to see how they welcome them. And then it’s kind of embarrassing to know that we’re 46 out of 50 and we just provide food, water and what have as shelters considered shelter.
00:20:53:09 – 00:21:14:05
David Lyons
So it’s a lot like every other law. IT law. There’s always that fine point when when does law become something that’s culturally acceptable with morality? Was with a group of people and when does it go into actually even though we all in this room, we agree that it’s not enough, but man, there’s always that sweet spot that we’re trying to make for criminal.
00:21:14:09 – 00:21:36:07
David Lyons
That’s it. And when do you take somebody who is just has enough to feed care? I mean, in some cases that probably works well, but it’s the people that are probably on the other side of that to benefit from their effort. But that’s true in in human law, too, right? Is when you’re on the edge and you’re like, hmm, not quite, they’re not quite there, but what a nexus into that.
00:21:37:21 – 00:21:48:13
David Lyons
So you’ve got to meet. I shouldn’t say that you met the the victim of this crime. Hmm. Unbelievable. Not not knowing anything that was about to come to his life.
00:21:48:20 – 00:22:00:00
Wendy Lyons
Now, I believe you had told us also. Can you share with us how the murder trial of Todd. They went and reference the past with Monroe.
00:22:00:01 – 00:22:15:05
David Lyons
Good. Good question. Because I was going to ask to like how these things because you’re ramping up. And at the end, I guess it’s pretrial after pretrial After pretrial, right. I mean, that’s the story of our life. I know what happened in murder cases. I didn’t would never have dreamed in this that we could keep stall on the bus.
00:22:15:05 – 00:22:21:17
David Lyons
But so, okay, it’s running through and it’s going through and then, boom. How did how did you find out that a murder occurred?
00:22:21:17 – 00:22:42:27
Jai Hamilton
So after the interview, we charged Matt with torture to animals. And that was he pled not guilty in arraignment. And then they have a pretrial date. Pretrial date, Pretrial date. And so this is about eight months in. Right. So no court resolution, but still in the hands of the court. And I was just scrolling through my phone and I saw on the news that there was a murder on the long drive.
00:22:43:02 – 00:22:46:18
Jai Hamilton
And I instantly knew that these were Monroe’s people.
00:22:47:15 – 00:23:00:19
Wendy Lyons
You just knew. So so when that happened, I believe you had said that they couldn’t look into what had happened prior with Monroe. They wouldn’t bring that end to the murder.
00:23:00:25 – 00:23:20:07
Jai Hamilton
Yeah, right. So that was so surprising to me because that was 2015. I had never been to a jury trial. I had never testified. I was just going to watch to see the process. Right. Because we were involved in it to some degree. And when I heard that they wouldn’t allow any testimony about Monroe, I couldn’t believe it.
00:23:20:27 – 00:23:24:17
Jai Hamilton
Because to me, that’s a pattern of behavior. Yes, that’s a character thing.
00:23:24:24 – 00:23:44:09
Wendy Lyons
That’s right. And it led up to it because that was a way of domestic abusing Todd by means of his dog until it escalated that he ultimately killed him. Yeah. So you would think why would you not look into the past history of this person? Yeah, because that was, I think, a precursor to what was about to happen.
00:23:44:09 – 00:23:45:12
Jai Hamilton
I completely agree.
00:23:45:17 – 00:23:49:21
David Lyons
And what I think you said you were with Rob Wilson. What Rob tell you about that?
00:23:49:25 – 00:23:51:03
Jai Hamilton
Because that. That’s normal.
00:23:51:09 – 00:23:51:29
David Lyons
Yes. Yeah.
00:23:52:00 – 00:23:52:15
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:23:53:03 – 00:23:53:10
Jai Hamilton
Well.
00:23:54:03 – 00:24:15:00
David Lyons
Prejudicial stuff. I mean, it’s a it’s a tough thing. And again, just like we talked about, you have to have the coloring book and kind of live. And even what’s frustrating is that it’s really tough. It’s the whole concept of what a fair trial is based on. That’s the tricky part about this business is stomaching that is knowing and not being able to say that.
00:24:15:00 – 00:24:35:05
David Lyons
And I can take it a step further. It’s so, so like when you testify, it’s like a landmine. And and I’ve seen it happen for if if, if you testified in a murder trial, if, for example, Rob or any of the other investigators had just mentioned that mistrial, it would have been fast. It would have been objection in it.
00:24:35:05 – 00:24:56:10
David Lyons
Why would it come down way? Because I’ve even seen, for example, you’re going to have a murder suspect on trial patrol, picks him up on a warrant. Just a warrant. And I saw it happen one time and if the officer gets on her and some defense attorneys, they’re gifted about trying to walk into this. If the officer drops their garden, they say, well, how did you encounter him?
00:24:56:10 – 00:25:13:29
David Lyons
And they said, well, he had this misdemeanor warrant. Objection, bond, New trial. Same thing goes when when people talk about Miranda, you have the right to say anything. You say will be used against in a court of law. That’s not true. Is that. But by the time the jury gets that statement that we make, they’re going to redact it.
00:25:14:07 – 00:25:26:21
David Lyons
Because if the person says, well, I was in jail three times, that goes away. You see what I’m saying? So that’s hard. Yeah, that’s hard in any end. You’re right. Is now we’re looking back. We know that’s a prior preceptor that. Yeah.
00:25:26:24 – 00:25:31:01
Jai Hamilton
And if the jury would have known, I believe there would have been a very different outcome.
00:25:31:02 – 00:25:49:13
David Lyons
Exactly. Yeah. Because that Rob in the last episode is that we respect the system. But every now and then, like he said, that jury got it wrong. And I’ve seen it before too, is he said that they bought his act and you may be able speak to that about the idea of how convincing a guy like that is when you’re interfering.
00:25:49:13 – 00:25:50:26
David Lyons
Mom, put any dog in the oven.
00:25:50:26 – 00:26:11:24
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So they really sold this idea of it being an isolated incident. So Matt, although he admitted to what he had done, said that he was drunk, he had come off his meds, that he had a mental break, that this happened, but he had went to seek help after he had checked himself into the reg, which is the mental health facility here.
00:26:12:05 – 00:26:16:13
Jai Hamilton
And he got put on different meds, he went to counseling and that this was an isolated incident.
00:26:16:13 – 00:26:17:16
Wendy Lyons
And he’s all better now.
00:26:17:17 – 00:26:23:22
Jai Hamilton
Yeah, he’s a good person. He loves the animals. It won’t happen again. And Todd wanted to believe in the good in him.
00:26:24:06 – 00:26:25:15
David Lyons
Hmm.
00:26:25:15 – 00:26:34:23
Wendy Lyons
Like most domestic victims. Yeah. They want to believe that something, you know, they’re going to change. Yeah, it’s going to be different this time. They really want to believe that.
00:26:34:28 – 00:26:35:18
David Lyons
How sad.
00:26:35:21 – 00:26:52:10
Wendy Lyons
And it is very sad because it makes you wonder, were there any episodes after you came in contact with Todd and Matt or had it happened prior? But maybe there were no injuries on Monroe. Maybe it was a kicking when Todd wasn’t around or threatening.
00:26:52:17 – 00:27:12:19
Jai Hamilton
So you’re right there probably was other things and we just don’t know about it. I will say that I found out from the family that after Todd was found murdered, the family had told me that Monroe had gone missing several days before the murder. They suspect that there was an argument about where is Monroe, what happened to Monroe.
00:27:13:12 – 00:27:16:28
Jai Hamilton
They believe that Matt killed Monroe, and we never did find Monroe after.
00:27:17:07 – 00:27:19:19
Wendy Lyons
Wow. Wow.
00:27:19:19 – 00:27:22:17
David Lyons
How anybody would put him in a hot oven. Yeah, would.
00:27:22:17 – 00:27:51:22
Wendy Lyons
Probably. Oh, I’m sure. And, you know, who knows? Maybe that’s what escalated to the fight, as we know. You know, with some of the victims, it’s, you know, when they finally say they’re leaving, maybe maybe it escalated over Monroe and it just got out of hand. Who knows? Of course, we’ll never know. But that’s so sad. That and, you know, just to think that Todd was probably looking so hard for Monroe, just hoping maybe out driving and searching, who knows?
00:27:52:06 – 00:28:01:25
Wendy Lyons
But to know that one person can take that Matt in this case and and use that against. Yeah, against Todd Yeah.
00:28:01:25 – 00:28:08:07
Jai Hamilton
Animals are used to control, manipulate and punish victims. And they’re really the perfect victim.
00:28:08:26 – 00:28:09:27
Wendy Lyons
Right? Because they can’t talk.
00:28:09:27 – 00:28:11:11
Jai Hamilton
They can’t tell anyone what happened.
00:28:11:21 – 00:28:14:13
Wendy Lyons
And most dogs are always happy to see you, even if you’re.
00:28:14:17 – 00:28:21:20
Jai Hamilton
Even if you are an abuser. We’ve had dogs being who were intentionally abused by their owner and they still love them.
00:28:21:26 – 00:28:40:19
David Lyons
Yeah, their unconditional love. It might be the only time that really exist on a planet. Well, they’ve got that right for sure, you know. But we have a miniature horse you met tonight, Polly. There was abused incredibly. And. And it’s taken a few years to get her to let us catch her and touch her and everything just because of that, that abuse of that trust.
00:28:41:06 – 00:29:04:02
David Lyons
But yeah, so it, it, so it it’s frustrating, right? It do you know, let me first say this is for the listeners that are interested in crime and the criminal justice system is go to a jury trial. Yeah. I mean, I’m not going to say you should spend your vacation there because it would probably take a vacation. But if people really want to know, go sit one.
00:29:04:06 – 00:29:13:05
David Lyons
Everything from opening from jury selection to opening arguments all the way to closing and in, learn how that works. It’s actually pretty fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:13:11 – 00:29:35:02
Wendy Lyons
Well, and likewise for people who like me to realize people like Jai’s position existed. If a person’s has a love for animals like you do and wants to protect them, how does a person do what you do? Do they just go apply at a shelter? How’s a person Do your job?
00:29:35:02 – 00:30:00:21
Jai Hamilton
Well, as far as like emotionally, I it can be hard. There’s going to be like good days and bad days. And I can’t save every single dog. I can’t get every animal out of a bad situation. So if I look at it as like an individual, I can say this animal’s life, then it means something. But when I think of it as a whole, it’s like you’re you’re spinning your wheels all the time, right?
00:30:01:27 – 00:30:18:06
Jai Hamilton
But I have really enjoyed seeking justice for the those who can’t speak for themselves. And that is really propelled me. And so if I can hold somebody accountable for something they thought they could get away with because it’s just an animal, then that is really my driving force behind what I do.
00:30:19:00 – 00:30:28:24
Wendy Lyons
So if a person wants to do your job is their college for it is with you, just go to your humane or animal control and say, I’d love to be an animal control officer.
00:30:28:24 – 00:30:42:07
Jai Hamilton
Yeah, so there’s different pathways to it. There are several national schools that you can take. A lot of animal controls don’t require it. We do a lot of training on the job, but you know, it’s all different depending on where you live.
00:30:42:07 – 00:31:05:01
David Lyons
Cool stuff, just because I think a lot of people probably are interested in that because I think if you my daughter Brooke, for example, left banking last year and got a job at a vet clinic and she loves animals that much. So it’s one of those things that draws you in and takes care of it. And again, my and Mary, 17 dogs in a house that was a zoo, literally.
00:31:05:08 – 00:31:13:26
David Lyons
It it was interesting to watch that inside that restaurant, too. And she always had a handful of dogs. She loved her. You know, her. You and I ate there.
00:31:14:08 – 00:31:15:19
Wendy Lyons
Which is eating there, presumably.
00:31:15:20 – 00:31:16:16
David Lyons
Because you hate her.
00:31:16:17 – 00:31:17:26
Wendy Lyons
I’m a little peculiar about here.
00:31:17:27 – 00:31:37:12
David Lyons
Oh, there was hair. You had hamburger or something. You want cheese or you want hair? Probably get both, you know, because it was just the way it was. But hey, Mary loved him. And you said something to you about how it’s it’s tough. But I think what you said, too, is understanding what your role is, what your limitations are, and is the resiliency aspect, because it’s true no matter what.
00:31:37:12 – 00:31:44:12
David Lyons
If you do anything in the investigative side, you’re not going to save the world. It’s little pieces at a time, right? Yeah, it’s one step.
00:31:44:19 – 00:32:02:21
Jai Hamilton
I have had so many cases where I in my heart, I know somebody did this, but I can’t get all those puzzle pieces to fall together. But then you have the cases where it does, and that is so exciting to be on that pathway and something unlocks. Another thing and all of a sudden you have a great case.
00:32:03:04 – 00:32:05:01
Jai Hamilton
So that is, that is something that’s really.
00:32:05:12 – 00:32:28:01
Wendy Lyons
Bring us together. If a person has their animal removed from for being abused, are there any laws or what do you do if somebody says, hey, they own dogs again and they’re abusing again? Are there any laws that maybe says you can’t own dogs anymore? Don’t let us find out. You owning like a felon with a handgun. Of course they’re going to carry on.
00:32:28:01 – 00:32:33:29
Wendy Lyons
They aren’t supposed to. But are there laws on behalf of animals that say you won’t own another one?
00:32:34:12 – 00:32:56:18
Jai Hamilton
That’s a really great question. So going back to Kentucky, being a terrible state for the animals, we do not have anything in our laws with the exception of the bestiality case that’s very well written that prohibits somebody from an animal abuser from owning animals. So even if it goes to a jury trial, the options are jail time or funds.
00:32:57:02 – 00:32:58:03
Wendy Lyons
But you can own again.
00:32:58:11 – 00:33:02:26
Jai Hamilton
But you can own the same in will you abused. There’s nothing that says you can’t have an animal back.
00:33:03:09 – 00:33:04:00
Wendy Lyons
Wow.
00:33:04:14 – 00:33:21:23
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. No. Sometimes we can reach an agreement and a plea deal, but that’s only two years. And a lot of times people get around that for the wording. Like they’ll say only service dogs, right? Or I don’t only dogs. These my roommate’s dogs. Okay. So there’s a lot of ways around the wording.
00:33:21:27 – 00:33:30:21
David Lyons
Yeah. So maybe people need to talk to their legislators. I mean, really, this is that thing that when somebody is running for election, Hey, by the way, what would you think about this?
00:33:30:21 – 00:33:39:15
Jai Hamilton
And there’s they are elected officials. So you call them and you tell them that these issues are important to me. They’re going to listen to you. They want to be reelected.
00:33:40:02 – 00:33:55:01
Wendy Lyons
Sure. Now, you did mention something that I didn’t want is to have to talk about on here. But since you’ve mentioned it, because we have you all, have you ever worked a case on that?
00:33:55:15 – 00:34:00:10
Jai Hamilton
We’ve had two recent cases involving allegations of bestiality.
00:34:01:03 – 00:34:09:09
Wendy Lyons
Wow. So what are the laws on that? I mean, what have you has it been prosecuted as anything been done?
00:34:09:09 – 00:34:29:21
Jai Hamilton
So in Kentucky? Yes, in Lexington, not yet. We actually had a case where we just submitted some DNA samples to the Casper lab, which is really exciting for us because that will be the first case that we’ve ever had a sample submitted. So we’ll see when that comes back. You know, it might open the case up. We might get a conviction out of that.
00:34:29:25 – 00:34:31:08
David Lyons
We have to stay in touch on that.
00:34:31:10 – 00:34:32:11
Wendy Lyons
Because sadly, this.
00:34:32:13 – 00:34:33:23
David Lyons
Will bring Marcy in.
00:34:34:06 – 00:34:35:23
Wendy Lyons
Because most of the DNA.
00:34:35:28 – 00:34:38:04
Jai Hamilton
Yeah, and I know Marcy, I’ve been in contact.
00:34:38:05 – 00:34:38:29
David Lyons
Oh, she’s great.
00:34:38:29 – 00:34:41:17
Jai Hamilton
She’s great, but she has no control conference.
00:34:41:25 – 00:34:43:12
David Lyons
There we go. And she’s coming back here.
00:34:43:12 – 00:34:44:14
Jai Hamilton
And I was amazed.
00:34:44:22 – 00:34:48:08
David Lyons
She’s a brilliant well, all of them up there. I just can’t say enough. Good.
00:34:48:09 – 00:34:49:10
Wendy Lyons
I’ll leave Laura out.
00:34:49:12 – 00:34:50:11
David Lyons
No, that’s what I’m saying.
00:34:50:19 – 00:34:51:22
Jai Hamilton
I don’t know anyone else.
00:34:51:22 – 00:34:52:26
David Lyons
I know we.
00:34:52:26 – 00:34:53:10
Wendy Lyons
Only know this.
00:34:53:13 – 00:34:59:14
David Lyons
But, I mean, me and Laura came up together from back in the day, so. Yes But it’s an amazing group of people.
00:34:59:21 – 00:35:05:01
Wendy Lyons
Now, if that person doesn’t get charged, they could get their dog back, even though you highly suspect it.
00:35:05:12 – 00:35:23:21
Jai Hamilton
So bestiality is the exception because it is a very well-written law and it’s a newer law. Okay. But every other law in Kentucky, there’s no provisions for like, you know, keeping someone away from the animal they abused. Not only animals, it’s literally just jail time and or a Oregon.
00:35:24:06 – 00:35:36:20
David Lyons
Well, maybe it could be a start. Sometimes you have to have that. Those things in front Canada boilerplate for that maybe it’ll be the start for the legislators to look at because they’d be good to see. So it’s just bizarre that we’re talking about DNA.
00:35:37:09 – 00:35:38:23
Wendy Lyons
With the dog. Look, we’re.
00:35:39:12 – 00:35:41:28
David Lyons
Looking for human DNA. Yeah, okay.
00:35:42:03 – 00:35:47:25
Wendy Lyons
I’m sorry, listeners, but that’s downright disgusting, don’t you? That’s. Yeah, that’s awful. Yeah, that’s awful.
00:35:47:29 – 00:35:57:10
Jai Hamilton
It is. Yeah. And they there is a documented link between people who have sex with animals and people who are into child sex crimes.
00:35:58:02 – 00:36:20:26
Wendy Lyons
I’m not surprised if you’re going to be sick enough to do it too. One, I’d say you’re sick enough to do it the other. DV There’s just no exceptions or anything people can say that will change my mind about that. And as our listeners know, I usually keep my opinions to myself regarding a lot of things, but the children and the bestiality, I’m sorry, that’s that’s there’s no no use for that.
00:36:20:26 – 00:36:21:20
Wendy Lyons
That’s disgusting.
00:36:21:20 – 00:36:23:05
Jai Hamilton
No, I agree for sure.
00:36:23:28 – 00:36:39:12
David Lyons
So it is far as we work through the case and in and again the frustration I’m not being will bring it in and I guess it couldn’t come up in sentencing either. I mean that that’s a well because it’s because he didn’t plea all rights right. Had he had had the case closed.
00:36:40:24 – 00:36:49:01
Jai Hamilton
So the case got taken from a murder to manslaughter. Gotcha. And then he got. Oh, you’re talking about the animal cruelty.
00:36:49:01 – 00:36:50:28
David Lyons
Yeah, but it all ties in together, I think.
00:36:50:28 – 00:36:53:14
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. And then he got two years for manslaughter.
00:36:53:17 – 00:36:53:28
David Lyons
Got.
00:36:54:29 – 00:36:58:07
Jai Hamilton
Him for I’m sorry. He I think it was sentenced to ten, but he only served two.
00:36:58:07 – 00:36:59:19
David Lyons
Sure, that would be about right.
00:36:59:19 – 00:37:10:02
Jai Hamilton
And then as far as the animal case, they just lumped the animal case on top of the murder case. So essentially he took a guilty plea, but they just like combined it with his jail time. He had already served.
00:37:10:05 – 00:37:10:29
Wendy Lyons
Oh, he’s out.
00:37:11:10 – 00:37:14:03
David Lyons
Yeah, that’s what Rob said. He’s probably out. He’s probably.
00:37:14:03 – 00:37:14:21
Jai Hamilton
Out now.
00:37:14:21 – 00:37:15:21
Wendy Lyons
Yeah, he’s out.
00:37:16:06 – 00:37:20:27
David Lyons
Yeah, That’s good. Yeah, that’s the reality of the game. Yeah. I think I’m right.
00:37:20:27 – 00:37:21:17
Wendy Lyons
Here in our jail, and.
00:37:21:28 – 00:37:26:28
David Lyons
I have I have very few people that I worked that are still in a penitentiary. Very few.
00:37:26:28 – 00:37:40:26
Wendy Lyons
So you help me understand this poor man was stabbed over 100 times and his dog was put in an oven and probably killed by the same person he served just a little handful of years.
00:37:41:09 – 00:37:41:24
Jai Hamilton
Correct.
00:37:43:02 – 00:37:45:09
Wendy Lyons
Does nobody see the problem with this? No.
00:37:45:21 – 00:38:10:01
David Lyons
No. Everybody sees the problem with that. It but the thing is, is it proper? And we probably could have researched it maybe I’ll put some on a website but credit time served crediting custody writing trial. Yeah all of that falls into that and everything but it’s like Rob said is that Rob and it’s not common of people do this but Rob said that he believes the jury got it wrong and he Borras act yeah they they they were buffoons and and swayed.
00:38:10:01 – 00:38:16:20
Wendy Lyons
Well and what a slap in the face it is to this man’s family There we go. How insulting.
00:38:16:20 – 00:38:21:12
Jai Hamilton
They I sat next to them as well at the trial and they were devastated sure.
00:38:21:20 – 00:38:31:19
David Lyons
Like and reasonable in the community again that there’s the community should be devastated. The community should be mad and communities need to start expecting more.
00:38:31:22 – 00:38:49:09
Wendy Lyons
Well, and not only that, because if he’s a great master manipulator and he meets another person and involves in a relationship with them, he’s likely going to explain his way of or not tell. And then there’s potentially more victims, just like all these tech abusers are. They got a next victim.
00:38:49:15 – 00:39:12:14
David Lyons
Become domestic abusers. Once somebody can take another person’s life and rest easy with it taken, the second, third, fourth and fifth and sixth will mean nothing to them. Right. If that did that and I’m not going out on soapbox about it, but absent real mental health issues, I mean real diagnosed mental health issues, that is being in a yang and if you’re capable of it, you are just flat out capable right.
00:39:12:23 – 00:39:32:04
David Lyons
You don’t look at it like you not do you now would die if we had to do that. Even if we were defending ourselves, it would crush us inside. People like that. When that silicone switch goes that that’s not even an issue. Sleeps well with it, Sleeps well with it. It’s people out there know people should be mad.
00:39:32:04 – 00:39:49:10
David Lyons
They should be mad. They should be mad that that we starting with things like animal abuse, I think people should be upset. The idea that we look at that lightly. Well, no, now we’re starting to get really good data. You shouldn’t have had to have it, but we’ve got data that shows that that’s a precursor to other violent behavior.
00:39:49:10 – 00:40:14:07
David Lyons
What’s comment? If you can do that to an animal, then then you can do that to a human and vice versa. So, yeah, those are the big things that the world’s I mean, we’re living in a time right now where people are killing or attempting to kill people at rates that have never happened before at younger ages. But that’s because we don’t have any consequence and we have we have a lack of morality.
00:40:14:09 – 00:40:21:02
Wendy Lyons
Well, when you’re serving two years for stabbing someone over a hundred times and putting a dog in an oven, there’s no consequence.
00:40:21:02 – 00:40:21:14
David Lyons
No.
00:40:21:29 – 00:40:23:17
Wendy Lyons
I mean, there is You could do life.
00:40:23:17 – 00:40:33:08
David Lyons
Life and Kentucky for years has been always kind of just anecdotally, we looked at seven years of where you get a life sentence and just life, seven years maybe.
00:40:33:19 – 00:40:51:01
Jai Hamilton
I mean you’ve heard of people saying that that that when things go to the court system, it’s a slap on the wrist. Yeah. So that’s a frustration that I have. And I know that the police officers. Sure. Well, it’s not just animal cases, but when you think of the crime committed and what the sentence is, is really justice.
00:40:51:28 – 00:40:56:14
David Lyons
That there we go. The big question, because that is the key word, justice. I want justice.
00:40:56:14 – 00:40:58:08
Jai Hamilton
But did we do enough for the victim?
00:40:58:13 – 00:41:02:23
Wendy Lyons
Well, I would venture to say that Todd Schumacher’s family did not feel it was.
00:41:03:03 – 00:41:31:02
David Lyons
Well, now and they got they got they really got shorted. God bless them. They got shorted it. It’s horrible. It it just it’s when you see it drop and fail like that, it it takes a little bit out of you and I talked about in one of those episodes watching some of the trials I had even. But even if people didn’t die and looking over and thinking, what made you think that you could come back so far away from what actually happened here when it was all proven?
00:41:31:02 – 00:41:59:27
David Lyons
It’s just crazy nuts it and when people say the justice system fails, I listen. If it goes to a jury trial, that’s like 6 to 12 people that fail. Let’s be honest, If it’s in district court, it’s six, it’s 12. And that’s the problem, is that God, if if people would just walk into a jury room and be more guarded and understand that the people, they’re going to be evaluating, they’re they’re not what you see in that room.
00:42:00:11 – 00:42:22:19
David Lyons
You know, you described Matt really well when you said he was darkening with pasty and end in and you juxtaposed him against Todd is I can guarantee you when he went to trial, he never had that impression. I mean, Mitch, you saw him in the moment and that and that’s again where people don’t that that’s what they don’t get.
00:42:22:19 – 00:42:27:14
David Lyons
I think that’s why body worn camera is so important, is that now juries are finally seeing people.
00:42:27:17 – 00:42:28:06
Jai Hamilton
Who they act.
00:42:28:09 – 00:42:28:27
Wendy Lyons
Yes.
00:42:29:05 – 00:42:31:12
Jai Hamilton
They actually are not the person.
00:42:31:14 – 00:42:40:07
David Lyons
That says, yeah, take the suit off in the Bible and make them buck naked, graze like a hog. Big, screaming like they’re crazy. And that’s what everybody was dealing with.
00:42:40:08 – 00:42:47:15
Jai Hamilton
Rob was talking about that he played the victim really well. Yeah. And that’s what he did with us. Well, that’s what did on the stand when.
00:42:47:15 – 00:42:57:23
Wendy Lyons
Again, I think it’s back to that manipulating people. I think he may be felt like if he could convince you all that he was so remorseful and he would never because he’s better now.
00:42:57:23 – 00:43:06:21
Jai Hamilton
So I wouldn’t say he was remorseful because he never did show he would inept, never did cry, shed a tear or say sorry, nothing like that. During the interview.
00:43:06:21 – 00:43:28:05
David Lyons
Perfect remorse. Wow, they’re not I’ve said it a thousand times. They’re not capable. If you’re capable of remorse, you probably won’t go there where you’re going to be, right? It’s not in them and that’s it. That’s what people don’t get, is that you’ll have people say, Oh, I’d rather him spend the life in jail so that they think about the now they don’t they think about what they did wrong.
00:43:28:21 – 00:43:38:19
David Lyons
And they probably get kind of kinky thinking about the things they did in all candor. And that’s that’s where people get it wrong, too, is that it? No, they’re not remorseful. Is that.
00:43:38:27 – 00:44:04:22
Wendy Lyons
Well, I think ultimately what it sends the message to that person, Todd, in this, I’m sorry, Robin, I am sorry. Not you, Rob Matt in this case or any other person who’s like that, who does something as heinous is if there’s so little consequence for it, is it I mean, why not do it again? Because you’re going to probably serve a couple more years again.
00:44:04:22 – 00:44:05:02
Wendy Lyons
Well, that’s.
00:44:05:03 – 00:44:30:11
David Lyons
Maybe that’s a decision. You know, we’ve talked about heaven and, you know, having a Commonwealth attorney and maybe some other people and and some of the best defense attorneys in town that I love and everything is that those are huge social issues we probably got to iron out is that if spies evaluate in a cookie jar in the cookie jars, you know, full of cookies and you don’t get into a lot of trouble than oof crazy stuff, we can’t solve all the problems tonight.
00:44:30:11 – 00:44:31:28
David Lyons
But these are these are valid question.
00:44:31:28 – 00:44:33:01
Wendy Lyons
Well, sure, try it.
00:44:33:01 – 00:44:49:04
David Lyons
But but you know what’s neat is you see it. I don’t look at animal abuse as being really, truly a lesser level than the other. It’s human behavior. It’s the justice system that we have play and work, and we all have to follow those same rules, which I think that’s why you always mark as beautiful over to animal control.
00:44:49:18 – 00:45:08:17
David Lyons
And the thing is, is that what’s on the other side of it is the things out of our control juries, things like that in the court system sometimes. So it good stuff. I had it. Thanks for trying. Sure. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. As we kind of wrap up before we fold up and.
00:45:08:17 – 00:45:10:26
Wendy Lyons
Everything, we had another question we was going to ask her.
00:45:11:23 – 00:45:12:05
David Lyons
Tell me.
00:45:12:22 – 00:45:13:22
Wendy Lyons
I’ll tell her. Yes.
00:45:14:09 – 00:45:14:25
David Lyons
Please do.
00:45:15:08 – 00:45:31:23
Wendy Lyons
What happens to pets when someone passes? When when an owner passes away? Oh, you will take care of those. Yeah. So homing those or what do you do if you are informed by the police that this owner has, you know, three puppies there? What do you do with that?
00:45:32:11 – 00:45:43:10
Jai Hamilton
We So if the police officer calls and needs assistance, we always go help in those kind of cases. We would bring them into the shelter and hold them for the next of kin.
00:45:43:10 – 00:45:56:04
David Lyons
Okay, Good question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I doubt I completely forgot about that because it’s where you is like and again, there we are is that you have some I don’t have like a relative right there. What happens to the dog as a cat.
00:45:56:05 – 00:46:09:03
Wendy Lyons
Well you know you always see on there’s some animal sights in Oman and they’ll try to adopt a ferret and they’ll say these things live 70 years. So you need to have a backup plan. Yeah, for sure. In case. In case the bird outlives you.
00:46:09:03 – 00:46:13:12
Jai Hamilton
And then they. They pick up on what you say and they start cussing.
00:46:13:12 – 00:46:14:28
David Lyons
Yes, there was a pet shop.
00:46:14:28 – 00:46:17:01
Jai Hamilton
Very careful what you say in front of a parent.
00:46:17:06 – 00:46:39:25
David Lyons
Yeah, it was funny. You got to go on too many tangents, but growing up Louisville, we lived in Crescent Hill and in Saint Matthew’s there was Hallas pet Shop and there was a huge parrot in there and we used to blame the kids that went to Trinity High School, but that would cuss like a sailor. And it was their whole thing was, Do I have time to go in a handler’s pet shop and get this parrot angry enough to cost me out?
00:46:39:25 – 00:46:58:04
David Lyons
That was a stupid thing. Yeah, that just you brought that up. But yeah, the idea that there we go. That there’s the brass tacks of death investigation. One of those things that people don’t think about. You go into her home and unfortunately, some guys lost their life regardless of how and a pets there. How do we take care of the pets?
00:46:58:06 – 00:47:16:17
David Lyons
Right. And and I know that officers took that to heart. That’s why they called animal control is you know it’s it’s like while you know somebody lost their life but there I had officer spend a lot of time waiting for you all to come because they were like we’ve got to home this dog or this cat or this.
00:47:16:18 – 00:47:18:02
Wendy Lyons
You can’t just leave it there. No.
00:47:18:12 – 00:47:38:13
David Lyons
Just the care. You know that That’s a neat things. What a great service, right? What a great services that is that people have that. So it let me ask you this, because we talked about I think you work for Wonderful boss. As far as your your dog training goes, if people really love animals GI, how can they help?
00:47:38:16 – 00:47:40:11
David Lyons
What what are some things they can do to help?
00:47:41:06 – 00:47:54:27
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So I always recommend that people donate to their local humane society or some sort of nonprofit that helps animals in Lexington, we have the Lexington Humane Society. And what was the second part of your question?
00:47:55:28 – 00:47:59:00
David Lyons
That’s a good question.
00:47:59:00 – 00:48:06:09
Wendy Lyons
It you both look at it. Yeah. Now really feel the pressure. Yeah. What can they do to help? You said donate to your local shelters.
00:48:06:18 – 00:48:12:18
Jai Hamilton
Second thing I was going to say is fostering your adopt Foster.
00:48:13:04 – 00:48:20:01
Wendy Lyons
And there’s so many sites out there that will say they’re looking for Foster. And then some get to have Foster to adopt you. Yeah, that little pet.
00:48:20:13 – 00:48:35:22
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. I mean, especially right now, every shelter is full. This is a nationwide problem. So after COVID hit, people are they can’t afford their animals anymore. They’re breeding out of control. So every place is full. So the more people can foster, the more lives can be saved.
00:48:35:28 – 00:48:40:23
David Lyons
Great. Yeah. And most places have a humane society pretty close to them. And.
00:48:41:16 – 00:49:07:10
Wendy Lyons
Well, then you also see, as I see or saw the other day, they said, you know, if you can’t adopt, maybe you could pay for an adoption of a dog for someone else. So that way maybe somebody really wants a pet. But, you know, if it’s a younger dog, I think those fees are a little more expensive. So if you cover that fee for someone you know, that’s someone may be more apt to take a pet knowing that they don’t have to pay five or $600.
00:49:07:10 – 00:49:16:19
Wendy Lyons
And I don’t think people realize how expensive it is for these shelters to spay neuter and get shots or treat any illnesses or worse.
00:49:16:22 – 00:49:17:04
David Lyons
Just to.
00:49:17:04 – 00:49:19:27
Wendy Lyons
Feel expensive. And the thing. Yeah, just.
00:49:19:27 – 00:49:21:07
David Lyons
To feed and give them a place.
00:49:21:10 – 00:49:40:11
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. And I know for Lexington, the cost for puppies are higher than adult dogs, but they the reason is to offset that cost for the dogs that are there longer. So they’ve had dogs there for years now they get enrichment. We’ve got a lot of volunteers that will take them out to hiking to stay in hotels. I mean.
00:49:40:17 – 00:49:45:20
Jai Hamilton
Oh yeah, in Lexington, the dogs have it made, but still they don’t have a family.
00:49:45:22 – 00:49:46:26
Wendy Lyons
Yeah.
00:49:46:26 – 00:50:02:04
David Lyons
Which is that’s what they’re called for, right? They got to be with a family. Well, excellent stuff. All right, When do you say goodbye? And I got to thank you again for coming in myself and in one more time, I think that for the Schumacher’s so many prayers and oh.
00:50:02:16 – 00:50:03:17
Wendy Lyons
My word, yes.
00:50:03:25 – 00:50:23:06
David Lyons
It losing somebody it definitely clearly a benevolent, loving human being. TODD Yeah, it’s one of those things where you’re like, I wish I’d met him seriously, as you think about that with these people and, and then for the bad shake they get on the justice side, which is the unfortunate part of the process, sometimes just a bad shape.
00:50:23:06 – 00:50:37:16
Wendy Lyons
What is that in your face exactly? Well, thank you so much. Before we close, please tell our listeners and watchers once more about reckless Instagram page.
00:50:38:00 – 00:50:52:10
Jai Hamilton
Of course, I love talking about my dog. Sure it is. His Instagram page is reckless with an R underscore vom v m underscore Logan also o g and h a U.S..
00:50:52:19 – 00:51:04:04
Wendy Lyons
So go follow reckless and if someone is looking for a protection dog, tell us once more the name of your site agency if they wanted to purchase a protection pet.
00:51:04:04 – 00:51:15:05
Jai Hamilton
Yeah. So these are family raised dogs that are good in all environments but will protect if the need arises in the website ads WW dot protection dog sales dot com.
00:51:15:05 – 00:51:15:28
Wendy Lyons
All right.
00:51:16:08 – 00:51:17:12
David Lyons
Fantastic thanks again.
00:51:17:19 – 00:51:34:13
Wendy Lyons
Thank you so much for coming to join us and thank you so much for what you do. The world needs people like you looking out for the animals who have nobody to speak for them. So thank you so much for joining us and for trying to be a voice for poor Monroe when he was still around.
00:51:35:06 – 00:52:08:02
David Lyons
The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It has produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at Murder Police podcast ABC.com, where you will find Shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police podcast Merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.
00:52:08:16 – 00:52:43:23
David Lyons
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